4.2 D4D "power Heater" - Info, Please

[jedi134]

What amp is your Battery? Or have you already mentioned this?

I imagine the Booster heater shuts off when normanl heater reaches temp...................but always good to have it proved!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wish I had a huge amp meter!!!!!!!!!!!! The old ones are always best!!!!

[anchorman]

I've got some info if I can get photobucket to work (keeps telling me that the bulk uploader needs acrobat 10 despite downloading it).

It won't work without the engine running and it isn't on Jedi's pictures.

[Tech01]

It won't work without the engine running

Hi Don,

That was my guess too, just after I'd done my last post.

Look forward to seeing any additional details you have. (I usually manage to ignore Acrobat's pleas for the very very latest version, and downloads and reading usually work!)

Jedi,

Will let you have my Battery details tomorrow, although it's nothing very special.

Chris

Jedi,

[hedleyf]

Not so many years ago a diesel engine worked best when it got hot in fact the hotter the better, now the diesel has got more advanced it runs better cold or shall I say it runs cold, in fact most diesels now only have a radiator to drown out that terrible rattle they make and also to have some medium to opperate a heating system, yes a diesel could run around without a rad with out to much problem, Now a problem exsists how to get a heater to opperate when the engine will not produce enough heat? To produce heat is a waste of energy on a modern diesel so three high power heaters are fitted in the cooling system to heat up the coolant,they are switched by the ECM as and when required, sometimes you can see them depending where they are, they look like glow plugs with cables screwed to thieir top and are normally bolted into a alloy housing somewhere on the cooling system.Hope this helps.

[bothwell_buyer]

Naw - I haven't really been rolling in laughter reading this thread about oil-burning 5 door lumps ! I am amazed that you haven't found the paraffin lamp heater fitted behind the gearbox though. frankly, I'm just delighted that my petrol turbos heat up within 1 mile keeping my aged fingers from dropping off from frostbite.

Do you guys who drive these oil-burners not have to wrap up in warm clothing, rather like the landrover oil-burners drivers?? :lol2:

You should really consider the practicalities of fitting a wood-burning stove into the area behind the rear seats !

[jedi134]

I've got some info if I can get photobucket to work (keeps telling me that the bulk uploader needs acrobat 10 despite downloading it).

You need to download and install Adobe flash player, not acrobat reader. I would have thought Don? Does it not direct you to the correct download when it needs it?

Just Google flash player pluggin, should be Ver 11 now and install

Or maybe try this 1st

[Tech01]

OK, this is how the PTCs appear to operate:

Started the test this morning with a cold car (air and vehicle 11degC).

Ammeter inserted in PTC 50A fuse position No.1 (left-hand of the three fuses).

A temporary small 12v test bulb connected to the main output terminal of each of the three PTC relays (RLAs) and to ground (i.e. when relay operates, lamp will light).

IGN on, engine not started, heater control set to max, heater blower set to 2nd speed, Idle Up (fast idle) set to ON. Ammeter reading zero, and remains there. Test lamps not lit.

Then started engine. Stop-clock started at 00mins.

After approx 18 secs, ammeter pings to 35A, and after 1sec settles to a steady 20A. RLA2 switches on after a further 8 secs, and RLA3 6 secs later. All 3 heaters now operating, and quickly checked this by shifting the ammeter into the other two fuse positions. Meter then returned to position 1.

At +10mins, all 3 heaters still operating, and meter at steady 20A. Nice warm air from dash-vents, and dash temp gauge at halfway between C and N.

At +12mins, PTC3 switches off (lamp goes out, and current drops to zero).

PTC1 and 2 remain operating, and current through each slowly decreases as follows:

+10mins 20A

+12mins 18A Fast Idle automatically drops out, and normal idle speed operates.

+17mins 15A Temp gauge three-quarters of way between C and N.

+20mins 15A

+27mins 15A

and both remain at 15A from there onwards.

At +35mins, situation the same. PTCs 1 & 2 operating at 15A each, dash temp showing slightly under Normal.

With engine still running, heater control then turned down to mid-way. Meter immediately drops to zero. With engine still running, heater control returned to max, and after approx 25 secs PTC No.1 turns on, first to 35A for 1 sec, then settles to 15A. NB: Only PTC1 switches on; PTC2 (and 3) did not operate.

Engine switched off, and after around 30 secs a ‘hot restart’ carried out. Again, after approx 30 secs, only PTC1 turns on, first to 35A, then settles at 15A.

____________________

So, it looks as if the PTCs are ECU (or otherwise) controlled.

They would have an initial combined in-rush of 105A, but this is prevented by a controlled staggered start.

Even with a hot engine, PTC1 will still operate “on demand” whenever the heat control is put to max.

The PTCs will not operate unless the engine is running (thanks, Don), and therefore the action of the glow-plugs and cold-starting will not be compromised. [but ??? it might be worth hitting that Idle Up button on cold mornings (or leave it on for the winter) to prevent Battery drain at low idle, when all 3 PTCs, and heaven knows what else, might be operating while you scrape the ice off things. There is a limit to alternator output!]

It all seems to work really well, but I feel better knowing something about it. Hopefully, some of apparent the gaps in documentation can be filled in.

And, we still don’t know where those blasted PTC elements are actually located!

Chris

[Tech01]

Hi Jed,

And, sorry for delay, my Battery is

DETA KD33 (57412)

12v 74Ah

680A (EN) cold-start

Original Toyota Battery was Yuasa (8/2003), which lasted until 10/2009, and then the DETA.

I tend to buy Yuasa (eg for the Citroen) nowadays - my local factor keeps a huge range of them on the shelf.

Good luck with DETA's website, though: it's awkward to find, and fairly useless in content!

Chris

[anchorman]

Well I managed to get some information on 4.2 PTCs but more regarding the wiring. This shows them described as plugsbut just in case anyone is wondering, the glow plugs are described elswhere;

This shows that they depend in both the heater being turned up full and the fast idle being switched in (presumably over-ridden when travelling);

These are nothing exclusive to Toyota and even my little Kia Soul had a very effective PTC. This shows their take on it;

On a 4.3, the PTC sits in the top of the heater unit. I presume a 4.2 is similar;

On my car the relays are down by the drivers side headlight;

........which is clearly laid out in the fuse box lid;

[Tech01]

Hi Don,

I knew you'd come up with the goods! Many thanks for all this info.

The only difference I can see between your 4.3 and my 4.2 installation is that my PTC heating works whether or not the Idle Up is activated. Perhaps a wise afterthought.

So now we know. Brilliant! And another chapter for the New Testament.

Best regards,

Chris

[hedleyf]

Hi,

Thanks Anchorman for that info,you learn something new every day, this must be a later version than the cooling system type or now come to think of it can't remember seeing them coolant ones on a Rav, but have seen them Hilux and others. Cheers,

[anchorman]

Hi,

Thanks Anchorman for that info,you learn something new every day, this must be a later version than the cooling system type or now come to think of it can't remember seeing them coolant ones on a Rav, but have seen them Hilux and others. Cheers,

You mean the combustion heater?

They still do them for cold climates;

Combustion heater.pdf

[hedleyf]

No they do a version of this ptc heater plumbed into the cooling system three heater plugs powered by the same set up you show in your pic's ie three indervidual relays .

[Tech01]

No they do a version of this ptc heater plumbed into the cooling system three heater plugs powered by the same set up you show in your pic's ie three indervidual relays .

And so beginneth Chapter Two...

C.

[Tech01]

No they do a version of this ptc heater plumbed into the cooling system three heater plugs powered by the same set up you show in your pic's ie three indervidual relays .

And so beginneth Chapter Two... (possibly)

C.

[jedi134]

Mine does work after all, set to auto and max temp, after around 60 seconds the fan comes on 1 bar and you can feel the heat. It automatically directs down to my feet, probably why I did not notice it.

I did not touch my idle up button, does this really aid heating up of engine?

So the quest goes on to find something faulty with my rav.

The landrover freelander uses the combustable type diesel heater, to aid warming up.

Tech your Battery is similar to mine 70amp so not much difference there.

Another thing I am interested in is the rear diff, I belive you have the LSD type and I have the other electronic VSC system. Although in your spec sheet I did see an option for VSC.?

Would you like to start a new Thread on this?

[Davrav]

I did not touch my idle up button, does this really aid heating up of engine?

Not appreciably but it spins the alternator faster to help cope with the increased load

[jedi134]

I did not touch my idle up button, does this really aid heating up of engine?

Not appreciably but it spins the alternator faster to help cope with the increased load

The only time I`ve ever used it is when I accidently press it with my knee!!!!

[hedleyf]

On the subject of the heater had a look through some notes and came up with early D4D having a ptc heater in the cooling system,three glow plugs next to each other, powered as in anchormans wiring diagram, this wiring diagram lists the heaters as glow plugs also, so it seems that the 4.2 use's the glow plug type, the 4.3 could be different. I,ll look into it further or is everyone getting a bit hacked off with it ? just good to know sometimes,could win you a prize one day,

[anchorman]

No keep looking. Lets get to the bottom of it.

[Tech01]

Hi Hedley,

No, don't give up - it would be good to know what's what on this. The Ultimate Pub Quiz trouncer!

Chris

[anchorman]

I think its easy to get mixed up with a PTC heater and a cylinder block heater. The latter is really to stop the block freezing in extreme climates.

[jedi134]

I was thinking the same thing!!!

[hedleyf]

Still on the case, looks like the petrol has a ptc heater fitted as anchormans drawings near the heater matrix only for cold climate areas ,not uk, Still to check out the diesel.

The block heaters would be pluged in constantly to a outside electric supply would'nt they? like a fire engine,

[jedi134]

The avensis does not get this feature apparently....same engine and all. PTC that is.

Not even in the top spec model apparantly.