Battery Woes Again (4.2 Petrol)

[Catweazle]

My original Battery died in the heavy winter of 2010/11 and I replaced it with a Yuasa one (42AH if I remember correctly). However, ever since, it has gone flat if I haven't used the car in 7 - 10 days. I took it back to the shop where I purchased the Battery and he said that modern cars were notorious for draining the Battery with all their alarms, immobilisers, etc, put the battery on a meter and advised that it was fine.

What I can't get my head round was firstly that I didn't have this problem with the original battery and secondly, none of my neighbours seem to have this problem with their modern cars.

To get myself out of trouble, I have purchased CTEK charger and fitted one of their 'Comfort Panels' in the car so that I can charge it without having to lift the bonnet and can get an idea of the charge level from the indicator (which incidentally shows amber indicating less than 90% charge after only a few hours of standing and red after a couple of days - less than 40%)

Can anyone tell me if this is normal on RAVs, or do I have a duff battery? Also, if I were to replace the battery, will one for a diesel 4.2 fit?

Thanks in advance

[pmb]

I've been through 2 of 45Ah Numax batteries in the past 3 years. The car hasn't had much use in that time. I bit the bullet at Christmas and went for the diesel sized HB072 from Halfords. That one has been mentioned on previous posts. Well worth the extra money so far. What ever you buy make sure the terminals are the right way round as some info on websites is wrong. I have a feeling that once they start failing it's not possible to charge them fully. Mine went flat in 2-3 days at the end. It would take a charge but was reading 13.8 V after only an hour or so , so wasn't fully charged I don't think.

[IanXT4]

I have exactly the same problem (and car) as you. At one point in a previous thread I measured the parasitic drain of the alarm etc and worked out that it very roughly equated to a loss of arround 1AH a day.

I had starting problems that I put down to a combination of the following factors

Cold - Battery performance falls off considerably at low temperatures

Poor initial charge - caused by previous short journeys

Parasitic loss - alarm (the XT 4 has many additional alarm sensors, eg glass breakage and Microwave)

The solution if you are not using the car regularily is either a trickle charger or a larger Battery. Archorman is confident that the Diesel Battery will fit with a bit of fiddling. For now I am using a charger, in future I plan to try fitting the Diesel battery.

[pmb]

Archorman in confident that the Diesel battery will fit with a bit of fiddling.

On mine I had to remove the L shaped brackets that sit on the top front and back of the Battery (tight but a spanner removes them) and instead of the clamps going down through the base of the Battery tray they fit into different holes below the front and back of the tray. Don't know if 2004 is the same as 2002 though.

[jedi134]

If it was my rav I would fit a diesel 70A or upwards Battery. 45A batterys are for 1.0 Ford fiestas.

[pgp001]

Halfords HB072 diesel Battery fits a 2004 petrol 4.2 no problem at all. Its just the clamp rods that need anchoring to a different set of holes, took me around 15 minutes to swap mine over.

Phil

[Jamesbelfast]

Also check the CCA rating of a replacement Battery matches manufacturers recommendations.

[Big Kev]

Also check the CCA rating of a replacement battery matches manufacturers recommendations.

OK James...I will be that soldier and ask the question....what the golly gosh is its "CCA Rating...." ? certainly wasn't something I checked when I showed Anchorman last year how to fit a Halfraud's HB 072 uprated Battery in place of the glorified torch Battery wife's 3 door came with. Fitted in minutes, perfect fit into stock Battery tray, posts in correct orientation, just moved clamps as Phil says above.

Only last week did Anch's drop test the wee removed battery....actually in A1 nick, but just didn't instill confidence when it went flat with just sidelights on after very short time, and on three separate occasions.

Big Kev.

[shcm]

Cold Cranking Amps Kev.

While you are all probably correct about the Battery being "too small", I do actually wonder.

There's usually a fair bit of thought put into vehicle quiescent @ design and validation stage, as there is thought put into electrical load balance and perhaps they did get it wrong, but I do find it a little difficult to believe.

It seems to be mostly a petrol problem. Well that's because they fit a silly little Battery to petrol you idiot, you say. Yes and they probably fit a different alternator too.

Now, this really should be a problem with modern alternator bridge rectifiers, but I do wonder whether the petrol alternator suffers from increased reverse leakage current through the bridge (or even part bridge failure). That would increase the quiescent current draw from the Battery, but the alternator would still appear to charge (although it might not be as efficeient as it should be).

Easy to check and to blow me out of the water. For those that suffer with it, disconnect the alternator connection to the battery and see if the quisecent is lower with the vehicle in its locked "sleep" state, compared with when the connection is made.

[Nemo2000]

We learnt the hard way about the Battery drain problem on our RAV 4.2 NRG !

From simple experiment, after a long drive to give the Battery a good charge, when parked up with the alarm on it would be flat within 2 weeks. If the doors were locked with the key only (so the internal sensors were off), then you would get a few more days out of it - it would be sluggish after 2 weeks, but it /would/ start.

The original Battery died after about 5 years and was replaced by a Toyota 'Optifit' model - quite useful with a visual charge indicator, even if difficult to get access to see it!. Actually, Im getting a bit 'twitchy' about the battery now that the icy weather has arrived, as this has been in place for longer than the old one. As we hope to get rid of the car in a few months we really don't want to spend out too much money on it in the meantime.

I see from the label that this one is 40AH 175A DIN capacity

[jedi134]

perhaps they did get it wrong, but I do find it a little difficult to believe.

2AD diesel engine? Oil? Charlie? :-)

[firemac]

Cold Cranking Amps Kev.

While you are all probably correct about the battery being "too small", I do actually wonder.

There's usually a fair bit of thought put into vehicle quiescent @ design and validation stage, as there is thought put into electrical load balance and perhaps they did get it wrong, but I do find it a little difficult to believe.

It seems to be mostly a petrol problem. Well that's because they fit a silly little battery to petrol you idiot, you say. Yes and they probably fit a different alternator too.

Now, this really should be a problem with modern alternator bridge rectifiers, but I do wonder whether the petrol alternator suffers from increased reverse leakage current through the bridge (or even part bridge failure). That would increase the quiescent current draw from the battery, but the alternator would still appear to charge (although it might not be as efficeient as it should be).

Easy to check and to blow me out of the water. For those that suffer with it, disconnect the alternator connection to the battery and see if the quisecent is lower with the vehicle in its locked "sleep" state, compared with when the connection is made.

I won't pretend to understand any of these technicalities but your underlying suggestion that the wee petrol Battery probably is fit for purpose is one that I would agree with.

The original Battery in our 02-reg auto perfomed absolutely faultlessly & lasted until last October & I only replaced it then because I simply couldn't see it lasting through a 3rd really cold winter & I didn't want to take the chance of my wife being stranded as I work away from home quite alot & can't always help out in such emergencies.

Admittedly there were times in the last two severe winters when I had niggling doubts about it but it never failed to start the car, even on a few -20 degree mornings. I replaced it with one or Mr. T's finest simply because I couldn't come up with a reason not to given the sterling service provieded by the original.

[firemac]

Cold Cranking Amps Kev.

While you are all probably correct about the battery being "too small", I do actually wonder.

There's usually a fair bit of thought put into vehicle quiescent @ design and validation stage, as there is thought put into electrical load balance and perhaps they did get it wrong, but I do find it a little difficult to believe.

It seems to be mostly a petrol problem. Well that's because they fit a silly little battery to petrol you idiot, you say. Yes and they probably fit a different alternator too.

Now, this really should be a problem with modern alternator bridge rectifiers, but I do wonder whether the petrol alternator suffers from increased reverse leakage current through the bridge (or even part bridge failure). That would increase the quiescent current draw from the battery, but the alternator would still appear to charge (although it might not be as efficeient as it should be).

Easy to check and to blow me out of the water. For those that suffer with it, disconnect the alternator connection to the battery and see if the quisecent is lower with the vehicle in its locked "sleep" state, compared with when the connection is made.

I won't pretend to understand any of these technicalities but your underlying suggestion that the wee petrol Battery probably is fit for purpose is one that I would agree with.

The original Battery in our 02-reg auto perfomed absolutely faultlessly & lasted until last October & I only replaced it then because I simply couldn't see it lasting through a 3rd really cold winter & I didn't want to take the chance of my wife being stranded as I work away from home quite alot & can't always help out in such emergencies.

My original battery died in the heavy winter of 2010/11 and I replaced it with a Yuasa one (42AH if I remember correctly). However, ever since, it has gone flat if I haven't used the car in 7 - 10 days. I took it back to the shop where I purchased the battery and he said that modern cars were notorious for draining the battery with all their alarms, immobilisers, etc, put the battery on a meter and advised that it was fine.

What I can't get my head round was firstly that I didn't have this problem with the original battery and secondly, none of my neighbours seem to have this problem with their modern cars.

To get myself out of trouble, I have purchased CTEK charger and fitted one of their 'Comfort Panels' in the car so that I can charge it without having to lift the bonnet and can get an idea of the charge level from the indicator (which incidentally shows amber indicating less than 90% charge after only a few hours of standing and red after a couple of days - less than 40%)

Can anyone tell me if this is normal on RAVs, or do I have a duff battery? Also, if I were to replace the battery, will one for a diesel 4.2 fit?

Thanks in advance

My original battery died in the heavy winter of 2010/11 and I replaced it with a Yuasa one (42AH if I remember correctly). However, ever since, it has gone flat if I haven't used the car in 7 - 10 days. I took it back to the shop where I purchased the battery and he said that modern cars were notorious for draining the battery with all their alarms, immobilisers, etc, put the battery on a meter and advised that it was fine.

What I can't get my head round was firstly that I didn't have this problem with the original battery and secondly, none of my neighbours seem to have this problem with their modern cars.

To get myself out of trouble, I have purchased CTEK charger and fitted one of their 'Comfort Panels' in the car so that I can charge it without having to lift the bonnet and can get an idea of the charge level from the indicator (which incidentally shows amber indicating less than 90% charge after only a few hours of standing and red after a couple of days - less than 40%)

Can anyone tell me if this is normal on RAVs, or do I have a duff battery? Also, if I were to replace the battery, will one for a diesel 4.2 fit?

Thanks in advance

So the Battery is what, a year old? Surely a quality item like Yuasa has a warranty of something like 3 years? If you make enough noise, it must be possible to get it replaced. Have you tried Yuasa's customer services dept? Respectable companies don't like unhappy customers.

[Jamesbelfast]

See the link below - it gives some good advice and information regarding car batteries.

Also it demonstrates how to date the manufacture of a Battery.

http://www.autobatteries.com/faq/index.asp

[jedi134]

I see from the label that this one is 40AH 175A DIN capacity

Whats the 175A DIN Capacity mean? Is that CCA in Euro or something? I presume the 40Ah is the actually Battery rating?......If so, I dont think its even good enough for a 1.0 fiesta.

http://www.nipress.com/product/din

you sure it says 175 A Din?

For SHCM

ALTERNATOR, 12V 90A; 1AZFE,2AZFE..MTM (0307- ); Petrol

ALTERNATOR, 12V 130A; 1CDFTV (0105-0307); Diesel

Also just noticed this................... why would a LHD Diesel Rav have a bigger power rated starter motor? Is there more to crank in a lefty?

STARTER, 12V 1.2KW,1.4KW; 1AZFE,2AZFE (0307- ); Petrol , I presume, 1.8 and 2.0 engine

STARTER, 12V 1.4KW; 1CDFTV (0105-0307); Diesel

STARTER, 12V 2.2KW; 1CDFTV..LHD (0105-0307); LHD Diesel

[Tech01]

Hi Jedi,

I've just taken at peek at this vehicle Battery manufacturer's site: http://en.zjjust.com/p2.asp?num=1

which lists several pages of Battery ratings.

From this, 175A DIN is equivalent to about 300A EN. As such, 300A CCA (cold-cranking amps) is nothing much to shout about - good enough for petrol, but not for diesel.

In contrast, my own DETA Battery is 12v 74Ah 680A EN, which equates to 400-420A DIN.

I also noticed today in Mr.T's diesel engine workshop manual that the free-running (i.e. NO LOAD) current of the 2.2kW starter motor I have should be 120A. That's with the motor on the (workshop) bench, spinning, under no load! My guess is that when it tries to turn a cold engine over, this figure is likely to at least triple or quadruple. So 300A CCA (175A DIN) just wouldn't cut it.

1.4kW or 2.2kW ?? Could these be two different starter motors? I recall some vehicle manufacturers fitting more than one brand of s/motor to a given vehicle, e.g. Denso, Mitsubishi... Cannot be petrol and diesel, surely.

Chris

[jedi134]

I think the petrol Starter motor was the 1.4KW version too, the same as non LHD ravs,

But why has the LHD rav like yours apparently got the 2.2KW starter motor?

Also you may have hit the nail on`th head.........maybe some petrol ravs have been fitted with the 2,2KW starter motor..................40Ah Battery and 2.2KW ( not sure what this is in amps) starter motor = flat fiesta Battery???????

Although they do look totally different starter motors,? maybe the mounting is the same?

120Amp free running sounds way too much? sounds more like when loaded up turning engine? Is this correct?

This is the starter motor for the petrol:

STARTER, 12V 1.2KW,1.4KW; 1AZFE,2AZFE (0307- );

I presume 1.8 and 2.0 petrol ravs

edited::: other post also to include petrol Starter motor.:::::::

[Nemo2000]

Well, in the 'standards' world DIN is the German equivalent for national standards. Whether the DIN number is the same as the CCA number, or there is some conversion factor, I don't know......

[jedi134]

Must be like metric and imperial? euro/pounds? t!ts n a$$.... who knows :D

[Tech01]

Hi Jedi,

Easy to find out what CCA (cold-cranking amps) rating is all about - this for a start: http://en.wikipedia....omotive_battery

DIN rating is more difficult to pin down, though. Yes, it's a German industrial standard, but there are thousands of these, and, it appears, dozens that relate to vehicle batteries. So unless you know the DIN Number, a figure quoted is meaningless.

CCA (eg 480A EN . . . EN is the Euro standard for cold start delivery at 0degF/-18degC) is now the preferred and most popular rating, and describes well what most of us want to know: How well will my Battery perform when it's very cold? A full definition of the CCA standard is at the bottom of the Wiki page. [There are some other and fairly useless ratings. For example, one American standard relates to how the Battery will perform at 80degF - really useful!]

On the starter motor front, my figure was correct. My Toyota engine repair manual RM856E (May 2001), covering 1CD-FTV diesel engines (for 4.2 2.0 D4D) lists two starter motors which may be fitted to this engine. The 1.4kW should have a no-load (ie bench check) current of "90A or less at 11.5v". The 2.2kW motor figure is 120A.

So, at least double/triple/etc. that for turning a cold engine, I'd guess. Hence the need for a really decent CCA rating for the Battery.

Chris

[jedi134]

Blimey! That's some current then when cranking the engine. 40Ah Battery definatly no good, its probably right at its limits, I would bin it if it was my rav.

Yep I understand the CCA en: I just never seen the DIN standard before on a car Battery.

Thanks.