Engine Done And Dusted ...

[CharlieFarlie]

The second engine was fitted and finished today.... A couple of interesting facts..

My First replacement engine was not the first to fail by any means ...

Toyota are now on their third design of pistons and rings for the 2AD engine

Absolutely NO post 2009 150 BHP engines have been affected by the same problems that affect the 2AD Engine built from late 2005 up to 2009.

Hats off to the Dealer who carried out the work for the Courteous and professional manner and huge knowledge regarding the 2AD engines..

[dervdave]

:toot:

[Hoovie]

The second engine was fitted and finished today.... A couple of interesting facts..

My First replacement engine was not the first to fail by any means ...

Toyota are now on their third design of pistons and rings for the 2AD engine

Absolutely NO post 2009 150 BHP engines have been affected by the same problems that affect the 2AD Engine built from late 2005 up to 2009.

Hats off to the Dealer who carried out the work for the Courteous and professional manner and huge knowledge regarding the 2AD engines..

No more wearing an Aygo for you now then!!!

I assume that they are now using what is in the post 2009 engines in the replacements then?

and reassuring news on the 150BHP engines :D

[CharlieFarlie]

The second engine was fitted and finished today.... A couple of interesting facts..

My First replacement engine was not the first to fail by any means ...

Toyota are now on their third design of pistons and rings for the 2AD engine

Absolutely NO post 2009 150 BHP engines have been affected by the same problems that affect the 2AD Engine built from late 2005 up to 2009.

Hats off to the Dealer who carried out the work for the Courteous and professional manner and huge knowledge regarding the 2AD engines..

No more wearing an Aygo for you now then!!!

I assume that they are now using what is in the post 2009 engines in the replacements then?

and reassuring news on the 150BHP engines :D

Err Not to sure what they are using. But bear in mind My first replacement engine was fitted in August 2011 just 6 months ago so You would think it would be the same parts fitted to the engines ?? Not sure but the engine fitted now is a complete brand new engine so should hopefully be fine .. I think they were not taking any risks !!

Perhaps some of the re manufactured ones had blocks that were near or out of tolerance ?? Guessing really...... Or perhaps the slightly lighter stage of engine tune / power is easier on the engine ?? Guessing again ....

You are right though its a re assurance for those like Yourself and Don who have the later models..

[Big Kev]

Utterly best wishes with this one Charlie, and it would be great if it all came out Roses and you stick with the bloody thing (and us....) but ah hae ma doots, min.

So mine is a "first registered 27.3.2009"....so what....? How do I ascertain build date, and believe me I will not be worrying aboot it until it happens....just curious, honest.

Plus as you can see, I only have a few weeks left of 3 year warranty....anything I should check / have checked in the short interim....?

Big Kev

[tatteam]

Good luck Charlie and hope you'll have a rest of mind now. Give it a chance now, before you'll decide to sell it off, we really like your posts and hope to keep you on this forum.

[CharlieFarlie]

I wont be keeping the T180 Kev..

Sadly I believe all the SR and T180 models are in the at risk zone.. I genuinely believe the risky period is from 40 t0 55 thousand miles as its something I have been keeping an eye on.. Your car like any of the cars fitted with the 2AD engine will under current policy stay under warranty for the engine for another four Years after the normal 3 year one expires. So I think You have little to worry about..

The steering intermediate shaft is the only thing I can think of that might be worth getting checked if the Anchor has not already done so ?

[shcm]

So mine is a "first registered 27.3.2009"....so what....? How do I ascertain build date, and believe me I will not be worrying aboot it until it happens....just curious, honest.

Kev, PM VIN to Inglezee mutt face on the left or you have my email addr. Done a couple in the last week. Two people you know reasonably well. At least one likes single malt and stealing bits off RAVs.

----

I reckon you just had a manufacturing fault Charlie, but maybe we will never know how this one goes. Good luck anyway.

[anchorman]

First piston rings - June 2007

4.3 excessive oil consumption.pdf

Second piston rings - May 2008

4.3 piston ring and EGR inspection and replacement.pdf

This is the revised procedure using the same rings as 2 above. It led to the 3/4 engine program and was introduced in August 2009.

Excessive oil consumption 2.pdf

The third type is in the 150 engine.

Are you suggesting the three designs of rings signify 3/4 engine failures or do you have some more information?

[jedi134]

Well to my uneducated brain, those vertical score marks in the cylinder block, look like the oils not been doing its job..................:D

Also look at the con rod bearing shells, what's caused them to go black? Are these scored/burnt, or is it impregnated soot? A lack of lubrication again?

Has your mate come out of his meeting yet Don? :P

[anchorman]

You will have to wait until my next visit in March for the bulletin.

The scoring is usually caused by hard particles like carbon that have got inside the bores. In isolation, these wouldn't cause a problem as long as there were not too many but they fail to meet the standard for a rebuild.

I cannot imagine what would cause blackening of the big end bearings - carbon deposits from the oil maybe?

None of the damage is caused by a lack of lubrication.

[jedi134]

How about the oil not being able to suspend all the soot being pumped back into the engine?

In effect the oil becomes liquid sand papers?

A thicker oil will suspend soot particles better?

:D

[Big Kev]

How about the oil not being able to suspend all the soot being pumped back into the engine?

In effect the oil becomes liquid sand papers?

A thicker oil will suspend soot particles better?

:D

Yipee !!!!!!! That ol' chestnut "thicker oil" again !!!!! My life is complete......ah will not sleep tonight with excitement !!!!! I had got totally bored off ma upper abdomen reading the other one on this subject....now ah've got a new one !!!!

Don.....cancel whatever March meetings are arranged....this is scintillating stuff....!!!

Big Kev

[CharlieFarlie]

First piston rings - June 2007

4.3 excessive oil consumption.pdf

Second piston rings - May 2008

4.3 piston ring and EGR inspection and replacement.pdf

This is the revised procedure using the same rings as 2 above. It led to the 3/4 engine program and was introduced in August 2009.

Excessive oil consumption 2.pdf

The third type is in the 150 engine.

Are you suggesting the three designs of rings signify 3/4 engine failures or do you have some more information?

The pistons and rings now being fitted are the third design attempt to get it sorted. So from that I take it that if Your engine was rebuilt at a Dealer here in the UK or perhaps one of the early Japan built engines there is a possibility that the pistons and rings could be from design 1 or 2.....

I was also told that My inlet manifold was well and truly sooted and clogged up and that the DPNF ?? ( Its not called a DPF in Toyota speak) was also sooted up badly and replaced.. EGR was clean but I already knew about that ..

Reason the inlet manifold was clogged and not the exhaust as I would have thought was due to the recirculation that takes place..

Jedi.. If I send You a 20.000 piece jigsaw to play with will You bugger odd and play and stop talking rubbish about oil ?? Not having a pop Mate but its boring beyond belief now !!!

[jedi134]

I know what your saying I'm bored of it my self, but from those TSB,s Dons posted , it certainly looks like an oil problem to me.......especially the con rod bearing shells.....I would like to know what that black stuff is, as that looks really bad, I belive that would cause engine knock would it not Don? A very noisy diesel engine, your piston would not be flying up the bore straight, it would be wobbling up... maybe even scoring the sides of the cylinder bore? :D

Charlie have you got a ker-plunk, or the old mouse trap game, that would keep me occupied :D. Kev you can come and play with me if you like :P

[dervdave]

I know what your saying I'm bored of it my self, but from those TSB,s Dons posted , it certainly looks like an oil problem to me.......especially the con rod bearing shells.....I would like to know what that black stuff is,

Piston/engine blow by

http://www.expertdiesel.com/blowby.htm

[jedi134]

Another thing I don't understand with Charlies engine is why was the EGR clean, and the intake manifold all sooted up? All the exhaust gas goes through the EGR 1st does it not? Hence the name "exhaust gas recirculation"

Did they clean it all out the 1st time????

Unless all the soot is coming up through the oil breather pipes? (I belive these were made bigger in later engine designs?) Which would suggest oil that is saturated with soot??......

Would it be worth checking oil breather pipes for soot deposits? Or thick black goo...

:D

Charlie you've got a point about piston designs 1 & 2 though, even I don't want to go there.........

[CharlieFarlie]

Another thing I don't understand with Charlies engine is why was the EGR clean, and the intake manifold all sooted up? All the exhaust gas goes through the EGR 1st does it not? Hence the name "exhaust gas recirculation"

Did they clean it all out the 1st time????

Unless all the soot is coming up through the oil breather pipes? (I belive these were made bigger in later engine designs?) Which would suggest oil that is saturated with soot??......

Would it be worth checking oil breather pipes for soot deposits? Or thick black goo...

:D

Charlie you've got a point about piston designs 1 & 2 though, even I don't want to go there.........

First engine had a brand new EGR fitted. Not sure if its the same one on this engine though as I haven't looked !

Picked the car up fairly late yesterday afternoon and left at 5 this morning heading home.. Will have a look tomorrow and see if the EGR is new but to be honest it will be hard to tell....

I don't really fully understand all this re circulation stuff .. Years ago it used to be the valves and exhaust manifold that clogged up now its the inlet manifold ?

[anchorman]

The pistons and rings now being fitted are the third design attempt to get it sorted. So from that I take it that if Your engine was rebuilt at a Dealer here in the UK or perhaps one of the early Japan built engines there is a possibility that the pistons and rings could be from design 1 or 2.....

No, the piston ring change came long before the 3/4 engine program - they were probably fitted to Tim's first rebuilt engine.

Jedi.. If I send You a 20.000 piece jigsaw to play with will You bugger odd and play and stop talking rubbish about oil ?? Not having a pop Mate but its boring beyond belief now !!!

Another fan of yours Jedi?

I belive that would cause engine knock would it not Don? A very noisy diesel engine, your piston would not be flying up the bore straight, it would be wobbling up... maybe even scoring the sides of the cylinder bore? :D

No Jedi, Not unless the parts were worn but fouling of oilways etc wouldn't be good and for that reason rebuilding engines at dealers wouldn't be as effective long term as a factory with the ability to clean out engine parts with acid.

Another thing I don't understand with Charlies engine is why was the EGR clean, and the intake manifold all sooted up? All the exhaust gas goes through the EGR 1st does it not? Hence the name "exhaust gas recirculation"

Did they clean it all out the 1st time????

Rarely, but on this occasion my little poison dwarf you have a very good point. There is no way even with oil passing somewhere that the inlet manifold has become clogged and the EGR hasn't.

Charlie

There is a port on the end of the cylinder head that allows some exhaust to go back to the inlet manifold. The flow is regulated by the computer controlled EGR valve and the idea is that the exhaust mingles with the incoming fuel/air charge and effectively dilutes it. This cools the expanding gases of the power stroke and has the effect of reducing NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

The early TSBs relating to fault code 0400 called for a new EGR (which yours has) and for the inlet manifold to be very carefully examined and if it was too dirty that it should be replaced. It also applied to the DPF (DPNR as you correctly give it the full title) and if this was not done it would cause serious problems like back pressure in the engine and even pressurising the sump which would force oil consumption.

If they failed to do it the first time Charlie it could well be the root cause of the first engine problems. Not necessarily a duff engine but duff fitting.

Did they give you another engine number?

[CharlieFarlie]

The pistons and rings now being fitted are the third design attempt to get it sorted. So from that I take it that if Your engine was rebuilt at a Dealer here in the UK or perhaps one of the early Japan built engines there is a possibility that the pistons and rings could be from design 1 or 2.....

No, the piston ring change came long before the 3/4 engine program - they were probably fitted to Tim's first rebuilt engine.

Jedi.. If I send You a 20.000 piece jigsaw to play with will You bugger odd and play and stop talking rubbish about oil ?? Not having a pop Mate but its boring beyond belief now !!!

Another fan of yours Jedi?

I belive that would cause engine knock would it not Don? A very noisy diesel engine, your piston would not be flying up the bore straight, it would be wobbling up... maybe even scoring the sides of the cylinder bore? :D

No Jedi, Not unless the parts were worn but fouling of oilways etc wouldn't be good and for that reason rebuilding engines at dealers wouldn't be as effective long term as a factory with the ability to clean out engine parts with acid.

Another thing I don't understand with Charlies engine is why was the EGR clean, and the intake manifold all sooted up? All the exhaust gas goes through the EGR 1st does it not? Hence the name "exhaust gas recirculation"

Did they clean it all out the 1st time????

Rarely, but on this occasion my little poison dwarf you have a very good point. There is no way even with oil passing somewhere that the inlet manifold has become clogged and the EGR hasn't.

Charlie

There is a port on the end of the cylinder head that allows some exhaust to go back to the inlet manifold. The flow is regulated by the computer controlled EGR valve and the idea is that the exhaust mingles with the incoming fuel/air charge and effectively dilutes it. This cools the expanding gases of the power stroke and has the effect of reducing NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

The early TSBs relating to fault code 0400 called for a new EGR (which yours has) and for the inlet manifold to be very carefully examined and if it was too dirty that it should be replaced. It also applied to the DPF (DPNR as you correctly give it the full title) and if this was not done it would cause serious problems like back pressure in the engine and even pressurising the sump which would force oil consumption.

If they failed to do it the first time Charlie it could well be the root cause of the first engine problems. Not necessarily a duff engine but duff fitting.

Did they give you another engine number?

The pistons and rings now being fitted are the third design attempt to get it sorted. So from that I take it that if Your engine was rebuilt at a Dealer here in the UK or perhaps one of the early Japan built engines there is a possibility that the pistons and rings could be from design 1 or 2.....

No, the piston ring change came long before the 3/4 engine program - they were probably fitted to Tim's first rebuilt engine.

Jedi.. If I send You a 20.000 piece jigsaw to play with will You bugger odd and play and stop talking rubbish about oil ?? Not having a pop Mate but its boring beyond belief now !!!

Another fan of yours Jedi?

I belive that would cause engine knock would it not Don? A very noisy diesel engine, your piston would not be flying up the bore straight, it would be wobbling up... maybe even scoring the sides of the cylinder bore? :D

No Jedi, Not unless the parts were worn but fouling of oilways etc wouldn't be good and for that reason rebuilding engines at dealers wouldn't be as effective long term as a factory with the ability to clean out engine parts with acid.

Another thing I don't understand with Charlies engine is why was the EGR clean, and the intake manifold all sooted up? All the exhaust gas goes through the EGR 1st does it not? Hence the name "exhaust gas recirculation"

Did they clean it all out the 1st time????

Rarely, but on this occasion my little poison dwarf you have a very good point. There is no way even with oil passing somewhere that the inlet manifold has become clogged and the EGR hasn't.

Charlie

There is a port on the end of the cylinder head that allows some exhaust to go back to the inlet manifold. The flow is regulated by the computer controlled EGR valve and the idea is that the exhaust mingles with the incoming fuel/air charge and effectively dilutes it. This cools the expanding gases of the power stroke and has the effect of reducing NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

The early TSBs relating to fault code 0400 called for a new EGR (which yours has) and for the inlet manifold to be very carefully examined and if it was too dirty that it should be replaced. It also applied to the DPF (DPNR as you correctly give it the full title) and if this was not done it would cause serious problems like back pressure in the engine and even pressurising the sump which would force oil consumption.

If they failed to do it the first time Charlie it could well be the root cause of the first engine problems. Not necessarily a duff engine but duff fitting.

Did they give you another engine number?

Yes Mate I got another engine number..

All the technical talk is making Me giddy to be honest but that is what I was told IE ..EGR clean. Inlet manifold clogged badly. DNPR clogged and replaced.

I could post the engine number if it helps ??

[CharlieFarlie]

Let Me try and clarify the situation with the pistons and rings.. After the problem with the 2AD engines Toyota started replacing the said pistons and rings with modified parts... Lets call this set 1

They then started using a further modified parts. IE a new and different design of Piston and ring.. Lets call it set 2

These parts has now be superseded by a yet again further set of re designed pistons and rings .. Lets say set 3

Hope I have explained better this time. It is confusing !

[jedi134]

All this technical talk is giving me a semi too Charlie :D

So no doubt in this oil TSB that Don explained in a lot of detail, that is so far not available, will say use x oil and not x or x or x hmmmmmm, I wonder why....Seems Toyota have acknowledged an oil problem, but are not shouting from the roof tops about it.......don't blame them :D. So I'll do it for them :D

SHCM darling! How's the oil consumption with the thicker morris semi synth??

And the previous fully synth you were using, what was it? It only take a maximum of 10 keystrokes to say if your that busy?.........:D

Err.........you didn't design this engine by any chance did you?.........:P

[jedi134]

Let Me try and clarify the situation with the pistons and rings.. After the problem with the 2AD engines Toyota started replacing the said pistons and rings with modified parts... Lets call this set 1

They then started using a further modified parts. IE a new and different design of Piston and ring.. Lets call it set 2

These parts has now be superseded by a yet again further set of re designed pistons and rings .. Lets say set 3

Hope I have explained better this time. It is confusing !

I understand you Charles.......but I really don't want to get involved in this one.......:D

[anchorman]

Let Me try and clarify the situation with the pistons and rings.. After the problem with the 2AD engines Toyota started replacing the said pistons and rings with modified parts... Lets call this set 1

They then started using a further modified parts. IE a new and different design of Piston and ring.. Lets call it set 2

These parts has now be superseded by a yet again further set of re designed pistons and rings .. Lets say set 3

Hope I have explained better this time. It is confusing !

Yeah but that doesn't apply to 3/4 engines. You were saying that yours was by no means the first to fail............

Does your inlet manifold look new this time?

[CharlieFarlie]

Don. Mate I'm confused ?? I was trying to pass on what I thought was a very interesting point Re the pistons and rings.. It seems this is not what You asked ??

I haven't yet looked at the engine and the parts around it as I have been run off My feet Mate.. Is the inlet manifold at the front of the engine ??

Yes You are right My point was that by NO means is My engine ( Japan 3/4 ) the first to fail..

There were 5 engines waiting collection and return to Japan sat on crates. That includes My old one. the other 4 I would guess are just normal replacements..

You asked about My being given an engine number ?? Can I ask why ? Will it give any clues ? I am happy to post here both the first and second engine numbers if it helps...... Just curious now !