New Owner - Oil Light Problem

[thedigger]

Hi all,

My first post here, so thanks in advance for taking the time to read and hopefully assist.

We bought our new-to-us Rav 4 on Saturday. It's an 02 plate, 4.2 shape with a 2.0 vvti petrol engine. It had fairly high mileage on it when we bought it (140k), but we didn't think it was too much of a problem as we tend to do low mileage, the car looked and sounded in great condition, and Toyotas are among the most reliable car manufacturers.

Or so I thought....

Since Saturday, we've done 140 miles. Tonight, we were going for a drive to a restaurant about 4 miles from our house when the oil light first started flickering about three miles into our journey. I stopped at a local petrol station and checked the oil level and colour and both seemed fine. I started the engine and the light was off, so continued the drive to our destination. While driving back, the oil light came on, again about half way into the journey. It flickered for a few seconds before staying on solidly. I drove home (the remaining two miles), keeping the revs low in an attempt to prevent wrecking the engine. When I was completely idling (ie, at traffic lights), the light would flicker or turn off.

Does anyone know what could have caused this? Is the engine worn out? Should I stop driving the car until we've had it checked over?

Also, where this car is under a used car dealer's warranty, what are they likely to say?

Sorry to introduce myself with a bad news story; hopefully this will be fixed and my Rav and I will have many happy years together.

[mystic]

Have you checked you oil when the engine was cold on a flat surface? That's normally a sign the oil is just low as the engine revs higher, it splashes the oil around more and may be setting the sensor to thinking its run out.

[ormi]

these have oil pressure lights and i wouldnt drive it...get it uplifted and get the oil pressure checked

[IanXT4]

You sound as if you have enough oil in the engine, although its worth checking again. Assuming the car was purchased from a dealer I would contact them discuss the problem and ask for them to come and pickup (ie tow away) the car to fix it.

If the red oil warning light is flashing it could either be a simple problem with the oil pressure switch or something more complex/expensive causing low oil pressure.

What ever happens I would not risk driving the car until you are clear exactly what is causing the oil light to flash.

If the oil pressure is low you could be risking serious engine damage that could potentially write the engine off in a couple of miles.

[thedigger]

Hi, thanks so much for all the reponses! Didn't expect to have so many so soon!

I didn't get it from a main dealer, just a fairly large used car lot. They have over 100 cars in at any one time so I'm sure this won't be the first claim they've had. And the light flickers at first, then stays on solid.

I've just checked the oil level again and it's right between the low and high dots on the dipstick. It also seems clean (a slightly browned honey colour), so it's not a case of neglected oil change.

One thing which did concern me was the state under the oil filler cap:

Is that sludge? I'm half tempted to run a can of engine cleaner like this"]http://www.tooled-up...er=froogle]this one and change the oil and filter although in this case I'll definitely speak to the people I bought it from first.

I'm kinda worried now. Not sure how to get it to the garage as they are 20 miles away and I only have AA recovery away from the home. :(

[IanXT4]

You might want to read up on your rights, if I was in your situation I would be polite but firm with the seller. This is their problem not yours.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/your-rights-buying-second-hand-cars/second-hand-cars-your-rights/

If the problem is not something simple this car could turn out to be a heap of trouble. Don't be tempted to try and fix the problem yourself by flushing etc. Using flushing additives on older engines can cause more problems than they solve, plus the selling garage may say that this caused the problem !!

[CharlieFarlie]

As Ormi says You light is lit when pressure goes low. So when cold and the oil is thick the pressure will be higher. as it warms up and starts to thin out the pressure will drop slightly. This will be when the light flickers as the sensor detects less pressure. When the light goes solid that's when the engine has reached high temperatures and is now far thinner ..

Any car that has done 140K miles has to be a risk.. Some engines will do 2 or more hundred thousand miles without issues. I believe its how well the engine has been treated during that heavy mileage.. It may have had the oil changed every 6000 miles or hardly ever at all..

Do You have service history ??

Either away take it back immediately and demand a refund under the consumer goods protection act which covers You for 28 days from the point of purchase. State clearly that the item is NOT fit for purpose..

Why did You not remove the oil cap before buying ? One look in there would see me off the car lot very quickly indeed !

The cause of low oil pressure is usually the Crankshaft bearings being worn badly and flowing oil past and or the oil pump on the way out or a combination off both and any other wear issues within the engine...

Very occasionally it can be really bad or dirty or old oil or maybe the wrong grade..

The seller may offer an oil change but please DO NOT ACCEPT IT !!!. It is possible to mask at least for a while your problems by putting in thicker oil. But the problem will return and if after that 28 days has expired You will be well and truly lumbered ..

[thedigger]

Thanks Ian, that's a great link! As I thought, the garage should be liable for this problem as the caris clearly not fit for purpose if there are engine problems 5 days after picking up the keys.

And cheers Charlie... I'm starting to think I bought a lemon. I've never had problems worth high mileage cars before though

[jedi134]

Looking at the sludge in the oil filler hole, you may have a blocked oil pick up strainer....you'd have to take the sump off to have a good look really.

[Hoovie]

I'm with the general consensus here ... take it back and get the wonga back! And don't touch a thing on the car to give any excuses to the selling company.

It may well be that if it is a pile 'em high car supermarket, they in all honesty didn't know of any problems and will do the right thing without any hesitation, but I would go for a refund not repair offer.

[bothwell_buyer]

Pretty much support the above. If the garage quibble, I'd get another mechanic to test the oil pressure on the engine.

Last thing you want is a dead body lying in your driveway with an expensive engine replacement required.

[thedigger]

Thanks for the replies so far.

My wife called them a few minutes ago (unfortunately due to my job, I can't make personal calls during the day easily :( ). They tried to fob her off saying it's the oil pressure switch, and we should bring it to them (ie, drive it) to get it looked at. They then tried to sell us a service on the car, at £80.

They said if it's not making a metallic noise, there's no problem.... but if we hear a metallic sound, cut the engine immediately "as we have about a minute before the engine starts getting damaged". I'd say any metal-on-metal contact at at least 800 RPM is pretty much a dead (or severely weakened) engine immediately!! I suppose I should take comfort in the fact that they aren't denying responsibility for the problem, so kudos to them.

I've asked my wife to run the engine, see if the light comes on, and if so, record the sound of the engine for me - she wasn't really sure what the engine was supposed to sound like, so wasn't sure if she could judge if it sounds different.

I think I've concinced myself that a build up of sludge is starving the engine of oil, especially having googled the issue a bit more and seen it's fairly common.

And rest assured, I won't change anything on the car myself.

[Davrav]

Sound as if they will tell you anything.

Just write to them rejecting the vehicle as unfit for purpose. Outline your reasons and request that they collect it as it is not safe to drive. Mention the sale of goods act too.

Keep everything factual and polite and, make a copy and send the letter by recorded delivery.

If you do have any phone conversations, record dates, names and what was said.

Hopefully unnecessary but 'belt and braces' should they get difficult.

[CharlieFarlie]

Trust Me on this one just reject that car ASAP ! They could put any damn thing in that engine as I said above.. Then in 3 or 4 weeks You are up $hit creek...

To say that if its not making a metallic noise its fine is just ridiculous and should indicate to You what a bunch of clowns they are !!

Jedis suggestion of removing the sump is almost as ridiculous as the moment You put a spanner on the car Your rights are gone..

Davids ( Davrav) way of approach is the way to go. If You continue to drive the car and it goes bang They will then claim negligence on Your part ..

One look inside that filler cap should tell You that all is not well. You have not answered My question. Did You get the car inspected or carry out any checks before You bought the car ??

In a private deal You would be screwed. But in this case You do have a comeback but I urge You to act extremely quickly and reject the car immediately....

[thedigger]

Charlie, I plan on rejecting the car but can't do that until I'm at home - I'm gonna say the engine sounds like crap, I've found a load of junk inside the filler cap and the engine is dying.

We asked them specifically whether we should drive the car back to them, just to prevent them saying we were being negligent by driving it.

It's a large used car dealer, we have a receipt and we paid by credit card so I'm satisified that we are covered on all bases. I don't want to wade in demanding my money back immediately as I want them to see what a bag of nails they've sold me, and hopefully resolve it amicably before even considering small claims courts.

[Davrav]

Damian, you don't want to get into any kind of negotiation on this one. Simply point out politely that the car is not fit for purpose and get a refund. These 'Car Supermarket' type places are often 'here today, gone tomorrow' and have a high turnover of sales personnel too.

I know it's disappointing, especially when the rest of the car looks good but it's not that difficult to superficially smarten up a car.

Make sure you have everything on paper

[Hoovie]

Charlie, I plan on rejecting the car but can't do that until I'm at home - I'm gonna say the engine sounds like crap, I've found a load of junk inside the filler cap and the engine is dying.

We asked them specifically whether we should drive the car back to them, just to prevent them saying we were being negligent by driving it.

It's a large used car dealer, we have a receipt and we paid by credit card so I'm satisified that we are covered on all bases. I don't want to wade in demanding my money back immediately as I want them to see what a bag of nails they've sold me, and hopefully resolve it amicably before even considering small claims courts.

I would suggest that you call the Credit Card company ASAP just to advise them that you intend to reject a purchase made using their card as 'Not Fit for Purpose' just so that is logged on their system and you can tell the dealer the same.

As you did use a card, you really don't need to worry about small claims court etc and are in a very good position as regards protecting your payment.

[Tech01]

Tell them to take the car back, and refund.

DO NOT drive the car back to them, or drive it anywhere. They could accuse you of driving with a known fault and aggravating the situation.

INSIST that they collect the vehicle from you.

Remain polite and calm, and don't part with any original receipts or paperwork. If things get difficult, immediately contact your local Trading Standards Office.

This engine is serious trouble.

Good luck,

Chris

[thedigger]

The car is going back this weekend. I'll get the AA to take it there. We haven't agreed a refund yet, but I've checked that a refund is possible if I don't deem the car to be adequately repaired.

He seems to think it's a faulty pressure switch. I don't see this. As soon as I got home last night, I googled the oil light issue and not one person had a faulty pressure switch. A few had dead engines.

Just to clarify (ammunition for when I drop the car off), there is no "faulty pressure switch" issue affecting these engines?

[Parts-King]

Rejecting a car within 28 days is not a legal right and you may not be able to do that. They may operate their own 30 day exchange, check with the manager

It is clear that a car bought with a duff engine is not fit for purpose, however, you have to give them the option to put it right first. It may turn out to be a faulty switch but then again............who knows?

Call them and speak to the manager. Explain you are not going to drive the car, and get them to recover it.

Write to the company, politely, stating the fault and what you want done about it. You may wish to tell them you are rejecting the car, but if it turns out to be just the switch, then I doubt you could. Give them a timeline to get it sorted out, say 10 days, and if it is not sorted by then, you may reject the car. Send it recorded delivery. It is THEIR responsibility to sort it out, not yours, stick to your guns and be polite at all times, but you need to be firm. You may wish to get the car independantly checked out, if that is the case, you MIGHT be able to claim your money back for that too if they give you a refund for the car. If they are any half decent company, they may well do this for you and pay the costs

Good luck

Kingo

[thedigger]

Thanks Kingo.

Much as it may be tempting to slam the keys on their desk and demand my money back, I realise I have to play by their games a bit. And, like you say, if it turns out to be a sensor, I've got the car I wanted a week ago and everyone is happy.

I'd like to keep everything amicable; from the other side, I'd be less inclined to help someone if they were making rash demands and telling me how to do my job. I'm sure this isn't the first car he's sold that there have been problems with.

They've already said they'll take on any repairs to the car (if indeed it is fixable) and will loan us another car while this is being done, which I think is fairly reasonable. My eye is firmly on the clock though, and there's no way I'll let their warranty period elapse without being 100% with the car.

[Parts-King]

Yes thats the right attitude to adopt. He who shouts loudest does not always get what he wants

The clock is ticking but time is on your side at the moment

I know it's frustrating but there is a due process, which is not always as fast as you would like it to be. It sounds like they are being resonable so far, BUT keep up the pressure, nothing wrong it getting that letter off tonight and asking for a response. If you can get the dealer principls name and mail it to him, you are less likely to be fobbed off. Keep us informed of developments

Kingo

[thedigger]

Sounds good.

I will see the dealer at the weekend before writing the letter. It seems a little pointless complaining that a vehicle is unfit for purpose - if it can be repaired completed.

I've already found details about the company, such as Managing Director (the guy I'm dealing with incidentally) and their incorporation date (they've been around since 2001 so not too worried about them disappearing any time soon).

[Andy Pigott]

Agree with Kingo. Polite but firm - they have a reputation to keep intact too. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[thedigger]

Agree with Kingo. Polite but firm - they have a reputation to keep intact too. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Cheers Andy, will do.

As an aside, I think we have worked together if you are the same Andy Pigott I'm thinking of!