The Electric Rav

[Gods_gift]

Ive read a bit a bout Tesla and Toyota teaming up to produce an Electric Rav. Anyideas of when it's out, it's range and could it tow anything?

Im hoping they are aiming for a range of 300 ish miles (like the model s will have). I'd defo consider it if they can hit that mark as £60 a tank three times a week is killing me.

[Joylove]

But they have the Auris, RX and Prius hybrids, the most advanced hybrids on the market, being 2nd or 3rd generation. Not sure what they can learn from Tesla! I wonder if it's a 4x4 hybrid system for the Model X?

[Davrav]

Here's an article on the RAV4 EV

http://www.popularme...type-test-drive

[Tech01]

For an absolutely fascinating insight into the recent development (and commercial blocking) of all-electric (as opposed to hybrid) cars, take a look at

"Who Killed the Electric Car?"

- a 2006 2-hour documentary (More4 screened it in March 2009). Google the title, and also see Wikipedia. (Also available on DVD from Amazon - but be careful about the Region code.)

Hybrids? In my opinion a dead end, being promoted for obvious reasons. Many petrol-hybrids are put to shame by decent straight diesels . . . Prius is a good case in point.

The film has LOTS about RAV4-EV and Tesla!

Chris

[Joylove]

Hybrids are nowhere near a dead end IMO. In America,where the diesel car is about 5% of new sales due to the cast of diesel compared to petrol, the Prius is in the top ten of slowest depreciating cars. Surprisingly so since the older ones must be approaching or passing a Battery replacement point.

The medium term future is cars like the Chevy volt and the new PSA hybrid, where small petrol and diesel engines drive a generator to generate power for the electric drive. This subtle difference allows the engine to operate over a very small or fixed rpm, meaning it can run very high compression ratios and miller or lean burn cycles, combined with perfectly tuned inlet and exhaust manifolds as well as shaped pistons and fuel injection. This makes mpgs soar to about double what we get from the existing uses of internal combustion, along with simplifying a few of the more troublesome parts of the fuelling and clutches we have now.

Until hydrogen come online, and I'm yet to see anyone ready to invest in ripping up every forecourt in the world to achieve the delivery system, the hybrid is the future.

[Manxrav]

I personally think that PSA have stolen the march with their Diesel/ hybrid development. Most manufacturers do petrol/hybrid engines, but I think the way ahead is the Diesel/hybrid engine. Can you imagine the MPG of a 1.4 D4D/Hybrid Toyota engine, it beggars belief.

Regards Clare

[Hoovie]

I like the idea of Electric cars but I think some of the reality of them is either swept under the carpet, conveniently ignored or just plan forgotten about, and that bugs me just a little.

For example, the producers of that film have these claims to promote Electric cars ...

1. Electricity is cheaper than gas, and can come from renewable resources such as solar and wind power.

That *could* be a benefit IF Renewable sources supplied 100% of Electric production - but they do not (and are unlikely to be able to do that in the foreseeable future). So the extra incremental use of the electricity to charge an Electric is bound to come from either Fossil Fuels or Nuclear.

2. Electric cars pollute less than gas-powered cars (especially when renewable energy sources are used to generate the electricity).

See 1.

4. By using domestically-generated electricity rather than relying on foreign oil, we can achieve energy independence and will no longer need to engage in costly wars in the Middle East to secure an energy supply.

Obviously a person with a specific political agenda separate from just Electric cars. Nothing wrong with that, but it clouds their impartiality and dilutes their argument IMO (oh, and see 1. as well ref HOW you generate the electricity)

5. Electric cars can utilize the existing electric grid rather than require the development of a new, expensive energy infrastructure (as would be the case with hydrogen).

This assumes there is sufficient extra capacity in both electric power stations and the distribution network for Electric cars as a standard as apposed to remaining a niche product (should be ok if recharging overnight I guess). I understand that the Electricity Generation ability is currently near to capacity and will need significant overhaul and investment soon.

And there is a question about where electric car users recharge.

Not everyone (actually very few in percentage terms in reality) would be able to plug in their car to a socket in their garage. What do the millions of people who have to park their cars on the street do? Sounds like a new energy distribution infrastructure will be required to be developed to me?

Now I am NOT against electric cars but regarding them as the Saviour of motoring like some groups seem to is naive to me.

Renewable Energy - great stuff! And in my last house, I designed a hot water setup using Solar Panels, plus Combi Boiler plus Aga all integrated together in a single solution, so the only stored hot water was 'free' hot water and I still had all the hot water I needed on demand.

As far as cars go, I think a hybrid is the way to go personally, but with the batteries being recharged by harvested energy not just by plugging into a power socket.

Just my 2 pennies worth :)

[Manxrav]

Plus you have the cost of the batteries, I know some Manufacturers charge for them plus you have the setting up costs for said car with the electric supply point don,t think you just plug in a 3 pin plug!!!!!!

Hoovie your idea of the car using Solar power top-up must be developed, ie Solar panel in roof

Regards Clare

[Joylove]

Even if you never plug it into the mains, if the fossil fuel engine can do 85MPG (petrol) and 120MPG (diesel) and still accelerate to 60 in 6 seconds is a no brainer for next gen drivetrains.

When you do plug it into the mains, you get the increased efficiency that large scale power generation provides in converting fossil fuel to electricity when compared to a portable system operating across a wide range of RPMs. However batteries are wasteful and polluting, as well as converting electrical energy to mechanical energy is only about 35% efficient.

Ideally the tens of millions of R&D budget that each manufacturer can bring to the development of FETs, regen braking, motors and Battery technology will improve these numbers until the Battery required is little more than a suitcase sized device being contantly charged and discharged by the fossil fuel engine and the drivesystem.

[jedi134]

I agree with Joylove and Co. B)

A diesel engine at a fixed load, RPM, and in lean burn mode capable of 100+mpg, running a generator .......seems the way to go.

Electric motors will out preform a combustion engine all day long I belive, lots of Torque, and huge RPM.

Just a shame they draw so much current........

Take for example the normal Krypton torch bulb and now the new Cree LED`s this technology has come on 10 fold, the Cree led is brighter and draws less current.

If only electric motor technology was the same.............Lots of power but small curect drain

[Tech01]

Yes, yes, yes...

We'll all really miss the fuel pumps and DMFs, the clogged manifolds and dodgy injectors, the worn-out 5th gears, and the Yankee auto-boxes going pop. And choosing the correct grade of oil, of course!

Electric motors? No diffs, no gearboxes, massively efficient, almost silent, few moving parts . . .

Batteries? 90mph and/or 100-mile range - It's here now, let alone what's coming in the next couple of years. Take, also, a look at the Renault 'Zoe' - and their range of small and large vans . . . and a big saloon for later this year. And their Battery offer: £75pcm for as long as it's serviceable, and then you get a new one. Predictable and budgetable.

Will I miss internal combustion? Do I miss the steam engine, or the dynamo, or gas lighting, or coal fires?

And, remember, electricity is not a source of energy - it's just a means of moving energy about.

Let's enjoy the last few years of gasoline and diesel by all means, and then be ready to consign them to the Collectors' era.

Chris

PS - Dad was an electrical engineer!

[Hoovie]

...

Take for example the normal Krypton torch bulb and now the new Cree LED`s this technology has come on 10 fold, the Cree led is brighter and draws less current.

If only electric motor technology was the same.............Lots of power but small curect drain

That is the key thing to make the Electric Car viable in the mainstream.

The kind of advances that have been made in lighting, where the output has become nearly equivalent for around what?, 1/30th the power usage? needs to somehow find their way into the automotive propulsion area

I am sure it will happen eventually, but not holding my breath on that one.

[Joylove]

The LED for the massive domestic marketplace is an interesting one. Philips has invested heavily in it, however it has competition from fluorescent lighting which itself is fairly efficient and very cheap, if somewhat unpleasant to be lit with. Perhaps combined with smart-home lighting it might take off.

[DominicPriestley]

I cant get my head around why there aren't more Battery powered Bikes around. For a commute of 30miles its the best option (apart from the weather of course). The car should, in time be for longer journeys, the commute should be done on battety powered Suzuki VanVan's with companies offering free plug-in points.

[shcm]

...

Take for example the normal Krypton torch bulb and now the new Cree LED`s this technology has come on 10 fold, the Cree led is brighter and draws less current.

If only electric motor technology was the same.............Lots of power but small curect drain

That is the key thing to make the Electric Car viable in the mainstream.

The kind of advances that have been made in lighting, where the output has become nearly equivalent for around what?, 1/30th the power usage? needs to somehow find their way into the automotive propulsion area

I am sure it will happen eventually, but not holding my breath on that one.

Erm, yes, I don't think you appreciate what you are saying and not thinking about, or appreciating, or not understaning the physics. Do some really basic physics, because some are clearly not ready for the advanced stuff.

Assume 100% efficiency for everything (no losses). Let's say we want to accel a 1500kg vehicle to 60mph (26.67 m/s) in say, what 10s is reasonable.

so we have to put 1/2*m*V^2 energy in. (Kinetic energy) So 0.5*1500*(26.67^2) = 533 kJ

Electrical energy = I*V*t. What voltage do you want to run at. Shall we say 400 (F1 Kers Battery is supposed to be roughly that)? so

I= 533kJ/(400*10) = 133 Amps. There's not a lot else you can do. Up the voltage perhaps? OK, as far as the insulation in the windings can take it. But really, more power out and less amps? get real!

Oh, and if you check, electric motor efficiency for a bad one is about 70% and about 95% for a good one. Compare that with a diesel, which, being a heat engine is about 40% efficient. People have cared about motor efficiency for a very long time. A large percentage of power generation goes into motors of one form or another, so it matters. I'm sure the train companies care!

With the LEDs, incandescent bulbs were only 10% efficient, so there was massive gains to be had. Electric motors are very good. It's almost direct engery conversion (thank you Faraday).

Elec motors are not the problem. In my opinion the thing to solve is the Battery (or other energy storage) technology and the infrastructure. I can "recharge" my current heat engine vehicle 400+ mile range in about 2 minutes. That's very convenient. I don't have to plan when I drive and when I recharge, or stop too long to recharge.

Let's take a figure of 32.5Kwh per 100 miles from here:

http://www.saxton.or.../efficiency.php

So I want 400 miles @ 32.5kWh. Let's say my Battery is 400V. I've got to chuck in 32.5kWh * 4 in 2 minutes. That's (32.5*4*(60/2)) = 3.9Mwatts for 2 minutes. Or about the nominal output of about 4, 65m diameter wind turbines for 2 minutes. Oh and 9750 amps. @ 1000A per sq inch, those are chunky cables (and probably a molten battery). How many people "refuelling" at any one time? That's a lot of power generation. Of couse, if you recharge overnight and reduce the range, it becomes a bit more manageable (100 mile range @ 8 hrs = 4kWh or about 2 electric fires all night), but it's very inconvenient!

Regen braking, yes, helps.

Next time you fill your car, stop to think about the energy transfer. Also think about the amount of energy when driving it and dissipated in the brake discs when braking!

I've seen a couple of articles (one here) on improvements in batteries, which is encouraging, but a long way to go, I suspect:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...nology-15735478

Hydrogen fuel cells and motors possibly. So unless I've made a massive mistake with my over simplified calcs above (and I'm wondering), we are all going to have to change our habits or it's going to be a while yet before we have the convenience of oil from something else.

EDIT: in the words of Richard Hammond "Magic Electric Pixies"

[Hoovie]

thing is Andy. you are in the real world. I am just stating a wish and saying 'go do' ignoring what is possible :)

[Gods_gift]

In that case we need nuclear reactor in a small form factor coupled to a lecy motor in about the space of a D4D 2.2 litre lump. Bet the Russians in the good old USSR would have done that.

Back to reality why is it such a challenge to make a diesel electric car based on how long we've had train technology? Look at the inter city trains done a smashing job since the 60's. Is it only the Battery tech holding all this back? Surely someone has had a crack at shrinking batteries?

[shcm]

you are in the real world. I am just stating a wish and saying 'go do' ignoring what is possible :)

Some wouldn't say that. :) I have been told I'm "surfing the edge of the envelope" at times :D.

I can also appear to be "Mr Negative". I think that's just the nature of engineers. If you overstate something, some sales or other person, not fully able to grasp the full implications, will turn it into something you can't possibly make at the time. Best to understate, knowing that you can be quietly confident of pulling it off. I think it's called pragmatism :).

Back to reality why is it such a challenge to make a diesel electric car based on how long we've had train technology? Look at the inter city trains done a smashing job since the 60's. Is it only the battery tech holding all this back? Surely someone has had a crack at shrinking batteries?

I think the hybrids are fine. As has been state on here and on "Top Gear" tonight, you can make great efficiencies running the oil burner as a generator. Provided the power to weight ratio doesn't suffer.

They've been doing it on ships for a while. No drive shaft, engine running generators -> motors turning propellers in "pods".

I really think the base of the problem is energy storage and transfer, but that just my opinion. I'd love a straight electric vehicle with all the convenience of oil. Dream on....but one day......

[junebug1701]

For an absolutely fascinating insight into the recent development (and commercial blocking) of all-electric (as opposed to hybrid) cars, take a look at

"Who Killed the Electric Car?"

- a 2006 2-hour documentary (More4 screened it in March 2009). Google the title, and also see Wikipedia. (Also available on DVD from Amazon - but be careful about the Region code.)

The film has LOTS about RAV4-EV and Tesla!

I agree, it's an excellent film. Also look for the follow-up: "Revenge of the Electric Car" which I haven't seen yet but it's said to be as good or better than the first one.

[Joylove]

Back to reality why is it such a challenge to make a diesel electric car based on how long we've had train technology?

This 5m of bland is the first diesel hybrid, and Volvo have one coming soon too.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/peugeot/3008-crossover/2-0-hdi-fap-hybrid4-99g-5dr/summary/61290

As to why we haven't had one until now, it's a combination of R&D cost, weight, control systems, motor and gearbox technology, investment from governments, cheap fuel, lax emmisions, Battery tech and desire from the public.

[Tech01]

My copy is on its way from Amazon.

Chris

[Bristim]

I cant get my head around why there aren't more battery powered Bikes around. For a commute of 30miles its the best option (apart from the weather of course). The car should, in time be for longer journeys, the commute should be done on battety powered Suzuki VanVan's with companies offering free plug-in points.

Check out Zero Motorcycles...

[Manxrav]

A,la TT Zero, now in it,s third year and the "big boys" ( John Macguiness) are entering this year. Unheard of when it started!!!!

Regards Clare

[Tech01]

I watched this stunning DVD yesterday, the update to "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

They have arrived, at last. Expect the oil companies to fight hard now, especially as range passes the 200-mile barrier.

Battery life a problem and an unknown? Take a look at the Renault-Nissan site: c£75pcm "all in", with the Zoe half the price of the Leaf. That's the way to sell 'em.

See also Toyota-Tesla partnership.

Both DVDs available from Amazon.