Toyota Avensis T180 V Avensis 2.2 150Bhp Version

[Facchino]

Hi all

Just signed up - I am looking to replace my ancient 406 estate in April.

I had shortlisted the cars I was looking at to the following

Avensis

Mazda 6

Accord

My money is likely to get me between a 56-58 plate depending on spec levels and mileage (on any of the 3 vehicles) -the one thing I will not pass on is having sat nav, the car needs a built in sat nav/entertainment console. Just something I have wanted in a car for a long time and now is the time I can finally get one. No satnav, not interested.

I had thought the mazda 136hp model was the one for me - but after reading their servicing costs are pretty high and the age of the vehicle I would be getting would be due a cambelt replacement in the minimum 2 years I would own the car, I believe the Avensis is more suited to my needs as it is from what I can read, cheaper to run and maintain, has a cam chain not belt, and also a marginally larger boot and better specced for the money.

However, there are some questions regarding the 2 powerful diesel models in the range.

Power

Firstly, the preferred model is the T180, nicer level of kit inside and more oomph (at least on paper) but has anyone here ran both models for any time and does the bigger power output translate into real world performance.

Have seen things about it being flat under 2000 rpm, but given how slow my 406 is even if it only puts down 120bhp at low revs its going to be quicker than that! Does anyone have some in gear performance figures, 30-70, 50-70 in top etc etc. Just like to know a bit more about the engines performance. Perhaps these figures for both power outputs?

Is the extra power worthwhile over the 150bhp model? I do want a car with some decent in gear power, drive a bit with work and would be nice to have that extra go on the A roads and motorways, but something that wont be massively expensive on the towns runs I do.

Fuel economy

Claimed figures of around 37mpg urban, which again is better than my old 406 HDi is getting according to the trip computer, averaging 29mpg currently as long overdue a service but I am utterly loathe to spend any more on the thing before replacing it...(engine on 210k so very old)

Having read a bit about this car, I see some claim they are getting these good MPG figures, and others decry them as unachievable and only be hitting 30ish, so I may as well get a petrol at those rates.

I can live with the fact the car is not the most attractive out there, if for my money I get a good reliable engine, decent performance and big boot.

Sorry for long intro post, but what better place to get some decent answers and information than here.

Thanks for reading

Regards

F

[Mistermena]

Welcome to TOC.

Okay... I have a 2007 T-180 estate. As you are aware the T-180 is the top of the model range so its packed with all the toys like electric leather seats, 9 air bags (Including 2 knee, which is standard) and has an in dash sat nav. There are 2 that you could have, the one I've got pops out of the dash and isn't voice activated, the other is the better TNS700 that sits in the dash which is a better option (Look for the like this in the car http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1423.l2649) and something I've not yet fitted.

The 2.2 AD power unit is great when the Headgasket doesn't fail! as mine has done twice! This issue (As well as the EGR valve) is covered under Toyota's fantastic good will 7 year 112k extended warranty. Once the HG goes it means a new 3/4 engine (Basically a brand new engine from Japan without the Turbo, pumps etc) so to date I've had 13k worth of engine from Mr T! But I'm not alone as there are other members on here that have had replacement engines and some on there 2nd. The HG problems are not just with the 2.2 power units! it also affects the 2.0ltr ones. So look for a car that has either had the new modified pistons and block, or buy a car that is well within the cut off period allowed by Toyota. So thats the bad bit!... Now to some good bits.

The mpg on the 2.2 T-180 isn't that bad for the size and weight! But you lose about 5mpg against the 2ltr oil burner due to the D-CAT system that uses a 5th injector to clean up the !Removed! that all derv's pump out. Using a piggy-back tuning box gains you mpg when used in conjection with a K&N air filter. I gained an extra 12mpg @70mph on the motorway by using a tuning box. I'm getting 41mpg round town atm.

The original Bosch discs and pads are rubbish so many of us have change them so we dont go screeming down the hill and into the little old lady thats waiting on the bus stop! so thats something to change if you buy one. You have to use a C2 spec oil like Mobil 1 ESP or you could get into some problems with these chain driven lumps! And not all are driven by these as some use the cam belt systems.

The 6 speed box is lovely when its at running temp! But when its could they can be a bar stuid to select 1st gear and crunch into 2nd! Using a straight 75w grade oil (Like Silkolen Pro SRG ester) does help alot with these triple syncro boxes!

I've not had any problems with the car below 2000rpm as it pulls like a train! The 1st gear doesnt get you going enough (Worse in the Lexus 220d sport) because of the gearing! but as soon as you're out of it then they really do fly!

Would I still buy a T-180 over a 150bhp lump?.... Ummmmm! Hell yes! These cars are pocket rockets when you wont them to be!... But if you want less hassel then go for the 150 as you dont have the worry of the !Removed! expensive D-Cat system (And 5th injector) and bolt on a tuning box to bring it upto the T-180bhp!... Mine is running at about 200bhp! But I'm not worried about the extra grunt that you get! just want the mpg advantage.

So many more bits of info that I could give you! But it'll take me all night! lol...

My mate Scott will be along in a min to fill in the blanks that I've missed :P :D

Hope this helps

Taff

[Heidfirst]

Hi there & welcome to the forum ;)

The T180 is definitely that wee bit more urgent but it's also noticeably thirstier (due to the DPF perhaps as much as tune) - probably 10% or more. It could also be more expensive to insure.

All modern, complicated turbo-diesels are potentially expensive to maintain once the mileage starts to get up there (DMF, DPF, turbos, injectors).

It's worth reading the pinned post at the top of the Avensis forum re. diesels as it will also introduce you to a potential problem & how Toyota have dealt/deal with it.

If you aren't doing the annual mileage for fuel savings to outweigh potential extra maintenance I strongly recommend considering petrol.

As for manufacturers claimed mpg v real world maybe worth reading http://www.guardian....vo-eco-cred-car & similar.

Over the year & mixed motoring I probably average 45mpg in my 150bhp 2.2 estate.

Oh & updating the satnav disc is expensive (£150)- albeit I don't think that Toyota are any worse in this regard than others - cheaper to get a TomTom etc. or smartphone with satnav app.

From what I understand the Accord is likely to be dearer than an Avensis for equiv. age/spec/mileage & it's diesel engine isn't without problems either.

Imo the Avensis is probably the best value for money of the 3 that you list.

My mate Scott will be along in a min to fill in the blanks that I've missed :P :D

was obviously composing as you posted! :P :P :P

Forgot to mention the oem brakes being average & we both forgot to mention allowing for replacing poor oem headlights with better bulbs

[Facchino]

Welcome to TOC.

Would I still buy a T-180 over a 150bhp lump?.... Ummmmm! Hell yes! These cars are pocket rockets when you wont them to be!... But if you want less hassel then go for the 150 as you dont have the worry of the !Removed! expensive D-Cat system (And 5th injector) and bolt on a tuning box to bring it upto the T-180bhp!... Mine is running at about 200bhp! But I'm not worried about the extra grunt that you get! just want the mpg advantage.

So many more bits of info that I could give you! But it'll take me all night! lol...

My mate Scott will be along in a min to fill in the blanks that I've missed :P :D

Hope this helps

Taff

Thanks for the welcome and detailed reply - some great info provided. (wow I am on another forum that uses the same "back end" as this but you have better emoticons!)

A few more questions if I may then please...

The tuning box (to go with a K&N Air Filter) - where and how much was the device you purchased, did you fit yourself or what did a garage cost you?

41pmg around town is brilliant for a powerful car...

Discs/Pads - anything you could recommend?

The cars I am looking at are beyond that 112k mile generally, some like this so could I get information from Toyota on a vehicles maintenance history, if the seller doesn't have it. No way I want to be lumbered with a car that needs loads of work doing, the appeal of the toyota is the reliability they have as well.

Avensis T180

Avensis T180 57plate

[Heidfirst]

the good tuning boxes are £4-500 new but you may find 1 s/h. (& your insurance may go up again).

The Denso ECU as far as we know has yet to have it's encryption cracked hence piggy back boxes only not remaps.

Not sure that the K&N is worth it.

MTEC discs with Ferodo Premier pads on mine - MrM uses MTEC/Mintex pads.

[Mistermena]

Welcome to TOC.

Okay... I have a 2007 T-180 estate. As you are aware the T-180 is the top of the model range so its packed with all the toys like electric leather seats, 9 air bags (Including 2 knee, which is standard) and has an in dash sat nav. There are 2 that you could have, the one I've got pops out of the dash and isn't voice activated, the other is the better TNS700 that sits in the dash which is a better option (Look for the like this in the car http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1423.l2649) and something I've not yet fitted.

The 2.2 AD power unit is great when the Headgasket doesn't fail! as mine has done twice! This issue (As well as the EGR valve) is covered under Toyota's fantastic good will 7 year 112k extended warranty. Once the HG goes it means a new 3/4 engine (Basically a brand new engine from Japan without the Turbo, pumps etc) so to date I've had 13k worth of engine from Mr T! But I'm not alone as there are other members on here that have had replacement engines and some on there 2nd. The HG problems are not just with the 2.2 power units! it also affects the 2.0ltr ones. So look for a car that has either had the new modified pistons and block, or buy a car that is well within the cut off period allowed by Toyota. So thats the bad bit!... Now to some good bits.

The mpg on the 2.2 T-180 isn't that bad for the size and weight! But you lose about 5mpg against the 2ltr oil burner due to the D-CAT system that uses a 5th injector to clean up the !Removed! that all derv's pump out. Using a piggy-back tuning box gains you mpg when used in conjection with a K&N air filter. I gained an extra 12mpg @70mph on the motorway by using a tuning box. I'm getting 41mpg round town atm.

The original Bosch discs and pads are rubbish so many of us have change them so we dont go screeming down the hill and into the little old lady thats waiting on the bus stop! so thats something to change if you buy one. You have to use a C2 spec oil like Mobil 1 ESP or you could get into some problems with these chain driven lumps! And not all are driven by these as some use the cam belt systems.

The 6 speed box is lovely when its at running temp! But when its could they can be a bar stuid to select 1st gear and crunch into 2nd! Using a straight 75w grade oil (Like Silkolen Pro SRG ester) does help alot with these triple syncro boxes!

I've not had any problems with the car below 2000rpm as it pulls like a train! The 1st gear doesnt get you going enough (Worse in the Lexus 220d sport) because of the gearing! but as soon as you're out of it then they really do fly!

Would I still buy a T-180 over a 150bhp lump?.... Ummmmm! Hell yes! These cars are pocket rockets when you wont them to be!... But if you want less hassel then go for the 150 as you dont have the worry of the !Removed! expensive D-Cat system (And 5th injector) and bolt on a tuning box to bring it upto the T-180bhp!... Mine is running at about 200bhp! But I'm not worried about the extra grunt that you get! just want the mpg advantage.

So many more bits of info that I could give you! But it'll take me all night! lol...

My mate Scott will be along in a min to fill in the blanks that I've missed :P :D

Hope this helps

Taff

Thanks for the welcome and detailed reply - some great info provided. (wow I am on another forum that uses the same "back end" as this but you have better emoticons!)

A few more questions if I may then please...

The tuning box (to go with a K&N Air Filter) - where and how much was the device you purchased, did you fit yourself or what did a garage cost you?

41pmg around town is brilliant for a powerful car...

Discs/Pads - anything you could recommend?

The cars I am looking at are beyond that 112k mile generally, some like this so could I get information from Toyota on a vehicles maintenance history, if the seller doesn't have it. No way I want to be lumbered with a car that needs loads of work doing, the appeal of the toyota is the reliability they have as well.

Avensis T180

Avensis T180 57plate

The tuning box I have is called a "TUNIT" they are very expensive new @£485!!! But you can pick them up off eBay (Like I did) 2nd hand for between £130-£150! I have 2 of these boxes running on my cars and never had a problem at all. Both mine still had over 2years warranty remaining on them, so all good there. Tunit have had very good reviews! Take a Google search for them, there are other boxes out there, but I wouldn't touch half of them as some just fool the Denso ECU into pumping more fuel in as if it was a cold engine.

Both myself and Scott have gone for MTEC discs and pads! My set up were the Black drilled and groved with Mintex pads and Scott used the better Ferodo ones as he's a rich lad and I'm just a poor Welsh valley lad that has to eat coal for me supper! :blink:

Both cars look nice tbh!.... But I'd be very carful as it doesn't matter if they have a full Toyota service history, as these engines can go pop at any time! I'd be looking at ones that are below the 112k or unless you know that the car has been sorted out!

[Mistermena]

Welcome to TOC.

Okay... I have a 2007 T-180 estate. As you are aware the T-180 is the top of the model range so its packed with all the toys like electric leather seats, 9 air bags (Including 2 knee, which is standard) and has an in dash sat nav. There are 2 that you could have, the one I've got pops out of the dash and isn't voice activated, the other is the better TNS700 that sits in the dash which is a better option (Look for the like this in the car http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1423.l2649) and something I've not yet fitted.

The 2.2 AD power unit is great when the Headgasket doesn't fail! as mine has done twice! This issue (As well as the EGR valve) is covered under Toyota's fantastic good will 7 year 112k extended warranty. Once the HG goes it means a new 3/4 engine (Basically a brand new engine from Japan without the Turbo, pumps etc) so to date I've had 13k worth of engine from Mr T! But I'm not alone as there are other members on here that have had replacement engines and some on there 2nd. The HG problems are not just with the 2.2 power units! it also affects the 2.0ltr ones. So look for a car that has either had the new modified pistons and block, or buy a car that is well within the cut off period allowed by Toyota. So thats the bad bit!... Now to some good bits.

The mpg on the 2.2 T-180 isn't that bad for the size and weight! But you lose about 5mpg against the 2ltr oil burner due to the D-CAT system that uses a 5th injector to clean up the !Removed! that all derv's pump out. Using a piggy-back tuning box gains you mpg when used in conjection with a K&N air filter. I gained an extra 12mpg @70mph on the motorway by using a tuning box. I'm getting 41mpg round town atm.

The original Bosch discs and pads are rubbish so many of us have change them so we dont go screeming down the hill and into the little old lady thats waiting on the bus stop! so thats something to change if you buy one. You have to use a C2 spec oil like Mobil 1 ESP or you could get into some problems with these chain driven lumps! And not all are driven by these as some use the cam belt systems.

The 6 speed box is lovely when its at running temp! But when its could they can be a bar stuid to select 1st gear and crunch into 2nd! Using a straight 75w grade oil (Like Silkolen Pro SRG ester) does help alot with these triple syncro boxes!

I've not had any problems with the car below 2000rpm as it pulls like a train! The 1st gear doesnt get you going enough (Worse in the Lexus 220d sport) because of the gearing! but as soon as you're out of it then they really do fly!

Would I still buy a T-180 over a 150bhp lump?.... Ummmmm! Hell yes! These cars are pocket rockets when you wont them to be!... But if you want less hassel then go for the 150 as you dont have the worry of the !Removed! expensive D-Cat system (And 5th injector) and bolt on a tuning box to bring it upto the T-180bhp!... Mine is running at about 200bhp! But I'm not worried about the extra grunt that you get! just want the mpg advantage.

So many more bits of info that I could give you! But it'll take me all night! lol...

My mate Scott will be along in a min to fill in the blanks that I've missed :P :D

Hope this helps

Taff

Thanks for the welcome and detailed reply - some great info provided. (wow I am on another forum that uses the same "back end" as this but you have better emoticons!)

A few more questions if I may then please...

The tuning box (to go with a K&N Air Filter) - where and how much was the device you purchased, did you fit yourself or what did a garage cost you?

41pmg around town is brilliant for a powerful car...

Discs/Pads - anything you could recommend?

The cars I am looking at are beyond that 112k mile generally, some like this so could I get information from Toyota on a vehicles maintenance history, if the seller doesn't have it. No way I want to be lumbered with a car that needs loads of work doing, the appeal of the toyota is the reliability they have as well.

Avensis T180

Avensis T180 57plate

The tuning box I have is called a "TUNIT" they are very expensive new @£485!!! But you can pick them up off eBay (Like I did) 2nd hand for between £130-£150! I have 2 of these boxes running on my cars and never had a problem at all. Both mine still had over 2years warranty remaining on them, so all good there. Tunit have had very good reviews! Take a Google search for them, there are other boxes out there, but I wouldn't touch half of them as some just fool the Denso ECU into pumping more fuel in as if it was a cold engine. The Tunit box is a 5min job to do yourself! Just plugs into the fuel rail and away you go! My 12 year old daughter could do it! :clap:

Both myself and Scott have gone for MTEC discs and pads! My set up were the Black drilled and groved with Mintex pads and Scott used the better Ferodo ones as he's a rich lad and I'm just a poor Welsh valley lad that has to eat coal for me supper! :blink:

Both cars look nice tbh!.... But I'd be very carful as it doesn't matter if they have a full Toyota service history, as these engines can go pop at any time! I'd be looking at ones that are below the 112k or unless you know that the car has been sorted out!

the good tuning boxes are £4-500 new but you may find 1 s/h. (& your insurance may go up again).

The Denso ECU as far as we know has yet to have it's encryption cracked hence piggy back boxes only not remaps.

Not sure that the K&N is worth it.

MTEC discs with Ferodo Premier pads on mine - MrM uses MTEC/Mintex pads.

Lol... You beat me that time! hahahaha

[Facchino]

Cheers Scott and Taff.

OK - so far its basically change brake pads/discs and headlight bulbs probably around £200 ish?

Satnav disc needs updating at another £150 - not urgent but worth considering.

If I am doing around 15k miles a year, is that below the threshold for it being useful for a diesel? I look at a comparable Avensis Petrol and it gets 27mpg urban, so could be 5-8mpg down on the T180, with only 130bhp/120lb ft torque so must be a lot slower...I will try and do calculations but its seems for the same money on the car I get around 35-37mpg around town.

Looking at this calculator, it transpires that I get my costs back on fuel in year 0, so think diesel is still the answer. The price premium may apply to brand new or almost new cars, but in my budget range it seems to have almost gone, if not gone fully.

Cheers

[Mistermena]

If you're only doing 15k a year I wouldn't go for a oil burner mate! Stick with Petrol! Big difference in fuel price and easy service costs & prob cheaper that a diesel at the main Stealers! Unless you love the smell of diesel cars (Mrs M says it makes her horny! Lmao) so I tend to use it as an aftershave in the mornings! Maybe that why all my hairs fallen out!

[Heidfirst]

If I am doing around 15k miles a year, is that below the threshold for it being useful for a diesel?

it's getting into a grey, crossover zone.

Official service prices for petrol & diesel are the same but it's if you need engine related work that the differences kick in.

Anywhere over ~90K on diesel you may need new injectors (£1k) so check if any car has had new ones.

A new DMF & clutch is again probably getting on for £1k, a new DPF (if fitted) again is ~£1K, a new turbo is ~£1k.

You can probably save a bit by using non-oem parts & non-franchise garages but you can see how the expenses (& not just on Toyotas) potentially can add up.

With the newer Toyotas having a 5 year 100k mileage warranty it may be worth looking at a 1 year old car with 4 years warranty & flog it at the end of the warranty - you can get a 1 year old 1.8 140bhp petrol Avensis T27 estate (not Spirit trim though!) for ~£10.5k from a Toyota dealer.

[Facchino]

I have roughly between 4-6K budget, its a work thing and its down to me really but if I get a 6K vehicle I have it for 3-4 years, 4K would be 2 years (time to payoff the car finance etc)

I will check out some petrol models, but I dont think I am going to get the same sort of oomph for that money and 35mpg as well, which is what puts me off, some more research required.

Also - will have to create a list of all work I need to check on a vehicle over a certain mileage to ensure I don't get landed with a dud.

Thanks very much so far for your time and input - this stuff I have not read on any other website at all.

[Mistermena]

We aim to please!

If and when you look at a T-180, take off the black plastic rad cap and look at the coolant! It should be pink! if there is any sign of a "Black tinge" in it then walk away as the HG is gone. There will also be white streaks on the black plastic engine cover. If the cabin heater blows out cold air (When the engine is at running temp) then thats another sign that the head has gone. You also can get a gruggellling sound from the cabin heater sometimes...

The engines have a prolem wth the EGR valve that clogs up and buggers the pistons! Make sure no dash lights stay on that shouldn't! Running the car on V-Power helps clean the valve as well as BG244 in the fuel...

Keep us posted on how you get on...

[Heidfirst]

Thanks very much so far for your time and input - this stuff I have not read on any other website at all.

they are good cars & most people won't hit these issues so please don't get the wrong idea but we are just letting you know that these issues exist (as other manufacturers cars have their issues).

[pault38]

Well i am biased but i'd go for a 150 without the dpf and then chip it. I reckon i could have a standard t180 but you dont see many or the road and then they're normally driven by pensioners with flat caps and driving gloves on at miss daisy speeds. Either way they both cruise effortlessly, on the m ways but are useless off the line, suspension could be more taught as they lean like the tower of pisa in a corner however they never let go.

[Druid Boy]

I know its all down to personal choice but for me its a big diesel everytime. I love the way you can drive it like a truck, just rumbling around at low revs when you want to or traffic conditions are poor and then light the tyres up when you want to go/hit a national speed limit. As I recall the 2006 diesels outperformed the big petrol engines in bhp & whipped em on torque...but I stand by to be corrected. :bookworm:

[cabcurtains]

I used to work for Honda, so i would go for the Accord 2.2 I-CDTI or if a low mileage user (Sub 15,000 per year) a 2.0 VTEC, a lot of the Sport & EX's have Sat Nav.

[Facchino]

Thanks guys - I prefer the avensis over the accord due to the extra power...found a few around 80k miles on either 57 or 07, hatchback, don't like saloons as hate the lack of a rear wiper..hoping it's happening in April..not long now.

Trust me compared to my 51 plate 406HDi - that started out with a whopping 90bhp and is probably around 70-75 by now! Slow doesn't even cover it.

An avensis T180 will feel like a sportscar on the road and a luxury car inside in comparison.

[Facchino]

Can anyone point me to the in gear performance figures -30-50 in 3rd, 50-70in 4th or 5th etc.

Also I cannot grasp torque of a car - this has more than my bosses Audi TT 3.2V6?!?!

Having been in that car - if this avensis has more pull in it from 2000 rpm it will be an absolute rocket?

I just cannot see it myself but the figures are there in black and white for all to see...obviously the TT has more BHP but the torque is higher in the T180. I am clearly missing something?

[cabcurtains]

Torque is pulling power, an Articulated Lorry can have over 2000 LBS of torque as its required to pull the 44 Tonnes of weight, but it will only have 500BHP, the power is needed for the ultimate top speed so the truck wont have a high top speed as its power to weight is only 12ish BHP per ton.

The Audi will have 250BHP and the Avensis about 175, so the Audi will be quicker, but if you attached a heavy trailer the Avensis would probably pull it easier without having the rev the car as hard.

The 180's look good on paper in standard form but they dont seem to work as well in real life, a 150 is a better bet as it doesnt have the D-Cat system. Most people would find both cars similiar for performance, but the 150 better on fuel. If you read all the threads on the 180's you are advised to think very carefully before buying one.

[Facchino]

Cheers - I will have a read through some threads later...if the 180 is a dopey car, the avensis was only appealing for the supposed performance bonus over the 140 accords and mazdas...I wouldn't go with the 150 avensis but would stick with something else.

What exactly is the issue with this car? Some people here say they're very good but watch out for X,Y and Z. Others like yourself seem to suggest they offer almost nothing over the 150, which I do find hard to believe,but have to bow to superior knowledge. When the time comes I will still drive the other 2 choices and if there is no real noticeable performance difference but 7-8mpg difference I will ditch the T180 idea.

[Heidfirst]

The T180 is a little quicker & has the highest spec. level but is definitely thirstier.

If you are coming from the Peugeot that you mentioned then I suspect that the 150 will be just fine for you (& you can always stick a tuning box on it if your insurance allows).

If you aren't a fan of leather then imo a facelift 2.2 D-4D 150 in TR trim is the best vfm hence why I bought 1 (ex-demo).

However, I've since come to realise that with the issues that all modern turbo-diesels (especially Euro 6 compliant) have & the lower mileage ( <10k) that I'm now doing that in future I'll be better served by a simple (i.e. non-turbo, non-DMF, non-DPF) petrol so when I change cars next the plan is to go back to petrol.

[Facchino]

Cheers Scott.

Thats something to consider...I prefer the T180 half leather interior to the 150, but I am rapidly being put off the car it seems there are a lot of potential issues with it, and it doesn't matter how powerful it is if its broke down and in a garage. Just suprises me as I always thought Toyota to be a real "safe" bet as far as reliability was concerned...

I think if the 180 is no use then its likely to be a mazda or accord as they look better and performance between them and the 150bhp Avensis is all but identical.

I drive around 15k per year, and people talk about a petrol being a more sensible purchase under a certain mileage, but I just cannot grasp how it is?

All the petrols I look at are 25mpg urban, diesels 35mpg urban. So assuming 10mpg extra round town - and price of £1.35 petrol / £1.45 diesel per litre -

I put £50 in both. That £50 gets me

34.48 Litres of diesel > 7.58 Gallons > will take me 265.3 miles

37.03 Litres of petrol > 8.14 Gallons > will take me 203.5 miles

So clearly I am 62 miles better off just comparing urban MPG. This will be amplified given the different MPG and driving conditions.

Diesels are the same price as well in the used market (it seems)

The repairs side of things is the only question mark - but I just cannot see how I save on a petrol, without sacrificing performance. My previous car was a rover 620i, and I reckon I was pushing 19-20 mpg urban, I had to get rid of it as was costing me the earth in fuel.

Thanks for reading.

[Heidfirst]

I prefer the T180 half leather interior to the 150,

the T-Spirit has 1/2 leather but not the 180bhp, D-CAT engine

but I am rapidly being put off the car it seems there are a lot of potential issues with it, and it doesn't matter how powerful it is if its broke down and in a garage. Just suprises me as I always thought Toyota to be a real "safe" bet as far as reliability was concerned...

the only possible extra issue is the headgasket problem (but under 112k Toyota should take care of it). We don't know what % of cars develop it but it's likely small or it would be a far bigger & more widely known issue.

All the other problems of modern turbodiesels exist on the others too & I'm sure that they have their own issues (e.g. Honest John says that the Mazda 2.0 TD has an issue with DPFs killing engines. at least afaik when a Toyota DPF goes it doesn't take the engine with it. & as you say the Mazdas are belt-driven rather than chain & servicing costs are higher).

I drive around 15k per year, and people talk about a petrol being a more sensible purchase under a certain mileage, but I just cannot grasp how it is?

All the petrols I look at are 25mpg urban, diesels 35mpg urban. So assuming 10mpg extra round town - and price of £1.35 petrol / £1.45 diesel per litre -

I put £50 in both. That £50 gets me

34.48 Litres of diesel > 7.58 Gallons > will take me 265.3 miles

37.03 Litres of petrol > 8.14 Gallons > will take me 203.5 miles

So clearly I am 62 miles better off just comparing urban MPG. This will be amplified given the different MPG and driving conditions.

if you look at real world figures the latest 1.8 petrol Avensis gets ~40mpg mixed (a 2.0 petrol Mazda 6 ~38) the 2.2 D-4D gets~ 43mpg so around 7.5% better - but diesel is ~5% dearer.

& the diesel has a DMF, DPF & turbo which are all potentially expensive failure/replacements.

Diesels are the same price as well in the used market (it seems)

usually there is a premium as there is to buy new

The repairs side of things is the only question mark - but I just cannot see how I save on a petrol, without sacrificing performance.

to give the same performance as a similar capacity petrol engine a diesel needs a turbo.

Instantly that's more complication & another potential for an expensive failure/repair [if you are happy with a turbo then you can use a smaller turboed petrol (like Ford's & Vauxhall's new engines)].

& the extra torque of the td means a DMF too - more potential for expense.

if it's Euro 6 then it will have a DPF too.

The higher pressure of common rail diesels seems to mean more injector wear (& hence earlier replacement) than on petrol.

In Winter if you are doing short runs without the engine warming up properly the diesel will take a bigger hit to mpg than petrol (which warms up faster).

A petrol will probably be in a higher class for VED though but as long as you don't buy new the annual difference isn't great.

My previous car was a rover 620i, and I reckon I was pushing 19-20 mpg urban, I had to get rid of it as was costing me the earth in fuel.

i used to run Vauxhall Carlton & Omega 2.0 petrol estates & I got way more than that (around 27mpg urban with a full boot of samples etc.)!

[Mistermena]

Cheers Scott.

Thats something to consider...I prefer the T180 half leather interior to the 150, but I am rapidly being put off the car it seems there are a lot of potential issues with it, and it doesn't matter how powerful it is if its broke down and in a garage. Just suprises me as I always thought Toyota to be a real "safe" bet as far as reliability was concerned...

I think if the 180 is no use then its likely to be a mazda or accord as they look better and performance between them and the 150bhp Avensis is all but identical.

I drive around 15k per year, and people talk about a petrol being a more sensible purchase under a certain mileage, but I just cannot grasp how it is?

All the petrols I look at are 25mpg urban, diesels 35mpg urban. So assuming 10mpg extra round town - and price of £1.35 petrol / £1.45 diesel per litre -

I put £50 in both. That £50 gets me

34.48 Litres of diesel > 7.58 Gallons > will take me 265.3 miles

37.03 Litres of petrol > 8.14 Gallons > will take me 203.5 miles

So clearly I am 62 miles better off just comparing urban MPG. This will be amplified given the different MPG and driving conditions.

Diesels are the same price as well in the used market (it seems)

The repairs side of things is the only question mark - but I just cannot see how I save on a petrol, without sacrificing performance. My previous car was a rover 620i, and I reckon I was pushing 19-20 mpg urban, I had to get rid of it as was costing me the earth in fuel.

Thanks for reading.

Okay... After reading the responces on this thread I think that you have to bear some points in mind! The problems is not solely with the T-180! but potentially with ALL the oil burner that Toyota produce, this includes the 2.0ltr and the 2.2ltr regarding the HG issues and the EGR valve. If you look at the case of Honda's 2.2 diesels I've read (On this forum) that they are a real "Oil burner" in every sence of the word! as there was a report of one running out of oil and seizing the engine dispite having a main dealer service some 2,000 miles previously!.

There are always going to be negative and positive views on certain model range! so you have to weigh up a "Risk" in a car! there are many very happy T-180 owners as well as others that are unhappy! same with some 2.2 and 2.0ltr owners. Yes there can be problems with the D-CAT system (I've never had one) and some who have no idea what it is or what it does! but it works.

If you want a top of the range car with all the toys and power! then buy a T-180! if not then go for the 150bhp model! But remember, No car is without fault! and you could end up with problems with either a petrol or diesel model! it takes alot of leg work to finf the right one! I'm not trying to sing the praises of the T-180! I'm just trying to give you a fair point of view, not in favor of in either way to petrol or oil burner.

Its a case of you pays your money and takes your choice...

[Facchino]

Genuine thanks to all the comments you guys have made - you've certainly opened my eyes up to things I would never have known, and not just with the toyota.

I will have a month to come to a decision between my 3 shortlisted vehicles and hopefully get to drive them all as well...

I suspect the current preference is

1. T180 (head gasket issue permitting)

2. accord 2.2 CDti (a very close call, if only there was a hatchback as don't really want to get another estate but dislike saloons as no rear wiper)

3. Mazda 6

Thanks again

F