Failed Block Test

[Hoovie]

I do recall that one version of RAV4 (4.2 I think?), which the book says you have to remove the engine to work on the gearbox (common one due to bad 5th gear) - so that is what the dealers do, but in reality, you can do it more easily in some other way (I am not a mechanic and don't really understand that stuff!), so a local garage may have different ways I guess

Not unusual to get bits replaced as a precaution when access happens to be there though (the Punto went in for a cambelt change after 5 years and general wisdom on Fiat forums was replace water pump as it is accessible just in case - and as it happens, the water pump had started to leak, so I personally am swayed by these kind of theories).

And hopefully your engine WILL do a Spencer Davis (Keep on Running :) )

[CharlieFarlie]

The labour cost is high because I believe both the transfer box and the gearbox have to come out.. Its a far far more complex job than say for example a Ford Focus..

You can of course reduce this by using a non Toyota independent garage..

While I appreciate Hoovies numbers there is no given life span for a clutch....

One driver may get that 150,000 miles if He /She is careful and has good technique

Another could easily ruin a clutch in no time at all if they slip the clutch on take off or ride the pedal.

It helps if You have had the car from new or perhaps know the previous owner. If not it guess work.

The diaphragm or pressure plate spring can harden with time. This will mean more pressure is needed on the pedal. So its not just a case of how worn the components are or measure up with a vernier..

My old clutch showed little signs of wear but the gear change and feel of the pedal now is vastly improved. That combined with the peace of mind meant it was a very good investment indeed.

One last consideration is if You have or intend to have a Power upgrade or chip fitted as the greater torque low down will load the clutch a wee bit...

[Big Kev]

My car is supposed to have an engine built with the modifications that offset the well documented problem(s). As reported by Charlie and others the failure seems common(er) at 40k plus miles. Should mine go at that sort of mileage, I would honestly not think twice about fitting a new clutch at that stage...a no brainer, and not because I also require an improved gearchange....got used to mine and not a problem.

I suppose you could liken this situation to an extended warranty.....you are gambling a wee bit cash against there being a problem....same as Fully Comp insurance too....eh?

Ah would get a clutch fitted also too forbye, matey.

Big Kev

[Doosan]

Hi all,

Had a phone call from my dealer this afternoon and told me after doing all the required tests that it is the head gasket that has gone and all the rest is fine,something about carbon deposits.

I am having the clutch done as they said the plate was well scored and would recommend that it was done while the engine is out.The price for this is £330 this includes 10% off for being in the Toyota Club.

Doosan

[CharlieFarlie]

Hi all,

Had a phone call from my dealer this afternoon and told me after doing all the required tests that it is the head gasket that has gone and all the rest is fine,something about carbon deposits.

I am having the clutch done as they said the plate was well scored and would recommend that it was done while the engine is out.The price for this is £330 this includes 10% off for being in the Toyota Club.

Doosan

Confused !! Are they replacing the engine as I said they would ?

The confusion is because of the comment about head gasket ?? Does Your dealer talk in another language ??

Dave. You must be getting fed up with that dealers communication skills ?

[Doosan]

Hi all,

Had a phone call from my dealer this afternoon and told me after doing all the required tests that it is the head gasket that has gone and all the rest is fine,something about carbon deposits.

I am having the clutch done as they said the plate was well scored and would recommend that it was done while the engine is out.The price for this is £330 this includes 10% off for being in the Toyota Club.

Doosan

Confused !! Are they replacing the engine as I said they would ?

The confusion is because of the comment about head gasket ?? Does Your dealer talk in another language ??

Dave. You must be getting fed up with that dealers communication skills ?

Charlie,

They are not replacing the engine as their tests don't show any carbon deposits on the critical components.

It is only a head gasket that is being done & the clutch.

I must say I'm a bit miffed.

Dave

[Big Kev]

Hi all,

Had a phone call from my dealer this afternoon and told me after doing all the required tests that it is the head gasket that has gone and all the rest is fine,something about carbon deposits.

I am having the clutch done as they said the plate was well scored and would recommend that it was done while the engine is out.The price for this is £330 this includes 10% off for being in the Toyota Club.

Doosan

Confused !! Are they replacing the engine as I said they would ?

The confusion is because of the comment about head gasket ?? Does Your dealer talk in another language ??

Dave. You must be getting fed up with that dealers communication skills ?

Charlie,

They are not replacing the engine as their tests don't show any carbon deposits on the critical components.

It is only a head gasket that is being done & the clutch.

I must say I'm a bit miffed.

Dave

Sorry Dave....I detect a rodent here.....what are these "components on which they cannot detect carbon?" I presume they mean they have looked at the EGR and the DPF, BUT HOW THE FLAKE CAN THEY SEE INSIDE YOUR ENGINE and make this observation?

I am desperate not to have the same paranoia about dealers as other folk hereon have nurtured ad nauseum, but as Charlie is implying with his recent experience(s).....WTF is going on at this dealer....? If the head gasket is gone, should he not do the "whole job" ? I stand to be corrected, but would even proffer this.....are the dealers in line for Brownie Toyota Points by doing cheaper fixes, in preparation for Charlie's much heralded ending of the current "goodwill" engine exchanges....?

Big Kev

[CharlieFarlie]

Hi all,

Had a phone call from my dealer this afternoon and told me after doing all the required tests that it is the head gasket that has gone and all the rest is fine,something about carbon deposits.

I am having the clutch done as they said the plate was well scored and would recommend that it was done while the engine is out.The price for this is £330 this includes 10% off for being in the Toyota Club.

Doosan

Confused !! Are they replacing the engine as I said they would ?

The confusion is because of the comment about head gasket ?? Does Your dealer talk in another language ??

Dave. You must be getting fed up with that dealers communication skills ?

Charlie,

They are not replacing the engine as their tests don't show any carbon deposits on the critical components.

It is only a head gasket that is being done & the clutch.

I must say I'm a bit miffed.

Dave

Aw Mate I'm just speechless !! In the event of a head gasket failure OR carbon build up the current policy is to replace the engine..

I am genuinely surprised to say the very least..

I have to say that I believe the Dealer has failed to recognise the problem. They have further failed to follow the policy that is in force at this time...

Simply removing the head is Against the current policy.. Did You present all the information I gave You ??

I would be on to Toyota ASAP..... Something has gone badly wrong here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jedi134]

I thought that if x,y and z are in tolerance, then no new engine, just new head gasket,?

[CharlieFarlie]

Dave one other thing..

After Our conversation on the phone I spoke to a high up Person at Toyota.

I explained the situation with Your car..

He said Your Dealer would be replacing the engine if any of the contributory factors were detected.

Head gasket failure..

Excessive oil consumption..

Codes being thrown up.

Coolant being thrown out of the header tank.

And any of the other symptoms.. Or a combination of any of the above..

THE DEALER SHOULD NOT TAKE THE ENGINE APART AS THIS IS STRICTLY AGAINST TOYOTA'S POLICY AS SET OUT IN THE TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETINS....................

Sorry Pal You are the victim of a Dealer who has cocked up.....

Why has the carbon built up ? And why have the Dealers ignored the above ??

My situation is !Removed! awful .... Yours is IMHO far worse,,,

[CharlieFarlie]

I thought that if x,y and z are in tolerance, then no new engine, just new head gasket,?

Find and read the TSBs Mate ? I thought You were good at that ?

[jedi134]

Maybe Doosans dealers has read the TSB I have,? I will have to study again :D

Errr where's that link again

Oooo I'm getting excited again

[CharlieFarlie]

Kev talking of Rodent smelling..... Why is the engine being taken out if its just a head gasket ? ?

Is it necessary to do this ? If it was there would still be a labour charge to remove the gearbox and replace the clutch ??

Don I hope You pick up on this one ?? You and I have helped many through the process of engine replacement so maybe You can enlighten Us ??

[Big Kev]

Kev talking of Rodent smelling..... Why is the engine being taken out if its just a head gasket ? ?

Is it necessary to do this ? If it was there would still be a labour charge to remove the gearbox and replace the clutch ??

Don I hope You pick up on this one ?? You and I have helped many through the process of engine replacement so maybe You can enlighten Us ??

....and that's quite a price differential between your clutch and Doosan's, Charlie.

Obviously there should be no requirement to remove the engine to do a head gasket, but it is a lot easier to do the clutch with it out.....large smelly rodent.

Big Kev

[CharlieFarlie]

If I had not spoken to the OP I would say there is a wind up going on here ?????

Or perhaps there is ???????????

[anchorman]

Bedroom is being decorated and all the displaced junk is stopping me reaching the heffing keyboard.

Don't like it. Will comment better tomorrow (maybe).

[CharlieFarlie]

I am now convinced this is a wind up........

[tatteam]

Kev talking of Rodent smelling..... Why is the engine being taken out if its just a head gasket ? ?

Is it necessary to do this ? If it was there would still be a labour charge to remove the gearbox and replace the clutch ??

Don I hope You pick up on this one ?? You and I have helped many through the process of engine replacement so maybe You can enlighten Us ??

According to my local dealer, head gasket can be changed with engine in place BUT it's not recomanded to dismantle manifold, turbo and other ancillary parts with engine in place, thus its safer to work with engine out.

Still as you say Charlie, in that case a complete (or short block at least), should be replaced not just head gasket.

[CharlieFarlie]

Kev talking of Rodent smelling..... Why is the engine being taken out if its just a head gasket ? ?

Is it necessary to do this ? If it was there would still be a labour charge to remove the gearbox and replace the clutch ??

Don I hope You pick up on this one ?? You and I have helped many through the process of engine replacement so maybe You can enlighten Us ??

According to my local dealer, head gasket can be changed with engine in place BUT it's not recomanded to dismantle manifold, turbo and other ancillary parts with engine in place, thus its safer to work with engine out.

Still as you say Charlie, in that case a complete (or short block at least), should be replaced not just head gasket.

I nor My Dealer have EVER heard of an engine being stripped since the change from the rebuild to replacement policy.. It just should not happen..

I would imagine removing the head in situ would be a fairly difficult process. But to remove the whole engine and the part the gearbox from the block ?? And then still have the head to do ????

I spoke at length with the OP about this because His dealer was making comments like "Dont believe everything You read on the internet" My advice was to get the Dealer to read the TSBs......

Dave seems and very likely is a nice and very honest bloke. I appreciate not everyone has My straightforward and forthright way of dealing with a Dealer... But if the questions were not asked and Toyota Customer care contacted as I advised then things can and seem to have gone wrong....

I hope Dave does not mind Me mentioning this but when He bought the car He purchased the Toyota warranty with it... Could it be that the Dealer can make a heap more money by claiming on that warranty rather than the Toyota Policy warranty that at this time is still in place ???

They are in just doing the head gasket treating the symptoms NOT the disease or core problem.....

Doing this may just get the car going enough to get it past the Policy warranty... Then if problems occur He will find himself in the same boat as Tim (Mistermena)...

Dave feel free to print this off and take it to You Dealer ...........................

[anchorman]

No really Charlie, the bedroom has been decorated. ^_^

I wouldn't be at all happy with this situation and would speak to an alternative dealer if they didn't revise this course of action.

[CharlieFarlie]

No really Charlie, the bedroom has been decorated. ^_^

I wouldn't be at all happy with this situation and would speak to an alternative dealer if they didn't revise this course of action.

That cant happen now surely ? The engine is out so it can be no longer a case of using the 7 year warranty.. If the engine is still complete there is at least a chance but the comments about where the carbon build up suggests the head at least is off..

As Totota demand the engine is sent back to Japan WHOLE. then the horse has bolted.. The Dealers have only ten days to get the old units shipped or they loose a deposit of around £1300.... There is no way Toyota will accept an incomplete engine back...

I would be asking why the correct procedure has NOT been followed. I would further be demanding that procedure must be followed and any losses incurred would be picked up by the Dealer.. After all now the engine will be suspect as the problem will have been papered over instead of being cured...

[jedi134]

Ar'nt dealerships brilliant!!!

They could always stick it all back together, could they not

[anchorman]

I cannot imagine what has possesed them to strip it. Presumably they would take advice from TGB about the warranty???

[CharlieFarlie]

Don as above.. The OP purchased an expensive warranty when He bought the car. So presumably they The dealer that is have decided to ignore the policy warranty and do a sub standard repair instead.. Perhaps they can make more money than simply following the Correct procedure ?? It really does beggar belief !

I would be holding the Dealer soley and totally responsible for putting this ridiculous situation right...

They have failed to communicate with Dave from day 1!!! This was plain and clear not only from His posts on this thread but when We talked on the phone... They commented " Dont believe everything You read on the internet ) Oh really .........

[Doosan]

Hi all,

Picked my car up today.Had a long chat to the service guy about the TSB and he said that they have done all the checks

that are required and could not find any thing wrong except the head gasket.The car does not use excessive oil or diesel.

The head gasket was done under the Toyota warranty and not on my paid for warranty.He did say that it was a good idea

to have the clutch done as the plate was quite badly scored. This came to £306.29 including the clutch release brg.

So I will see how it all goes when I start towing the caravan,which will be just over a weeks time going to Chatsworth House in

Derbyshire.

Thank you all for your input and to you Charlie for your advice.

Dave