What Would You Do?

[SteveStod]

Recently retired, I was looking to buy a long term motor capable of pulling a caravan off a wet muddy field occasionally, with good levels of equipment and with a good reputation for reliability. Started to look at Rav4’s I found a one owner, full service history 2006 D4D XT4, used as a second car, 22500 miles, lightly driven and well looked after. Bought it, loved it, discovered this forum and did the check strap, cleaned the ERG, (moderately sooted), following the excellent instructions on the forum.

Then started to read about the problems with some of the 2AD engines…..

The car is now at 28000 and needed a full service. I got this done at the local Toyota Main dealer, as I wanted them to give it a clean bill of health, in case of problems further down the line.

At the dealers I asked if they checked for fault codes during the service, they said No and was asked if I’d had any problems. They seemed surprised I had any concerns at all….

So service complete, I have a 2006 2AD 28k miles of which I have no complaints, it looks and drives like new car……..but….in 11 months time it will be out of the extended warranty, and will, I estimate have done maybe 42K……right at the mileage where some of problems start to come to light.

Should I keep the car (I would like to) or sell it now.

What would you do?

[DjRav]

Well I could tell you what Charlie will say!

It's a tricky one, I'm in a similar position (57plate 45k) but with a little longer to decide than you. If I could afford it I would px mine for an 09 plate but then there could be other compromises, like can I have a sunroof?

However I can't afford to change, so decision made!

Dave

[three5]

Hi Steve - and welcome to to the forum. I think it is important to remember that not all RAVs have this problem. This is not a particularly useful statement so lets try and get some sort of indication about your particular motor. So, two questions to start with: first - how many MPG do you get? You need to use the "brim-to-brim" method to determine this ( fill the car up till the pump cuts out, record the mileage then drive it as you do normally till the tank is well down, fill it again till the pump cuts out and then calculate how many mpg you are really getting ) as the dashboard display can be a long way off. You say you are recently retired ( me too! - great ain't it? ) so maybe you do a lot of shorter journeys now(?) - if so you cannot really expect very good fuel consumption as the engine takes a lot of warming up before it reaches its peak efficiency. Anyway, if you can tell us what MPG you are getting and what sort of driving you are doing it will provide an indication. The second question is how much oil does it use? This again needs measuring fairly carefully - car on a horizontal surface when you check the oil level and careful addition of oil so that you don't overfill - oh! and use the right oil - there are a few threads on here dealing with oil types which are worth reading.

I'm repeating here something that I have said previously so everyone else plrease forgive me: I bought two identical xt5's at the end of March 2008, one for me and one for my brother. My daughter inherited his when he was going to trade it in so they have both been in the family since new. Mine had a new engine under the Toyota warranty scheme ( 31,000 miles ) in February because it used oil and the fuel consumption had dropped considerably, my daughters uses next to no oil between services and regularly returns high 40's to the gallon after 47,000 miles! I can't explain why the two should be so different and have come to accept that most of the RAV 4.3 diesels are fine. If I had your vehicle and it used little or no oil and returned a decent MPG, I would sleep easy.

I've run 4WDs since the early '70's and the RAV is without doubt the nicest all round drive of any of them. I won't be swopping it any time soon, in fact I can see me keeping it 10 or 15 years. I have a sneaking suspicion that working the engine a bit harder by towing your caravan ( - and warming it up properly ) will do nothing but good, certainly in terms of keeping the engine clean. Maybe consider changing the oil between services as well? HTH

[CharlieFarlie]

Well I could tell you what Charlie will say!

It's a tricky one, I'm in a similar position (57plate 45k) but with a little longer to decide than you. If I could afford it I would px mine for an 09 plate but then there could be other compromises, like can I have a sunroof?

However I can't afford to change, so decision made!

Dave

Its a question of likely hood surely ??

If You can live with the knowledge that there is a chance the car will develop a fault then just carry on and ignore anything You read.......

If not then You have to consider Your options....

Whilst I fully accept the view that all cars are not liable to issues arising We on this small forum had three new cases of this engine issue just last week..

It really is a game of chance !!! How lucky do You feel ??

It really is a tough call and one hard to advise on .. If I/We were to say don't worry Mate it will be fine and in say 12 or 13 months it starts burning oil or spitting out coolant then Our advise was very bad indeed...

On the other hand if I/We say its a liability get rid of ASAP and You meet the new owner in 5 years time and He/She is gushing over how good the car is then Our advise was very bad indeed.....

I an genuinely trying not to take a negative stance on this issue.

My words on here have been simply to make owners old and prospective aware of what is going on so they can make informed decisions.. From there on in its up to them......

I have had a complete brand new unit fitted to My car not a re manufactured one. Yet still I cannot bring Myself to trust it.........

[SteveStod]

Chris, my Rav has used hardly any oil in my six months of ownership, and coolant level stays normal, but fuel consumption has been a disappointing 34mph rising to 37 when I changed to BP ultimate, mainly from the odd long run but with a fair number of shorter trips thrown in (brim to brim method).

So I’m getting an OK on the oil and coolant and…not brilliant on fuel consumption (driven quite steadily most of the time), should I still sleep easy?

It seems a unique situation where nobody, not even the manufacturer, can state what has caused the problem. Usually a recurring problem is identified as a faulty component, batch of engines, or a common design fault, but your experience contradicts that.

Charlie’s balanced views are spot on, especially the final line about being able to trust in the vehicle. I suppose that’s why Toyota have been so good at dealing with it so far, they have produced millions of reliable engines and they don’t want to lose the reputation they have built up.

I’m sure it won’t happen, but in my opinion they should state that they would look favourably on any 2AD engine that suffers from the “known problems” irrespective of age, on the grounds that the buyers of the vehicle have bought into problems not of their making.

It would good to hear from any owners who hav really racked up the miles on a 2AD engine.

[Mistermena]

I think I'd be inclined to get rid! Unless you buy (And only this cover) an extended Toyota warranty! If Mr T pulls the rug on the 112k/ 7 year good will warranty you could have a car that may suffer from the HG failure or any of the other issues.

Like Charlie says!.... How lucky do you feel? Its a waiting game with the 2AD power unit! :help2: :(

[jedi134]

How lucky do you feel? :help2: :(

[DominicPriestley]

I'd keep it.

It's done you great service up to now. It's been well looked after and looks like new. It's depreciation curve will have levelled out and will more than likely go on to do 200k without thinking about it. Yes there are lots of people on the forum who have/had issues, but there must be 1000's of non forum members with healthy 2AD Rav's.

Worst case if it does happen? Trade it in at a dealer for a new Rav.

[Hoovie]

I'd keep it.

It's done you great service up to now. It's been well looked after and looks like new. It's depreciation curve will have levelled out and will more than likely go on to do 200k without thinking about it. Yes there are lots of people on the forum who have/had issues, but there must be 1000's of non forum members with healthy 2AD Rav's.

Worst case if it does happen? Trade it in at a dealer for a new Rav.

Wise words there from Dominic

As I understand it, it is not as if an 2AD engine with "the problem" actually suddenly disintegrates, but needs more frequent oil top ups then it really should, so should this issue surface, the situation is very manageable and you can make a decision then.

[redlew]

You can now extend the warranty up beyond seven years -and the cost of extended warranty will be less than the loss on trade in /immediate depreciation on a newer car.

[CharlieFarlie]

I am not going to offer an opinion or advice either way.

Instead I choose to go with the likelihood of a problem and the facts as both I see them and can prove.... If We are not careful this will turn once again into an I have one and its fine so everyone else is talking rubbish.. Please lest not go there ?

The facts as I see them is that there is an indisputable problem ongoing with these engines. The figures are just horrific. On the Forum last week We had three more Members who have the same repetitive issues and are now in the process of either tests being done or engine replacement......

The question here though is what would I/We do ?? Well there are those of Us Myself included that own one of these cars. So of course We should defend them to the hilt. But is that really a fair and honest way to base Our advice ?

Dominic says trade it in for a new one if it goes wrong .... Well that's one way and if I'm honest perhaps that is what I would do ... Good point that !!

But there is a question and that is does the OP or any owner for that matter have the money to take such a radical action ? Or perhaps take on the liability of finance ? Plus and this for Me is a big consideration.. What about the poor bugger who ends up with the traded in car ???

What I will say is that anyone considering buying a car affected with say 12 months or so should take in all the numbers and consider carefully whether they can afford the bill for a replacement engine before parting with their cash..

To those who find themselves with a car like quite a few of Us the OP included the consideration should surely be can We afford to get out of the car if things don't go well and can We live with the liability....

[CharlieFarlie]

I am not going to offer an opinion or advice either way.

Instead I choose to go with the likelihood of a problem and the facts as both I see them and can prove.... If We are not careful this will turn once again into an I have one and its fine so everyone else is talking rubbish.. Please lest not go there ?

The facts as I see them is that there is an indisputable problem ongoing with these engines. The figures are just horrific. On the Forum last week We had three more Members who have the same repetitive issues and are now in the process of either tests being done or engine replacement......

The question here though is what would I/We do ?? Well there are those of Us Myself included that own one of these cars. So of course We should defend them to the hilt. But is that really a fair and honest way to base Our advice ?

Dominic says trade it in for a new one if it goes wrong .... Well that's one way and if I'm honest perhaps that is what I would do ... Good point that !!

But there is a question and that is does the OP or any owner for that matter have the money to take such a radical action ? Or perhaps take on the liability of finance ? Plus and this for Me is a big consideration.. What about the poor bugger who ends up with the traded in car ???

What I will say is that anyone considering buying a car affected with say 12 months or so should take in all the numbers and consider carefully whether they can afford the bill for a replacement engine before parting with their cash..

To those who find themselves with a car like quite a few of Us the OP included the consideration should surely be can We afford to get out of the car if things don't go well and can We live with the liability

I'd keep it.

It's done you great service up to now. It's been well looked after and looks like new. It's depreciation curve will have levelled out and will more than likely go on to do 200k without thinking about it. Yes there are lots of people on the forum who have/had issues, but there must be 1000's of non forum members with healthy 2AD Rav's.

Worst case if it does happen? Trade it in at a dealer for a new Rav.

Wise words there from Dominic

As I understand it, it is not as if an 2AD engine with "the problem" actually suddenly disintegrates, but needs more frequent oil top ups then it really should, so should this issue surface, the situation is very manageable and you can make a decision then.

....

David its not always like that... Sometimes some owners don't have oil burning issues . Instead they as the Member who posted in the week and I spoke to at length have had coolant loss issue which are the result of serious problems like head gasket failure..

Tim has had the lights coming on without warning and now has serious oil consumption issues..

Not all engines have the common decency to hand in their notice.....

Extended warranties are fine and good but cost quite a lot of money.. In My case more than the annual insurance bill.

Also as Kingo pointed out.. Warranties will not cover oil burning.. It may well cover the resulting damage that is likely to occur as a result of said oil burning but not the burning its self.........

Once again it all falls down to cost and what each individual person fells He/She can afford and is comfortable paying ..

[DominicPriestley]

If the OP is considering a change of car now, then the trade in option should still be the case in 12 months if a problem arises. It doesn't have to be brand new, a 59 plate like mine will get the OP out of the problem band, if indeed he wants to stick with the brand.

As Charlie says, hopefully this thread won't go the way of others, but I'm quite happy to offer my opinion, and as before.... Keep it, keep a regular eye on oil consumption. If it increases dramatically then make a call on trading in then. If you get to 50k without issue, enjoy the Rav until it falls apart around the engine.

[jedi134]

What about the poor bugger who ends up with the traded in car ???

They will end up on here and the saga continues...

[Gods_gift]

Charlie have you found out yet specifically if it's a Headgasket deteriation or piston ring issues that lead to oil usage/coolant loss?

Either of those could lead to overheating and head warping which would explain partial engine replacements. Which 3/4 of the engine are they replacing?

PS mines now on 104,000 miles 56 plate 2.2 diesel no issues to report and self serviced once a year.

[CharlieFarlie]

Charlie have you found out yet specifically if it's a Headgasket deteriation or piston ring issues that lead to oil usage/coolant loss?

Either of those could lead to overheating and head warping which would explain partial engine replacements. Which 3/4 of the engine are they replacing?

PS mines now on 104,000 miles 56 plate 2.2 diesel no issues to report and self serviced once a year.

Mate I honestly believe that Toyota don't actually know what is going on with these engines.. Modified pistons a rings was the first assumption based on that was what they were replacing in house at the Dealerships....

I wish I knew the answers as to what exactly the problem is.. Many things have been blamed.. The fuel was one of them or I should say the alleged poor quality fuel here in the UK..

This was torn apart here on the forum but once again no definite answer could be confirmed or denied...

Truth is I haven a clue.......

[Gods_gift]

Does anyone one in the know know?

Be interesting to find an exact list of bits they replace that would hint at the cause.

If your engine over heats initially through loss of water or oil (caused by head gasket or oil control ring failure) then the head can warp and if the head isn't checked or replaced by the mechanic and he just replaces the head gasket or rings you'll get another failure in a few thousand miles if the head is warped.

This used to happen on BMW E30 325i's a lot. If they had overheated. Some times the heads would even crack. The only cure for a warped head is a replacement head or re skimming plus a thicker head gasket.

If toyota are replacing the block then this could be down to cylinder liner failure (BMW old 5 series nikasil issue) which can be caused by poor fuel mix, something broken from the head being demolished in a cylinder (ie causing scoring which leads to high oil burn) or a worn bottom end shells meaning a piston isnt running true in the cylinder munching piston/oil control ring and then burning more oil.

At the end of the day an engine is mechanical. If we can find out what they replace then that will point to the problem.

[anchorman]

Not this old cookie again. All the items that are replaced are in the bulletin that has been posted many times.

SteveStod.

If you are worried, pm me.

[CharlieFarlie]

Not this old cookie again. All the items that are replaced are in the bulletin that has been posted many times.

SteveStod.

If you are worried, pm me.

I think Don it may be a while before this old cookie goes away ?? I'm not sure what You are saying ?.. OP asks a question We give advice or an opinion surely that is why He asked ?

I think We understand what is being replaced.. I think GG just asked why ??? Or am I missing something ?

Why the PM ? Do You know something We dont ???

[jedi134]

Not this old cookie again. All the items that are replaced are in the bulletin that has been posted many times.

SteveStod.

If you are worried, pm me.

Gods gift does his own servicing, he knows what's going into his engine, and what's been done. 100k and still going strong :D

Who knows what the dealerships do come service time

It's Seems crazy to me that Toyota still does not know what's causing this problem.......

[CharlieFarlie]

Not this old cookie again. All the items that are replaced are in the bulletin that has been posted many times.

SteveStod.

If you are worried, pm me.

Gods gift does his own servicing, he knows what's going into his engine, and what's been done. 100k and still going strong :D

Who knows what the dealerships do come service time

It's Seems crazy to me that Toyota still does not know what's causing this problem.......

lets not turn this into another engine thread Mate.. The OP asked what would We do which means its hard to do... MMmmmm

Fair Dos though to GG for doing His own servicing.. Thats what I did with engine number 1 and look where it got Me

SORRY MUST NOT TALK ABOUT ENGINES MUST NOT TALK ABOUT ENGINES .............

[jedi134]

But engine talk is exciting, there wasn't much else going on