Trade In Musings

[timberwolf]

The length of the warranty depends on the

circumstances. It has some bearing on the

price, but not as much as you are making

out. Otherwise why did anyone buy the early Gen 3?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Otherwise why did anyone buy the early Gen 3?

Because having had it rammed down our throats for the previous 6 years that the gen2 had an 8 years, 100,000 mile warranty we wrongly assumed that it would be the same on the gen3. With hind sight it could be said that we should have all double checked at the time, but we all hear about the Toyota 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty at the moment - imagine if you pop down and buy a Toyota car next Bank Holiday and find they'd sneakily changed it. You don't mind as much when Tesco do that with the price of beans, but it's a different matter on a car.

I do wonder if half the dealers or at least half the salesmen weren't aware the warranty had been reduced for the gen3? I know their service department weren't aware of gen3's as in the early days they insisted on using 5w30 oil and using the gen2 service sheet.

It was also an exclusively Toyota UK idea. The larger hybrid warranty still applies in Europe (as far as I know) and definitely longer in America, who in their version of the Prius+ (the new 7 seat Prius) called the Prius V, they don't have a Li-Ion Battery like we get, but have stuck with the older, more reliable technology NiMh. I wonder why?

[johalareewi]

Over on the Toyota Uk site, they show the differences between the hybrid warranties for the gen2, early gen3, and later gen3 + auris. There is a massive difference and it sure looks like early gen3 buyers have been left holding a lemon should they want to trade in. :(

http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=AfterSalesWarranty

On the other hand, if the rest of the world has decent warranties for early gen3s, Toyota must have been sure that the gen3 would last. So even though the UK had a "warranty lite" package, UK gen3s should have been built the same so should last the same - warranty or not.

This doesn't help second hand prices of early gen3s but is some consolation if you have an early gen3 and plan to keep it for a few years. Although Mr GC has had problems with his which is a bit worrying for me (same model and about the same time of year) but his usage was fairly intense. I am hoping my steering column lasts a lot longer than his.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

It's not just early gen3s that'll suffer. Once the price for second hand gen3's has been lowered it'll stay low even for the newer versions. It'll also plant that negative seed in peoples heads that hybrids might not be that good after all - right or wrongly.

[Parts-King]

I don't subscribe to the weasel warranty theory on prices. I think there are very many reasons why prices have fallen, such as the Pruis has been around a long time now, there are very many models available in the market place, and the hybrid hype has fallen away now that others are coming into the market

I have no idea why the types of Battery / types of warranty vary throughout the world, Toyota lost the plot IMHO when they introduced the Gen 3, why that happened I have no idea, it is something that Toyota would have to answer

With the new Hybrid models coming along this year, Toyota will once again ramp up their advertising on Hybrid and I think you will see a re-generation (get it?) in Hybrid prices

Kingo

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I have no idea why the types of battery / types of warranty vary throughout the world, Toyota lost the plot IMHO when they introduced the Gen 3, why that happened I have no idea, it is something that Toyota would have to answer

When you say lost the plot do you mean with regard to lowering the warranty or just by reducing the quality or by cutting corners etc?

I did judge the gen3 on Toyotas past record and the reliability of the gen2 - I might have made a wrong assumption there but the gf is more than happy with the IQ she has. The dealers are great too.

So long as Toyota and importantly Toyota UK HQ have learnt from the mistakes but taking customers for granted in some regards might well bite them on the ****. Once ANY doubt about hybrids gets out there it could cost them in sales - which are only 1% at the moment. It's also the reports from Greece (on the Priuschat forum) where the taxi drivers there have been suffering issues with the gen3 to the point that they avoid them but buy gen2's instead. That says something about the long term reliability. What they and I experience in 2 or 3 years is what the average customer will experience in 5 or 6 years.

[Parts-King]

What I mean is that Toyota could and should have provided at least a Battery warranty equivelent to a Gen 2, why it was lowered, I have no idea why

From a dealer point of view, Toyota's have never been so reliable, the level of warranty claims we have are very low, and as for Hybid issuses, they are very few and far between

Kingo

[kithmo]

From a dealer point of view, Toyota's have never been so reliable, the level of warranty claims we have are very low, and as for Hybid issuses, they are very few and far between

Kingo

That's how I looked at it when I bought mine.

The 5 year warranty was on offer, April 2010 as an option, or 3 years warranty and 3 years free servicing instead.

Being a low mileage user, only 6k a year, I opted for the latter, relying on Toyota's reputation for reliability.

I don't think 2009/10 Prius are going to start falling apart at any time soon, maybe GC got a lemon.

It would be interesting to hear from any other Prius owners who have had reliability problems with theirs. They seem to be far and few between, especially when you think about the fact that Forums do tend to attract people who are looking for solutions to problems more than people who want to tell everybody their car is ok. there doesn't seem to be many on here. Maybe someone could put up a poll.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Being a low mileage user, only 6k a year, I opted for the latter, relying on Toyota's reputation for reliability.

I don't think 2009/10 Prius are going to start falling apart at any time soon, maybe GC got a lemon.

I wouldn't say a lemon. You won't have done 18,000 miles yet. I did 30,000 in the first year. Any problems will show in my car before yours. A 60,000 miles warranty or 5 years will be fine for you. Many people do many more miles. If you need some bedtime reading try the following link from the US forum about failing HV batteries on the gen3.

http://priuschat.com...xis-i-know.html

(126000km is only 78,000 miles)

[kithmo]

I've only covered nearly 12k miles in almost 2 years so It'll take me 10-12 years to cover 78K miles. After reading that link I'll probably check/clean the fan out every 5 or 6 years.

To be fair though the link only mentions a couple of instances of a clogged fan and one of them was on a Gen 2.

I've yet to see any statistics on failure rates for the Gen 3 that convince me that it's not a totally reliable motor.

GC, I understand your frustration with the problems you've had and I do really sympathise with you, but I still say the Gen 3 is reliable.

IMO the 3 year warranty is not an issue for anyone who is going to keep their car for a while. It may or may not affect resale values but anyone who's worried about depreciation should buy nearly new instead of new.

[don21]

This has been a great thread.

Thanks to GC for his wonderful input giving us his indepth knowledge of the Prius.

I get the impression the GC is well P****d off with his trade in price and this seems to have affected his love for the Prius.

On the other hand lots of us have experienced Toyotas seeming fall from grace as a supplier of unbreakable cars.

Time will surely tell on the Gen3 and if issues persist and Toyota fail to sort them then sales will nosedive.

As it is lots of people are scared stiff of the technology. You only have to look at What cars review to see one of the contributors commenting about the Scary Technology.

At the moment I am very happy with my Gen2 T spirit and fully intend to run it for three years or so.

I was planning on then getting a similar 4 year old 70k gen3 tspirit for mega cheap money but will now monitor reliability first.

Being in the trade and fixing cars all day for a living I will issue one massive warning to all of you.

Never ever think for one second of buying any of these French hybrids that are coming along or heaven forbid these new Renault electric cars.

You think you have complaints about Toyotas?

Think again.

I have a standard instruction to my family and friends.

Buy that junk and take it elsewhere to get fixed.

You have been warned.

[Opifex]

I’m puzzled by the low exchange values for 2009/early 2010 GenIII because this doesn’t seem to be reflected in the retail prices that dealers are asking. I’ve just scanned the Toyota website and found that around the £16,000 mark there is a mix of long and short warranty cars with otherwise similar specs and mileages. Is this just a case of the dealers finding an opportunity to increase their margins?

I'm not sure where you're looking? I've just done a national search on Autotrader for the 1.8 litre Prius in the UK and the first page is in the £9,995 to £12,995 range via non Toyota dealers. I guess if a dealer is selling a car at £9,995 then they'll have bought it for £7,500.

The £16,000 was from a search for Prius T-Spirits on the Toyota website within 50 miles of Westminster and sorted into price order. The cheapest is priced at £11,995 for a March 2010 model with 76k miles. The next one is a Jan 10 model for £13,495 with 53k. Add another £500 to the price and you find an Aug 09 car with 46k. On the basis of these three the price seems much more dependant on mileage than age. As you carry on up the price scale the curve smoothes out until the first car with the 5yr warranty appears at £15,780 with 34k on the clock. In the next 7 cars there is only one 5yr warranty version, and others are all average sort of mileages, not spectacularly low-mileage examples. The highest priced 12month warranty version is in Twickenham for £16,998 with 19k miles.

From these figures there is no sign of a sudden jump in prices of cars after May 2010, so back to my original question of why is there a jump in part-exchange values? I suspect that the low offers for GC’s car are related a lot more to the mileage than the warranty.

[Chris Dance]

I have owned a Gen 2 and now a Gen 3. Both cars have been great and the best cars I have ever owned. I have dealt with 3 different dealers and all have been very good.

My son has a Gen 2 57 plate for business and pleasure it has done 68,000 miles in UK and Europe with no problems except renewing brake discs and pads.

I cannot say they I got the trade in price that I wanted for my Avensis or Gen 2.

My neighbour got an exdellent trade in for his old Renault against a new Chevrolet. He has had both mechanical and dealer problems.

I sympathise with the guys with only a three year warranty if it is reducing the trade in price.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

From these figures there is no sign of a sudden jump in prices of cars after May 2010, so back to my original question of why is there a jump in part-exchange values? I suspect that the low offers for GC’s car are related a lot more to the mileage than the warranty.

I know it's grown long now but read the entire thread :)

I have never said it is purely the gen3 that suffers, I have never hidden my mileage. If you have a 2 year old gen3 with 16,000 miles I'm sure you'll get a good price for it.

The poor trade in price refers to cars OVER the 60,000 mile warranty. The trade have told me they are worthless (within reason obvsiously) BECAUSE they are out of hybrid warranty and nobody wants to chance it. In the past there was the 100,000 mile or 8 year warranty on the hybrid and HV Battery system - which is worrysome to some purchasers. So you had a gen2 with 78,000 miles people would still buy them, now with a gen3 at 61,000 miles nobody (again not literally) wants to take the chance. If you do 5,000 miles a year and intend to keep the car for 10 years then you have no issue. If you do 18,000 miles a year, which isn't overly high for some commuters in the UK, then you might find a worthless trade in value after 4 years time.

That is why the values are affected. And the handful of gen3's with the 60,000 warranty might drag down the newer cars once a reputation gets out and negative reputations take ages to dispel! An example - We all still get told by friends that an M3 BMW is more efficient than a Prius because they watched that article on TopGear 5 years ago - we all know it's rubbish but I be you still get this 'story'. Once the trade (not Toyota dealers) get scared off, they'll take years to tempt back and all hybrid prices will suffer.

If this isn't the case, then why did Toyota offer a 100,000 miles 8 year warranty on the gen2 in the first place?

[Parts-King]

I still dont subscribe to the fact the early gen 3 has a lower warranty, therefore it is worth less in P/EX

The reason cars with high mileage have poor residual value is that they are just not worth as much! A bit like a car with FSH and one without. I have mentioned this before, as a dealership, we often will NOT take a decent car in P/EX because it has little or no service history. Customers come to a Toyota dealer to get good, low mileage cars with FSH and will pay for the priveledge, when we start to knock out high mileage cars or cars with no FSH, we turn into any old used car supermarket

Customers who know little about Hybrid are not willing to take a chance on higher mileage models, and thats why I feel they are just not holding their value, I see nothing wrong with the values on lower mileage cars. The combination of Hybrid and high miles is not a risk a lot of people want to take, because they nothing about Hybrid, I dont think it is anything to do with the lower warranty on the Hybrid element

Kingo

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Customers who know little about Hybrid are not willing to take a chance on higher mileage models, and thats why I feel they are just not holding their value, I see nothing wrong with the values on lower mileage cars. The combination of Hybrid and high miles is not a risk a lot of people want to take, because they nothing about Hybrid, I dont think it is anything to do with the lower warranty on the Hybrid element

And I have traded in many a high(er) mileage car. People don't mind buying a Mondeo with 61,000 miles because they know it'll be easy to fix and any old Tom, ***** or Harry knows how. People didn't seem to mind a higher mileage Prius when they knew they had at least some protection on the scary hybrid side until 100,000 miles or 8 years.

They DO seem to mind a Prius with 61,000 miles outside of the warranty because they don't understand how they work and are scared when it goes wrong. People don't want to take a chance on a hybrid with no manufacturers warranty.

This is the lowest trade in offer I have ever ever had for a car, percentage wise and/or money wise at this age and mileage. People just don't trust the hybrid without a manufacturers warranty and that will affect the used prices and cause a quicker downward price trend that will probably drag lower mileage cars with it.

[Ancient Nerd]

This was totally predictable from the point at which the 5 year warranty was introduced. And I've been banging on about it ever since.

The first point is that faced with two cars, one just before the warranty was introduced and one just after, a private buyer won't touch the older car unless there is a big price drop - and possibly not even then.

This is compounded by the hybrid fear of the unknown.

The problem is going to get a whole lot worse for Toyota soon, when the weasel warranty Prius starts running out of its warranty on time, not because of high mileage. At that point p/x values will drop through the floor for low mileage cars as well.

This is totally Toyota GB's problem, and unless they dig their heads out of the sand and fix it, it will do as much harm in the UK as the great brake fiasco.

In practise, they will ignore the problem, insist that there isn't one. Then when the harm is done, they will extend the weasel warranty and insist it was their idea in the first place.

From my point of view, the greatest hope is that a reasonable number of weasel warranty Fleet Prii were sold. Fleet buyers don't like residuals dropping through the floor.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

You know what's happened. Toyota knew that by making the motors and HV Battery smaller and lighter but more powerful that they would take a slightly bigger hit on warranty claims, but the cost of these few extra claims would be more than rewarded by cost savings on every single vehicle sold.

OK and no problem so far, especially if you live in California with a 150,000 8 or 10 year warranty. OK some higher mileage cars might require a new Battery but hey, so what, we'll sell more cars and make more profit so it's worth paying out the odd time.

Trouble is, Toyota UK wanted their cake and eat it. They know more cars will fail so reduced the warranty to accomodate this. Trouble is it'll affect customer confidence in their hybrids but since when did Toyota UK see further than the end of their nose?

You know they'd always bang on about the Prius being the lowest costing car for warranty claims and that they've never replaced more than a couple hybrid HV batteries in the UK on the gen2. Well I'd love to know if they still beat this drum for the gen3?

[Ancient Nerd]

The Prius is already dropping in the JD Power reliability ranking. It still has a long way to go.

What Toyota don't seem to realise is that most people don't mind an occasional problem, as long as it is fixed quickly and without fuss.

They used to, which resulted in Toyota's exceptional reputation for reliability. However, with the great brake fiasco they maximised the bad PR. Now they seem determined to ruin thir reputation further with the weasel warranty issue.

I also don't think they realise just how irritating it is to get mail after mail from Toyota with "5 year warranty" all over it. This is no way to keep customers.

[Parts-King]

This was totally predictable from the point at which the 5 year warranty was introduced. And I've been banging on about it ever since.

Whilst I'm sorry you feel that way about the weasel warranty, you are inventing a problem before it exists

The average man in the street will have no idea about weasel warranties or otherwise. I say again, it is the unknown Hybrid factor and high mileage that makes the residual value low. Anybody with a Toyota can buy an extended warranty up to 8 years and 100K, low values will only affect cars outside those parameters, so for the average motoring public, the weasel warranty doesnt come into it. If Toyota gave a 10 year warranty on the HV side of things, you would still have low values when it goes over 8 years 100K because you cannot get a warranty on it for all the other componants

Fleet companies DO want good residuals, but it's not just about that, with company car drivers paying more and more tax it is also about the BIK and 100% write down on Hybrid that they are more concerned with. I don't see any fleet companies shouting from the rooftop in the trade press

The problem is going to get a whole lot worse for Toyota soon, when the weasel warranty Prius starts running out of its warranty on time, not because of high mileage. At that point p/x values will drop through the floor for low mileage cars as well.

Don't agree, whilst it's under 8 years 100K you can top up the warranty, somebody coming to the Prius market will probably not know there was a 3, 5, 10 year or whatever warranty on the car when it was new, all they want to know is what warranty can they get on it when purchased

Kingo

[Parts-King]

I have traded in many a high(er) mileage car. People don't mind buying a Mondeo with 61,000 miles because they know it'll be easy to fix and any old Tom, ***** or Harry knows how. People didn't seem to mind a higher mileage Prius when they knew they had at least some protection on the scary hybrid side until 100,000 miles or 8 years.

They DO seem to mind a Prius with 61,000 miles outside of the warranty because they don't understand how they work and are scared when it goes wrong. People don't want to take a chance on a hybrid with no manufacturers warranty.

GC, I have read umpteen posts where people would compare the latest Diesel manual car to the Prius, and you said thay cannot compare a petrol auto to a manual Diesel, and here you are now trying to compare a Mondeo to a Prius. :D: Classic! You are right though, people know little about Hybrid and would be worried if they cannot get a warranty on it, to be fair, most of us would be worried, I would! But at the risk of repeating myself, that has nothing to do with the weasel warranty, it's about the high mileage that it has undertaken

Kingo

[Grumpy Cabbie]

GC, I have read umpteen posts where people would compare the latest Diesel manual car to the Prius, and you said thay cannot compare a petrol auto to a manual Diesel, and here you are now trying to compare a Mondeo to a Prius. :D: Classic!

I chose the Mondeo for good reason. Perhaps I should have spent £12,000 on a 6 month old Mondeo diesel I wouldn't have lost as much money. Sure the Prius gets 75 mpg but at what cost? Nearly £2,000 fitted for a steering rack and I'm on my third? I have saved £6,000 in fuel but lost it all in depreciation on a car that costs a bleeding fortune to fix and hasn't been the most reliable as the miles have added up.

I like the dealers and I like the style of the Prius but with hindsight it wasn't worth £18,000 and it most certainly isn't worth the £21,000 they're asking now.

[Parts-King]

You're at it again! Comparing a used 6 month old car having taken in it's depreciation to a new one without depreciation!

£2000 for a rack? Did you pay that?

I just don't subscribe to the fact that your 61K plus car is worthless because of the weasel warranty??? Narrr, thats bollards, put an extended warranty on it and all is restored yes? Well it would be if you applied the theory that your car is worthless because of the lesser warranty

Kingo

[Grumpy Cabbie]

You're at it again! Comparing a used 6 month old car having taken in it's depreciation to a new one without depreciation!

£2000 for a rack? Did you pay that?

I just don't subscribe to the fact that your 61K plus car is worthless because of the weasel warranty??? Narrr, thats bollards, put an extended warranty on it and all is restored yes? Well it would be if you applied the theory that your car is worthless because of the lesser warranty

Kingo

10/10 for positive spin.

The damage is done. The second hand value of gen3's is way below that for the gen2's taking in age and mileage. Anyhow, I'm one of the first few to run out of this lower warranty. Wait until more get there and find nobody wants to take their trade in once they hit 60,000 miles.

We're going round in circles now. I bet we haven't heard the last of this though. Wait until a few more customers get stung when they reach 60,000 miles or near to it. The average mileage is 12,000 pa, but a lot of Prii were bought by business users and fleets who mostly do more than that. Once the fleet market get stung by the Prius they'll drop it like they dropped Citroens and Renaults.

I'll go back to the old saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". There won't be a second time for me.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Just been checking out Autotrader and thought I'd search prices on the Prius (as you do).

Quite shocked at the prices. Do a national search for the 1.8 prius with no minimal price and you'll find a 2010 t3 with under 30,000 miles for £11,000 via a dealer. OK a non Toyota dealer but still a dealer. How much would that car go for privately?

So in under 2 years a £21,000 car drops to £11,000 with 28,268 miles? (and there are a few at that price and similar miles)

And you're telling me the warranty hasn't detroyed second hand prices? Well something has. The gen2 held its value well, so why doesn't the same apply to the gen3?

So it's not just the high mileage cars suffering.

Oh and in case you're wondering how much the gen2 goes for - try replacing the search criteria to the 1.5 engine upto 3 years old. You'll see they're virtually the same and I mean within about £500. Since when does the older model demand a similar or higher price than the incoming model?