Fuel Differences (No I Am Not Re-Opening That Can Of Worms Again)

[local hero]

Had a nice chap from the Netherlands in my cab today, took him to Shells tech research centre at Stanlow, so i asked him the differences between fuels, And if my memory serves me well, this is his explanation... All crude oil arrives at the refineries, where it is refined into various petro chemical products to include, petrol, diesel, paraffin, kerosene, Etc Etc even bitumen was mentioned. In the case of petrol, and diesel, it is pumped/ taken to the supply/distribution depots where it is stored in the huge tanks we are all familiar with, at this point it is the basic fuel and is exactly the same, only when it is known where it is being distributed to, IE Tesco, Asda. Shell,texaco, does it take on a different identity, this is achieved by the addition of additives, who's formulae is a closely guarded secret by rival companies, these additves are actually only added as the fuel is loaded into the tankers for delivery, which is why you hear people say they have seen Tesco/ Bp tankers in a Shell depot i cannot vouch for any of this, but somehow i do not think this guy was the Tea boy!!!

[Davrav]

Yup, that's exactly the explanation I got from Shell technical services Stew.

[crofter]

Am I being thick here?

Don't get me wrong I am not doubting your posts as to what you were told.

If it is a secret what goes in with the branded fuels, if tankers are filling up at the opposition's tanks,does the alien brands tanker have the "secret addatives" in before it goes in for filling?

Otherwise how could they keep their secrets?

Hope this makes sense,if not I am blaming the weather.

Del

[anchorman]

It is also exactly the same explanation I gave in the engine thread;

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132178&view=findpost&p=1176133

and here;

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124764&view=findpost&p=1113783

I wouldn't mind having a pint with your passenger Stewpot and just grill him for a while!

[anchorman]

It is also exactly the same explanation I gave in the engine thread;

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132178&view=findpost&p=1176133

and here;

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124764&view=findpost&p=1113783

I wouldn't mind having a pint with your passenger Stewpot and just grill him for a while!

Am I being thick here?

Don't get me wrong I am not doubting your posts as to what you were told.

If it is a secret what goes in with the branded fuels, if tankers are filling up at the opposition's tanks,does the alien brands tanker have the "secret addatives" in before it goes in for filling?

Otherwise how could they keep their secrets?

Hope this makes sense,if not I am blaming the weather.

Del

The stuff in the big tank is just how it comes from the refineries - raw diesel if you like. The place where the tankers fill is just part of the distribution network (underground pipelines with tanks at the end). They mix in the additives when each tanker fills up.

[DjRav]

I have done work for many different companies based at a nearby refinery for 20+ years and can vouch that many different branded tankers leave the area fed by the very same fuels. It's an "Esso" refinery but (for example) there's a huge BP complex just next door fed from it! I've seen many supermarkets, branded fuels as well as lesser known commercial suppliers like Watsons etc leave the place!

It's all in the mixing though and is highly secret and highly complex. Do you think any of us could chuck in additives to cheap fuel and get the same results?!

Dave

NB I fill at Morrisons mostly (as most convenient) but treat myself to Shell as often as I can!

[Big Kev]

Nice to hear from this new chap Local Hero...LOL.

Could I put this into the mix (good, eh....?)These tankers are very more than likely not the property of said refineries and are operated by a logistics / transport company. The different refiners will have paid to have their livery on a certain amount of tankers, and for varying reasons of off-roadness, their own liveried vehicle(s) are not always available to them, hence BP vehicles delivering to other brand outlets....?

Come in such as Cab McCurtains if this is mince (which is possible....)

Big Kev

[DjRav]

Have you ever seen a BP tanker filling the tanks at a Shell fuel station?

Dave

[Big Kev]

Have you ever seen a BP tanker filling the tanks at a Shell fuel station?

Dave

Totally the opposite....Shell LIVERIED tanker delivering to BP Filling Station at Muirhead on outskirts of Glasgow (25 minutes from Grangemouth refinery....), or maybe he was filling up his tank........?

Big Kev

[Manxrav]

Would have to agree with BK there. Me thinks it,s all down to the Logistics Companies and availability of Fleet. We get Tesco deliveries on island but it,s not delivered by Stobarts,it,s subbed to Graylaws, in their own trucks.

Regards Clare

[crofter]

The plot thickens ! ! !

Think I'll stop digging,or should it be drilling, whil'st I am only up to my neck.

Red neck Del

[Big Kev]

The plot thickens ! ! !

Think I'll stop digging,or should it be drilling, whil'st I am only up to my neck.

Red neck Del

We regularly go to Asda with M & S carrier bags, Del....means to an end.....household lojistifications..

[crofter]

The plot thickens ! ! !

Think I'll stop digging,or should it be drilling, whil'st I am only up to my neck.

Red neck Del

We regularly go to Asda with M & S carrier bags, Del....means to an end.....household loistifications..

Asda? M&S? Had you down as more of a Harrods man,man.

Del

[Cyker]

I wonder if you could get hold of some 'raw' diesel for cheaper and then throw in the additives etc. yourself? Or maybe if I could get hold of the GTL part of V-Power diesel I could mix it with some biodiesel and not need any additives

[Parts-King]

Seem to remember I was poo poo'd for saying the very same as LH's man, ho hum

Kingo

[local hero]

I wasn't trying to make any sort of statement here, and Tbh would have liked a few more answers myself, unfortunately foreign businessmen are more inclined to talk about, The weather, the economy, and MUFC/ Liverpool fc, usually in that order, i am sure every fuel company would like us to believe that their secret additive ( which is about as secret as colonel Sanders southern fried chicken recipe.. i.e all the same).. Is the only product, that will increase mpg, clean our engines, and give us an extra 10,000 mls before our engines disintegrate.. Just as a daft thought, I wonder if we could organise a tour of said refinery, then onto Toyotas engine plant 20mls away at Deeside, then round to Lindop 5mins away to see an engine change, then on to Kingos favorite curry house in Ellesmere Port ...Stew

[Hoovie]

You could add in one of the Refineries at Ellesmere Port on the itinerary.

I used to go to Associated Octel (think they did something on lead substitute additives?) there to work on some of their IT when the regular service guys couldn't fix stuff, and I remember being told that they used to have to replace all the floppy drives (it was a while ago!) every year as the pollutants in the air coated all the heads!

Someone remember the breathing apparatus!

[junebug1701]

The ExxonMobil/Exxon/Esso refinery has been a huge part of my home town for over a century. I remember taking school field trips there and we learned about how they did cat cracking and distillation of crude oil into everything from petrol to road tar. My father worked there for a while, and my aunt retired from there after 40 years:

http://www.exxonmobi...ere_ref_br.aspx

[Tech01]

The fuel companies have along history of "pooling" production and pipeline distribution.

Have you ever wondered how one of our major airports manages to fill up hundreds of planes a day with tens of 1000s of litres a time from those meagre storage tanks on the airport's periphery?

Well they don't. Most of the UK's airports (civil and military) are linked to a "national grid" pipe network. The fuel companies all pump their aviation-grade kerosene into this grid, the contents of which are completely mixed. At Heathrow, for example, Airline A will have a fuel contract with Fuel Company X, and when the refuelling contractor pumps 50,000 litres aboard an aircraft, the paperwork (and subsequent invoicing) simply states X to A. It's all an accountancy exercise, no different from the gas and electricity grids. Any talk of a tanker-drivers' strike bringing airports to a standstill is just pure propaganda!

So it comes as no surprise that something very similar happens with road fuel. Remember the Buncefield fire? And how many oil companies were involved at that single site?

The posts above just go to confirm this further.

Additives - sure - they are likely to be the only differences. Personally, I'm fairly satisfied that you may as well add decent additives yourself to standard grade (decent brand) diesel, and not pay the considerable extra for the marketing hype associated with 'ultra' diesel fuels.

Chris

[crofter]

How about petrol,does anyone know if there is much variation and worthwhile benefits to be gained between them in the real world of the average driver.?

I am refering to the "standard" grade available,not the super dooper all singing stuff.

Del

[DjRav]

Filled up with Diesel from a Shell garage yesterday. Just next to me (just finished) was a rather large Power Boat who had just filled with Unleaded. I asked the attendant when I went in to pay how much he'd taken to fill up. Apparently it was 500 litres, which the chap said would last around 2 hours going flat out! He did say he'd be able to cover 200 miles in that time though!

Dave

PS I make that less than 2 miles/gallon!! And thinking about it, if you were doing that on a regular basis you'd be a bit fussy what fuel you used and how much you pay

[Big Kev]

The fuel companies have along history of "pooling" production and pipeline distribution.

Have you ever wondered how one of our major airports manages to fill up hundreds of planes a day with tens of 1000s of litres a time from those meagre storage tanks on the airport's periphery?

Well they don't. Most of the UK's airports (civil and military) are linked to a "national grid" pipe network. The fuel companies all pump their aviation-grade kerosene into this grid, the contents of which are completely mixed. At Heathrow, for example, Airline A will have a fuel contract with Fuel Company X, and when the refuelling contractor pumps 50,000 litres aboard an aircraft, the paperwork (and subsequent invoicing) simply states X to A. It's all an accountancy exercise, no different from the gas and electricity grids. Any talk of a tanker-drivers' strike bringing airports to a standstill is just pure propaganda!

So it comes as no surprise that something very similar happens with road fuel. Remember the Buncefield fire? And how many oil companies were involved at that single site?

The posts above just go to confirm this further.

Additives - sure - they are likely to be the only differences. Personally, I'm fairly satisfied that you may as well add decent additives yourself to standard grade (decent brand) diesel, and not pay the considerable extra for the marketing hype associated with 'ultra' diesel fuels.

Chris

Hands up all of those who were not aware of this "pipework grid / network". I bet lots of hands are now up.....interesting bit of info there.-, Chris.

The arithmetic of adding a whole dose of, say, BG244 ADDITIVE TO A FULL TANK OF STANDARD DIESEL is quite interesting compared to THE EXTRA FEW PENCE it costs to use the "super diesels."

BG244 would work out at about 40p a litre difference, and would it have all the required additives that "super diesels" claim to have....?

And all this from somebody who advocates the use of both BG244 and the better grades of diesel.....

Big Kev

[Tech01]

" And all this from somebody who advocates the use of both BG244 and the better grades of diesel..... "

Morning, Kev...

Not sure whether your comment refers to you, or to me! What I was advocating was adding a sensible additive to a decent standard-grade diesel fueI. From what you say, BG244 (however well it works) sounds prohibitively expensive for regular use. Far better priced for routine use are Millers Diesel Power Plus, or Wynn's diesel fuel treatment (esp. in the 1-litre 'fleet' container), and which do contain helpful cleaners and improvers.

It looks as if we might be embarking on another debate on diesel fuel quality and additives. Are we all ready for this???

On the aviation front, it came as a real surprise to me to find out about the national fuel grid. The information came from someone working in the aircraft refuelling business.

What the UK needs now is a national grid for water, to get the northern surplus available elsewhere. In the 1950s, and following the post-war construction of the national electricity grid by the newly-created CEGB, an uncle of mine was part of a team looking at the feasibility of a national 'water grid'. Their recommendation was to make extensive use of the then British Waterways canal network, plus additional pipeage. No chance for this now, as the water companies' shareholders come top of the list of priorities!

Meanwhile....

Have a good breakfast,

Chris

[Big Kev]

Comments and arithmetic purely "aimed" at me, me ol' mucker, partly due to t'other day had to coincidentally fill both Ravs within an hour of each other.....sholey hit I thought to myself....that was sore. Really would now look at ways of fuel expense reduction, so maybe time to look at the additives you mention.

And similar to you and all of us, DESPERATE NOT TO START ANURRA FUEL DEBATE !!!!

[crofter]

Comments and arithmetic purely "aimed" at me, me ol' mucker, partly due to t'other day had to coincidentally fill both Ravs within an hour of each other.....sholey hit I thought to myself....that was sore. Really would now look at ways of fuel expense reduction, so maybe time to look at the additives you mention.

And similar to you and all of us, DESPERATE NOT TO START ANURRA FUEL DEBATE !!!!

Due to not wishing to start something members do not want,without malice,I withdraw my question :ermm:

Aint this grand weather tho'

Del