Fuel Differences (No I Am Not Re-Opening That Can Of Worms Again)

[anchorman]

Its what forums are for.

There is no way I will be substituting fuel that a fuel company has tested on dynamometers for 100s of hours to measure the effects of engine wear, power, emmissions etc for something I have mixed from cheap diesel and something from a bottle. The way I see it, if I'm spending £75 on a tank of diesel what difference does it make if I am spending £80?

The only option to such concerns is a Yaris.

[Manxrav]

Don is that a petrol or Diesel Yaris? just wondering cause the U/C has the same engines.

Regards Clare

[anchorman]

OK Clare, a Yaris or a UC!!!

You do rather better than us RAV4 owners whether you have a petrol or diesel. If I had the UC it would be a diesel as I would want the 4WD.

[Hoovie]

Kev, bear in mind that the 40p a litre would only be correct if you were adding it to every fillup. It is meant to be used every 10,000 miles, not every 400-500 miles, which on that basis makes more like 2p a litre tops.

I would think given the way that type of additive is applied, it's a different animal to the additives you would apply on each fillup, which could possibly be considered alternatives to Premium fuel.

Still not found a tangible benefit to premium vs standard branded fuel myself :(

The fuel companies have along history of "pooling" production and pipeline distribution.

Have you ever wondered how one of our major airports manages to fill up hundreds of planes a day with tens of 1000s of litres a time from those meagre storage tanks on the airport's periphery?

Well they don't. Most of the UK's airports (civil and military) are linked to a "national grid" pipe network. The fuel companies all pump their aviation-grade kerosene into this grid, the contents of which are completely mixed. At Heathrow, for example, Airline A will have a fuel contract with Fuel Company X, and when the refuelling contractor pumps 50,000 litres aboard an aircraft, the paperwork (and subsequent invoicing) simply states X to A. It's all an accountancy exercise, no different from the gas and electricity grids. Any talk of a tanker-drivers' strike bringing airports to a standstill is just pure propaganda!

So it comes as no surprise that something very similar happens with road fuel. Remember the Buncefield fire? And how many oil companies were involved at that single site?

The posts above just go to confirm this further.

Additives - sure - they are likely to be the only differences. Personally, I'm fairly satisfied that you may as well add decent additives yourself to standard grade (decent brand) diesel, and not pay the considerable extra for the marketing hype associated with 'ultra' diesel fuels.

Chris

Hands up all of those who were not aware of this "pipework grid / network". I bet lots of hands are now up.....interesting bit of info there.-, Chris.

The arithmetic of adding a whole dose of, say, BG244 ADDITIVE TO A FULL TANK OF STANDARD DIESEL is quite interesting compared to THE EXTRA FEW PENCE it costs to use the "super diesels."

BG244 would work out at about 40p a litre difference, and would it have all the required additives that "super diesels" claim to have....?

And all this from somebody who advocates the use of both BG244 and the better grades of diesel.....

Big Kev

[BeechCustom]

FWIW I keep a very keen eye on my mpg and the last two fuel ups I've used Shell and BP standard petrol rather than the usual Asda fuel. My mpg has actually gone slightly DOWN on these fuels. Obviously, this is extremely un-scientific as there are so many variables to contend with but I drive pretty much the same route week in week out.

[Big Kev]

A point of goodness, oh nearly Scottish person.

Big Kev

[DjRav]

FWIW I keep a very keen eye on my mpg and the last two fuel ups I've used Shell and BP standard petrol rather than the usual Asda fuel. My mpg has actually gone slightly DOWN on these fuels. Obviously, this is extremely un-scientific as there are so many variables to contend with but I drive pretty much the same route week in week out.

I document every fill up and keep note along with the mpg calc. I have used morrisons and I have used Shell standard fuels. There has been no noticeable difference in mpg, but that's not the reason to buy Shell. It's because it's "better fuel" and hopefully therefore better for running and maintaining your engine. Shell is also very competitive in some places, and it's rarely outdone by the supermarkets by more than a penny or two if at all.

So, if I can, I use Shell. But if I'm desperate (cos there's one near me) I use morrisons!

Dave

[BeechCustom]

Understood Dave. You're running a diesel though. Do you think same applies for petrol?

[anchorman]

I suspect it is but the effects would take longer to manifest themselves.

[dervdave]

Still not found a tangible benefit to premium vs standard branded fuel myself :(

Thats fair enough, as long as your happy with your choice .

Personally I`m not happy unless its V-Power. :D

[Cyker]

It does depend a lot on the engine and driving style. If you have a low RPM engine and tend to drive economically in the 1-1.5k range all the time, V-Power diesel won't make much difference and may even feel worse! (It certainly does in mine!)

I find it runs better at higher RPMs, 2k and beyond.

I love using it if I know I'm going to do a lot of motorway runs as I find my Yaris' D4D runs a lot smoother so high RPM vibrations are a lot less scary and I can use the full rev range of the engine!

(But mainly I use it as a cheap way to put some cleaning agents in every now and then to make sure the injectors don't crud up, which was a problem I had when I first bought the car and never took it out on the motorway!)

[webleymk3]

I think it is all a big conspiracy. The fuels are all premixed before being loaded into the tanker... At the Shell station they feed the 'vpower' pump from the same tank as as the normal fuel... They just charge more for it because the sign says they can........

[webleymk3]

Just kidding!

Seriously I always use v-power now. My engine was previously clunky and noisy with no torque in 6th gear at 70mph.

I started using v-power and then ran a tin of bg244 through. The engine is quieter, smoother, has decent torque at 70mph (ie I dont feel I need to change down now) and most importantly is regularly returning 50mpg...

You cannot run two tanks through and then make your call. The v-power will take longer than that to make a difference, especially if you've been on the supermarket crap which will carbonise your engine.

My dad's golf was returning 60mpg, hes now pushing up to 70mpg on v-power. Again I add that didn't happen in one tank.. He had to be consistent in its use.

My suggestion: give it a proper chance. Don't just try it for one tank and decide it doesn't work... You won't notice any difference in that time. Run some bg244 through the tank as well. You'll be staggered how the combination effects your engine.

Right, back into my box..

[Hoovie]

I was running vPower for the last maybe 3,000 miles? soon as I bought the car I used it.

It is hard to be sure with variences in journeys etc.

I don't have a type of 'daily commute' type useage pattern where I can replicate the pattern and work out the difference, but I honestly cannot tell the difference V-Power to standard branded in terms of smoothness, pickup, economy, and all these other things.

Cyker had an interesting comment ...."It does depend a lot on the engine and driving style. If you have a low RPM engine and tend to drive economically in the 1-1.5k range all the time, V-Power diesel won't make much difference and may even feel worse! (It certainly does in mine!)"

While it is no worse, it does not seem to make a difference and the engine in my RAV4 Auto tends to be running at the 1500RPM range or lower just about all time, so he may have the reason there in MY particular case?

As I bought the RAV with just shy of 10,000 miles on the clock, I decided to add a treatment of BG244 as I obviously had no knowledge of what fuel had been used in those miles, so decided it was worth a £20 punt that would do no harm.

That BG244 is probably about 20% of the way through its quoted 10,000 mile cycle life (i.e. Added about 2,000 miles ago) and the benefits should have come in by now, but again hard to tell as I had nothing specific I needed to fix, unlike some other older RAVs with maybe more miles and possibly run on supermarket fuel before they bought (or before they 'saw the light' !)?

Dunno really. If I am in a position to do regular identical journeys, maybe I will try a comparison test again?

[Cyker]

Well I can deffo say that on V-Power diesel the low-end pull is noticeably weaker - I have to change my driving style slightly (Hanging on to gears longer before up-shifting, esp. up hills!), but it picks up a lot faster and is great on motorway runs. The Yaris's D4D already has very good response for a diesel engine (I love how I can goose it and it just launches effortlessly - Makes overtaking much easier than in my old Fiesta!), but normally the pull starts to slack off after about 3k; With the V-Power I drops off 3.8-4k.

The thing with V-Power is, although it has the GTL ("Synthetic diesel") component which burns faster, it's also got more additives (Cleaning agents and such) which provide no energy but still take up 'space', so per unit volume it actually has less energy than normal diesel. It does burn more completely (Hence much lower smokiness) thanks to the GTL and faster, so at higher rpm it can keep up with the piston speed better which is why I think it keeps the pull at the higher end.

[anchorman]

High performance fuels burn slower (more controlled rate).

[bitman]

Filled up with Diesel from a Shell garage yesterday. Just next to me (just finished) was a rather large Power Boat who had just filled with Unleaded. I asked the attendant when I went in to pay how much he'd taken to fill up. Apparently it was 500 litres, which the chap said would last around 2 hours going flat out! He did say he'd be able to cover 200 miles in that time though!

and he was probably was talking about sea miles! ;)

[Tech01]

High performance fuels burn slower (more controlled rate).

This is my understanding too. A cheap/basic diesel fuel will burn (emitting energy as it does) very quickly, and it's akin to whacking the piston with a hefty hammer: the energy release is virtually instantaneous, and hence the traditional "diesel knock". In years gone by, the noise could be deafening close-up, and was muffled by massive engine metalwork, or sound-absorbing underbonnet panels.

Cetane-improvers are added to high-quality diesel fuels, and these have the effect of prolonging the burn, and making it more complete. A prolonged burn means that, instead of a sudden whack to the piston, the piston is effectively given a longer and steady push downwards. This reduces noise and vibration, and makes for a smoother driving experience. The more complete burn reduces the amount of unburnt hydrocarbons in the exhaust, lessening exhaust noise, and lowering soot/smoke levels.

Budget fuels are low on cetane improvers (and other additives to promote cleaning). Ten years ago, the difference between Esso's Diesel 2000 (high on additives) and supermarket fuel (or even standard diesel from other refiners for that matter) was striking. Esso 2000 gave quieter engines, and increased torque and flexibility.

Even the limited, tell-you-nothing, publicity put out by the fuel companies proclaims the difference between their standard diesel fuel and their 'super' offering is simply a matter of "additives", there to promote "cleaning" and "more complete combusion", so nothing new there.

There seem to be three sorts of diesel fuel on the market:

- budget/supermarket fuel

- standard main-brand fuel

- 'super' main-brand fuel.

Personally, I think the first is just best avoided. The third certainly works (for many), but is at a price! The other option is to use the second (i.e. standard Esso, Shell, BP, Total, Repsol or w.h.y.) and add your own additive. Out here, it costs me €1.16 per fill-up for 40ml of Wynn's diesel fuel additive; the extra cost of posh diesel would be €2.40.

___________

My take on BG244 is that it sounds as if it works as a fuel system cleaner. As such, there's nothing wrong with doing a clean every 10,000 miles. But, the cleaning effect will obviously tail off when a fresh tankful of fuel is added, and any claimed combustion-improving benefits will be comparatively short-lived. When running with fuel which is high on cleaning/improver additives (or adding your own at each fill), the benefits are continuous.

Chris

[Cyker]

My understanding with V-Power diesel was that it it burned (ignited?) faster which is why it burns more evenly and completely. If it burned slower, surely it would produce more smoke because it wouldn't have time to burn completely, esp. at higher RPMs?

I know with petrol, higher Octane rating = more resistance to ignition (i.e. harder to burn) which allows higher compression ratios to be used, but I thought Cetane was the opposite; i.e. higher cetane = less resistance to ignition = easier to burn.

Also, D4D supposedly doesn't just throw the diesel in one squirt, but rather it fires multiple times to try and avoid the hard knock (Which is needed with the D4D as the cylinder block is much more fragile than a traditional diesel lump!)

[anchorman]

Not the fragile 2AD scare aagain!

All modern diesels have 2 stage or multiple injection but nothing to do with blowing fragile engines apart fortunately. Its all about getting the best from the engine power and our old friend emmissions.

Chris has summed the burn rates up quite well above but if you try to imagine that cheap fuel just goes BANG and quality fuels burn at a more progressive or measurable rate, the designers can cater much better for that because they know what to expect. In extreme cases of detonation (pinking or pre-ignition) the piston can effectively be forced back down on the compression stroke - against the proper rotation and therefore losing power. It just depends on throttle loads and demand but in some cases it can slightly improve performance as some people have reported - they have noticed it goes slightly better with cheap stuff in.

If you come back to the main benefits, you need to look inside your engine at the amount and hardness of the carbon in there. Premium diesel is best for your engine.

[Cyker]

Okay, this was bugging me (Yes, I have no life! ) so I did a bit of research and it does seem that better quality diesel = faster burning diesel; The "higher quality = slower burning" thing only applies to petrol engines.

This does make sense tho' as the way the fuel burns in a petrol engine is completely different to the way it burns in a diesel engine:

Petrol engines get a nice even pre-mixed air-fuel charge that goes into the cylinder before compression, and when the spark plug fires the whole thing burns quite rapidly because the fuel is already vaporized and surrounded by air.

With diesel engines, it's only air in the cylinder during the compression stroke, and the fuel gets squirted in afterwards - They are not pre-mixed, and the diesel is still in liquid droplet form, not a vapour as in petrol engines, so you WANT the fuel to burn faster as the droplets only burn on their surface so there is less fuel burning at a given moment compared to petrol.

re. "the fragile 2AD", I didn't mean that (I don't even know what that is! ), I was just referring to the fact that modern aluminium alloy diesel engines are a lot more fragile than their old steel counterparts. They actually can't take the pressure of diesel compression long term without serious metal fatigue problems, which is why they all (Even our beloved D4D!) have a steel jacket inside the cylinder to protect the much softer aluminium.

You certainly can't abuse them anywhere near as much as older engines by, e.g., super/turbo-charging them up the ying-yang

[flyboyprowler]

High performance fuels burn slower (more controlled rate).

This is my understanding too. A cheap/basic diesel fuel will burn (emitting energy as it does) very quickly, and it's akin to whacking the piston with a hefty hammer: the energy release is virtually instantaneous, and hence the traditional "diesel knock". In years gone by, the noise could be deafening close-up, and was muffled by massive engine metalwork, or sound-absorbing underbonnet panels.

Cetane-improvers are added to high-quality diesel fuels, and these have the effect of prolonging the burn, and making it more complete. A prolonged burn means that, instead of a sudden whack to the piston, the piston is effectively given a longer and steady push downwards. This reduces noise and vibration, and makes for a smoother driving experience. The more complete burn reduces the amount of unburnt hydrocarbons in the exhaust, lessening exhaust noise, and lowering soot/smoke levels.

Budget fuels are low on cetane improvers (and other additives to promote cleaning). Ten years ago, the difference between Esso's Diesel 2000 (high on additives) and supermarket fuel (or even standard diesel from other refiners for that matter) was striking. Esso 2000 gave quieter engines, and increased torque and flexibility.

Even the limited, tell-you-nothing, publicity put out by the fuel companies proclaims the difference between their standard diesel fuel and their 'super' offering is simply a matter of "additives", there to promote "cleaning" and "more complete combusion", so nothing new there.

There seem to be three sorts of diesel fuel on the market:

- budget/supermarket fuel

- standard main-brand fuel

- 'super' main-brand fuel.

Personally, I think the first is just best avoided. The third certainly works (for many), but is at a price! The other option is to use the second (i.e. standard Esso, Shell, BP, Total, Repsol or w.h.y.) and add your own additive. Out here, it costs me €1.16 per fill-up for 40ml of Wynn's diesel fuel additive; the extra cost of posh diesel would be €2.40.

___________

My take on BG244 is that it sounds as if it works as a fuel system cleaner. As such, there's nothing wrong with doing a clean every 10,000 miles. But, the cleaning effect will obviously tail off when a fresh tankful of fuel is added, and any claimed combustion-improving benefits will be comparatively short-lived. When running with fuel which is high on cleaning/improver additives (or adding your own at each fill), the benefits are continuous.

Chris

Having had problems with an engine management light, and after having the sensors and an injector cleaned, the problem seemed to go away. On a recent trip for 10 1/2 hours, from south to north of Spain, the light returned when we reached UK shores. However since using UK, (Shell) fuel the light has gone out. My thoughts agree with Chris above. The benefits of a mid range fuel, and the addition of a fuel additive would probably work out cheaper than always using premium juice. My local garage in Spain blames the management light problem on dirty holding tanks, though I am not convinced.

[anchorman]

Diesel is a gas when it is injected into a diesel engine due to being dispersed at 1500 bar. Where did you get this information Cyker?

Also, the trouble with mixing additives is that you can't do it consistently but just using premixed fuel you can. I'm not saying it will cause harm, it's just an unknown quantity.

[bothwell_buyer]

I came across an odd one recently - our drivers buy 'bunker diesel' using dedicated fleet cards to pay. On a recent invoice a driver had mistakenly filled up with Shell vpower Diesel and it was charged to us by the agency at 8p a litre cheaper!!!! Still waiting for the agency to reply to my request to explain !!

[dave.m]

I came across an odd one recently - our drivers buy 'bunker diesel' using dedicated fleet cards to pay. On a recent invoice a driver had mistakenly filled up with Shell vpower Diesel and it was charged to us by the agency at 8p a litre cheaper!!!! Still waiting for the agency to reply to my request to explain !!

Got a bit of puzzle there myself, currently paying nowt for my diesel