Pre Face-Lift 140 - Death Rattle; How Common?

[159john]

I've recently bought a 2001 140 with only 48k on the clock, and am delighted to find that in the 1100 or so miles I've done, it seems to have used no oil at all. Having read all about the 'issue' with these engines, I'm now left wondering just how common this problem is.

When trawling that well-know automotive selling site, I saw many pre face-lift 140's with well over 100k for sale - is it likely that all these have had replacement engines/extensive work done, or is it possible for a properly maintained car to reach that sort of mileage without ever experiencing the death-rattle?

I absolutely love everything about the Celica, but am wondering whether I should play safe and chop it in against a face lift model for peace of mind? (note to self - check out problems with a prospective car purchase BEFORE buying next time!)

Thanks for your help guys

John.

[armoredfist2002]

There are quite a few pre facelift 140's that have had the death rattle occur, but not all of them have, it seems as if the oil wasn't regularly changed would lead to more problems later down the line, some have been fixed and some have had replacement engines, others have had a 190 lump fitted.

There also seem to be quite a few with over 100,000 miles on the clock and don't use a drop of oil, it seems like it's pot luck for it to happen, not trying to jinx you or your car but 48k is still low some cars can develop the problem later in it's life.

I wouldn't like to have the thought in the back of my mind it could be possible that I could end up having a problem in the future

[edwardio]

Make you you service the car each year, use quality oil & check it weekly you should be ok.

My 140 was on 113k before i switch it out for my supercharger build & that never used oil.

Just look after it!

[159john]

Thanks guys. My car doesn't have a full service history although it does have Toyota stamps every year until 2007. Since then there has been nothing in the book, but when I bought it the oil looked brand new, as did the oil filter which is a Toyota item - suggesting that it has been properly maintained but for some reason the second owner of the car never had the service book stamped.

I have been checking the oil every week and the level hasn't moved on the dipstick. Am I right in thinking that the actual terminal damage to the engine is only done if the oil level drops too low, and that the the car using oil is just a sign that it has the problem developing?

[armoredfist2002]

I'm a member on celica club, don't know if you have been on there?

this is taken from a pinned topic we have in the newbies section. Hope it's some use to you.

Alot of posts put in the newbie section here ask are from new members that have joined asking about their prefacelift 140 engines burning alot of oil. This is a common fault on all pre 52 plate generation 7 celicas and is well documented on the forums here and across the internet if you look for the information.

So if you have bought a 1999-2002 celica recently and its a 140 vvti you unfortunately will have the below design fault. 190s are unaffected.

Bascially the 1zz-fe (140) engine used in the 1999-2002 (up to 52 plate) before the facelift had a design problem. The below extract is taken from the toyota service bulletin issued at the time about the fault:

The root cause is the sticking of the oil control rings due to degradation of the engine oil.

There are a number of contributory factors:

1. Failure to follow the Manufacturers Service Schedule causes oil degradation.

2. Oil entering the combustion chamber being burnt and carried by ‘blow by’ gas down side of

piston as carbon particles.

3. The lower portion of the piston (especially around the oil control ring) runs hotter (160ºC) than

target (120ºC).

4. The oil flow in the oil control ring area is quickly restricted by any carbon particles reducing

lubrication, cooling and ‘flushing action’.

This in turn causes degradation of oil in the ring groove, further accelerating the sticking process.

These factors cause the oil in the oil control ring groove to degrade faster leading to sticking of the oil

control rings.

This fault exists in all prefacelift 1zz-fe engine, but it does not mean that you are dead certain to get the issue. Some people on here have no problems what so ever and are up in the 100k and haved burnt extra oil. Others unfortunately have. If you notice your celica burns alot of oil you have a few options:

1. Keep topping it up and take the hit on the oil costs

2. Try seafoam or similar products to clean and flush out the engine internals to clear out the carbon/piston rings. This has been known to slow the process

3. Replace the engine - do NOT get a recon (the engine is flawed as it is). Preferably get a facelift engine or a new one if anything.

4. Do a 190 conversion (not much extra cost to an engine swap - just need an ecu and a few other bits)

Obviously 3 and 4 are expensive options. Toyota wanted £2200 to do my change, luckily i found a toyota mechanic who worked on the side for cash and sourced a facelift block from toyota and fitted it for £1200. Reason for a facelift engine is that they sorted the problem in that block.

If you do not keep on top of your oil, you will most likely get the death rattle as we call it on here.

[159john]

I'm a member on celica club, don't know if you have been on there? this is taken from a pinned topic we have in the newbies section. Hope it's some use to you. Alot of posts put in the newbie section here ask are from new members that have joined asking about their prefacelift 140 engines burning alot of oil. This is a common fault on all pre 52 plate generation 7 celicas and is well documented on the forums here and across the internet if you look for the information. So if you have bought a 1999-2002 celica recently and its a 140 vvti you unfortunately will have the below design fault. 190s are unaffected. Bascially the 1zz-fe (140) engine used in the 1999-2002 (up to 52 plate) before the facelift had a design problem. The below extract is taken from the toyota service bulletin issued at the time about the fault: The root cause is the sticking of the oil control rings due to degradation of the engine oil. There are a number of contributory factors: 1. Failure to follow the Manufacturers Service Schedule causes oil degradation. 2. Oil entering the combustion chamber being burnt and carried by ‘blow by’ gas down side of piston as carbon particles. 3. The lower portion of the piston (especially around the oil control ring) runs hotter (160ºC) than target (120ºC). 4. The oil flow in the oil control ring area is quickly restricted by any carbon particles reducing lubrication, cooling and ‘flushing action’. This in turn causes degradation of oil in the ring groove, further accelerating the sticking process. These factors cause the oil in the oil control ring groove to degrade faster leading to sticking of the oil control rings. This fault exists in all prefacelift 1zz-fe engine, but it does not mean that you are dead certain to get the issue. Some people on here have no problems what so ever and are up in the 100k and haved burnt extra oil. Others unfortunately have. If you notice your celica burns alot of oil you have a few options: 1. Keep topping it up and take the hit on the oil costs 2. Try seafoam or similar products to clean and flush out the engine internals to clear out the carbon/piston rings. This has been known to slow the process 3. Replace the engine - do NOT get a recon (the engine is flawed as it is). Preferably get a facelift engine or a new one if anything. 4. Do a 190 conversion (not much extra cost to an engine swap - just need an ecu and a few other bits) Obviously 3 and 4 are expensive options. Toyota wanted £2200 to do my change, luckily i found a toyota mechanic who worked on the side for cash and sourced a facelift block from toyota and fitted it for £1200. Reason for a facelift engine is that they sorted the problem in that block. If you do not keep on top of your oil, you will most likely get the death rattle as we call it on here.

Very useful information - thanks.

In previous car's I've used "Millers Petrol Power Ecomax" fuel additive; do you think this would have any benefit in helping reduce the carbon deposits, and so help prolong the engine life? I know it's designed primarily to keep the injectors and fuel system clean. Maybe an engine oil additive would help instead? I appreciate that regular oil changes are essential in addition.

Appreciate all the help and advice - great Forum and nice to be able to take advtange of other enthusiast owner's experiences.

[armoredfist2002]

You could use some sort of engine cleaner, it may just clean out the oilways just incase they may be partially blocked, I always use quality oil like fuchs titan pro race s (previously silkolene pro race), bit more expensive at just over £50 for 5ltrs but it's well recomended and should be much better than some of the cheaper £30-£40 oils

the best engine cleaner is called something like BGK44, can only help the engine

[159john]

You could use some sort of engine cleaner, it may just clean out the oilways just incase they may be partially blocked, I always use quality oil like fuchs titan pro race s (previously silkolene pro race), bit more expensive at just over £50 for 5ltrs but it's well recomended and should be much better than some of the cheaper £30-£40 oils

the best engine cleaner is called something like BGK44, can only help the engine

Thanks for the recommendation - I think I'll run some BGK44 through; as you say it can only help. I've just done an internet search for it and found it's a fuel additive (rather than an oil additive); that is what you're talking about presumably?

[159john]

Just out of interest; I've just read the Toyota Service Bulletin regarding this design fault, and note that Dealers were authorised to replace the engine of affected cars with a new 'short engine' (with warranty extended to 7 years). Does anyone know how I can identify whether my car has already had a new short engine?

[armoredfist2002]

Not many ways of checking.

Any paperwork with the car to say it had been done?

Could check with toyota dealer should be on the computer if it has been done.

I'm sure once it was done by toyota they supplied a new dipstick with new markings as either 500ml or 1ltr extra of oil was put in once engine was sorted but i'm not sure.

As for bgk44 all I know is it comes very highly recommended, as for fuel or oil additive I wasn't sure, but will still give your engine a good clean.

You can try seafoam

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seafoam-Injector-Cleaner-Engine-System-Carbon-Cleaner-/221039177165?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3376f62dcd

Can be added in the fuel tank, in the oil or into the intake manifold

There is a youtube video specifically for seafoaming the celica, this may be your better bet

[159john]

Not many ways of checking.

Any paperwork with the car to say it had been done?

Could check with toyota dealer should be on the computer if it has been done.

I'm sure once it was done by toyota they supplied a new dipstick with new markings as either 500ml or 1ltr extra of oil was put in once engine was sorted but i'm not sure.

As for bgk44 all I know is it comes very highly recommended, as for fuel or oil additive I wasn't sure, but will still give your engine a good clean.

You can try seafoam

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3376f62dcd

Can be added in the fuel tank, in the oil or into the intake manifold

There is a youtube video specifically for seafoaming the celica, this may be your better bet

Thanks - I've seen other posts on here mentioning Seafoam so maybe I'll give that a go instead of BGK44; it certainly seems to clear a lot of muck out judging by the exhaust smoke on the YouTube clips. I notice on the YouTube clips that they recommend changing the oil after 100 miles of adding it to the sump; whereas on the SeaFoam website it says it can be left in the sump until the next oil change. I must admit I prefer the latter option as it must surely help to keep the oil-lines clean, but am a bit concerned that some people consider that diluting the oil by having this in it may be a problem. Has anyone on here left it in their oil until the next oil change (my car has pretty fresh oil in it at the moment)?

[armoredfist2002]

If your not having any trouble at the moment wait until your nearer your next oil change, run it in the car for around 2-4 weeks then get your oil changed.

I don't know if having it in the oil will dilute the oil or not, so if you have it in the engine for a few weeks it's better than having it in there for 6 months or more

[159john]

If your not having any trouble at the moment wait until your nearer your next oil change, run it in the car for around 2-4 weeks then get your oil changed.

I don't know if having it in the oil will dilute the oil or not, so if you have it in the engine for a few weeks it's better than having it in there for 6 months or more

Fair comment. I must admit, having done a lot of research on Seafoam yesterday, I'm now dubious about using it. Lots of people say that it can dislodge lumps of crud that can then block the oilways. Strikes me that I could end up causing the problem I'm trying to prevent! I had some Millers one shot sitting in the garage which I added to the fuel tank yesterday. The result was amazing, the engine is much less coubik at high revs now. I'm not sure whether these engines are always a bit coubik at high revs (I know there's little sound deadening), but I may use a fuel additive or 'super fuels' from now on as the car definitely seems to benefit from that over the normal supermarket fuel I tend to use.

[armoredfist2002]

Try a tank of vpower every month or two, I only use bp 95ron in mine, won't use supermarket fuel, haven't put 97 in for a long time since the fuel prices shot up ages ago.

Shell garage is too far away to use, and I don't even know if they have 99ron vpower.

Don't know if you have or not but try changing your spark plugs, won't do anyhting for cleaning your engine, you may notice a little more from your engine, especially if they are 11 years old.

[159john]

Try a tank of vpower every month or two, I only use bp 95ron in mine, won't use supermarket fuel, haven't put 97 in for a long time since the fuel prices shot up ages ago.

Shell garage is too far away to use, and I don't even know if they have 99ron vpower.

Don't know if you have or not but try changing your spark plugs, won't do anyhting for cleaning your engine, you may notice a little more from your engine, especially if they are 11 years old.

I haven't checked the spark plugs yet but I doubt they'll be the originals because the engine runs faultlessly (with the Millers in the tank) - free revving and certainly seems to have retained all it's 140 horses. Without the Millers it still revs freely enough, it just feeds some vibration into the cabin from 4,500 up. Tick-over is rock steady at 700 too. The engine does seem to be in excellent condition at the moment - I just want to make sure it stays that way!

I must admit I'm a big fan of Miller additives - ever since using it in a diesel Vectra that smoked appallingly under load, until I started using it. The Millers petrol additive does raise the octane number by 2 or 3 as well as having the detergents, so my feeling has always been that it's much the same as using a super fuel - except it works out cheaper!