Cyclists On Zebra Crossings.

[timberwolf]

It is mostly residential, and the "pavements" vary from paths no where near the roads as they meander(spelling?) between the houses or woods, and the ones next to the roads are usually separated from the road by narrow strips of grass.

As to how they are marked, sometimes there are round signs with a bicycle and pedestrian stick figure. In some places, there are give way lines and signs advising cyclists that they are leaving the areas where they are permitted to cycle on the "pavement".

[Sagitar]

It is mostly residential, and the "pavements" vary from paths no where near the roads as they meander(spelling?) between the houses or woods, and the ones next to the roads are usually separated from the road by narrow strips of grass.

As to how they are marked, sometimes there are round signs with a bicycle and pedestrian stick figure. In some places, there are give way lines and signs advising cyclists that they are leaving the areas where they are permitted to cycle on the "pavement".

It is mostly residential, and the "pavements" vary from paths no where near the roads as they meander(spelling?) between the houses or woods, and the ones next to the roads are usually separated from the road by narrow strips of grass.

As to how they are marked, sometimes there are round signs with a bicycle and pedestrian stick figure. In some places, there are give way lines and signs advising cyclists that they are leaving the areas where they are permitted to cycle on the "pavement".

Thanks, I understand. As I said earlier you really have to look up the laws quoted in support of the Highway Code in order to get the definition of "pavement" as it is used in the Code. From your description, I suspect that the routes would be defined as tracks rather than pavements, so they wouldn't cause any conflict with the wording of the Code. But I can see how individual might get confused by them.

One of the tracks that I walk regularly is very old, but at one point a new housing estate has been built across it. The track is clear for the most part and I assume that the builders of the estate were required to keep it open. Mostly it runs in space at the bottom of gardens and is enclosed between garden fences, but in a couple of places it runs out onto a pavement in an open area around which is a cluster of houses with access roads and pavements. It never gives me a problem, because I am on foot, but I see bike riders occasionally and they must have difficulty in deciding whether to continue the short distance along the pavement to the point where the track restarts or to go onto the road. It is a very quiet area and I don't suppose it matters much, but there is certainly room for confusion.

There is a new Center Parcs being built near us and part of the deal for the acquisition of the land was to carry out some road reconstruction. As part of this they have created an excellent cycle track to take their visitors towards our little town. It ends about a mile from the town centre at a pavement beside a relatively quiet road that is almost always lined with parked cars. It is going to be interesting to see whether the intrepid cyclist from Center Parcs get into the road at this point or carry on along the pavement.

We have wandered a long way from the intention of the Highway Code, which is I believe to separate cyclists from pedestrians in places where it matters. A few days ago I saw an old gentleman in collision with a cyclist as he stepped away from the bus that brought him into the market town where we shop. The cyclist was adamant that it was the old boy's fault because he wasn't looking where he was going. When I spoke to the cyclist it became clear that he was on the pavement because, it being a one-way street, he could not go in the direction he required on the road. It would have required him to go all the way round the block to get to where he wanted to be. He claimed to have no idea that what he was doing was illegal and in spite of my assurances that it was, he re-mounted his bike and rode away along the pavement, still shouting over his shoulder about the stupidity of old people. I doubt we can ever legislate for people like him and the fixed penalty that policemen can dish out was made for this occasion if only there was a policeman around. It wouldn't be fair to finish without saying that I see very few cycles being ridden on pavements in our market town. A lot of people bike into town and the cycle racks are full. People pushing bikes are a common sight in the pedestrianised town centre but they don't generally ride them.

[stompe]

Hiya

This makes chilling reading to me http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/cycling/facts-figures.aspx and in my opinion it is due to these people not taking a test and just pure and utter no regard for others on the road. If you get hit by one of these in your car, why should we lose our excess for damage they have caused. In my opinion they should be compulsory insurance for bikes and carry some form of registration like a car. Some of these bikes can get up to quite high speeds and on pavements. They should be made to cycle in the lanes provided, not on the roads at all. I will concede that some cyclists are considerate on the roads but where I live and commute these are very few and far between. Just a thought would you be happy for your kids to cycle on today's roads?

Stompe

[Joseph D]

As has been mentioned in previous posts in relation to following the road code, there is as much fault with motor vehicle drivers as with cyclists, so it is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

But rather than argue about who is worse than the other, Britons should accept that roadways and footways are inadequate and dare I say it, in some cases not fit for purpose. It would be ideal if there were adequate footways, separate cycleways and decent roadways. However, listen for the hue and cry from that "other crowd" when roading improvements are mooted. I don't believe we will ever achieve transport nirvana.

Given that, I notice that many more motorists pay scant regard to the road code than cyclists, and if you have ever cycled on England's roads you will know that feeling of taking your life into your own hands. It is a quaint notion to say that if a roadway is too dangerous to cycle, then dismount and walk on the footway (sometimes there are none!), but you would get nowhere fast and just end up frustrated. I don't condone the thoughtless louts that scream along footways with no consideration for pedestrians, for myself I always act as if a guest in another's home, so as to speak, if I ride on a footway.

I just feel that some motor vehicle drivers need to get off their high horse and afford due respect to all other road users. Cyclists have as much right to use the roadway as any other road user. If all motor vehicle drivers (private cars, HGVs, taxis, buses) would treat cyclist with respect, and they felt safe on the road, then perhaps there would be fewer that feel the need to use the footways.

Anyway rant over - just trying to give voice to the other side of the coin.

[Joseph D]

This makes chilling reading to me http://www.rospa.com...ts-figures.aspx and in my opinion it is due to these people not taking a test and just pure and utter no regard for others on the road. If you get hit by one of these in your car, why should we lose our excess for damage they have caused. In my opinion they should be compulsory insurance for bikes and carry some form of registration like a car. Some of these bikes can get up to quite high speeds and on pavements. They should be made to cycle in the lanes provided, not on the roads at all. I will concede that some cyclists are considerate on the roads but where I live and commute these are very few and far between. Just a thought would you be happy for your kids to cycle on today's roads?

I read that report, but as a cyclist and a driver I came to a completely different interpretation of these statistics.

I believe what these statistics show is that Britain's roads are completely inadequate for a motor vehicle/cyclist mix.

I, personally, would never attempt to ride a cycle around a roundabout (excluding mini ones) - it is just too much like russian roulette - and would seek an alternative route, which might be riding the footway.

I believe you are on the right track with cycleways for cyclists, but they need to be totally segregated from pedestrian footways and not those jokes where a footway has a line painted down the centre. These lines are invisible to the pedestrian who wander all over the cycle part. Your job is to see to it that proper segregated cycleways are provided on all roadways in all jurisdictions. I, and many other cyclist, would thank you. :D

[timberwolf]

Hiya

This makes chilling reading to me http://www.rospa.com...ts-figures.aspx and in my opinion it is due to these people not taking a test and just pure and utter no regard for others on the road.<snip>

If you look at 2011 statistics for road casualties, http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/releases/reported-road-casualties-gb-main-results-2011/ the cyclists have the lowest number (107 deaths although there was a big increase in the serious injuries reported) compared with pedestrians (453 deaths), motorcyclists (362 deaths) and car occupants (883 deaths).

Unfortunately, raw numbers like this don't tell the whole story because for example we don't know out of how many for each mode of transport.

I thought it was quite surprising rather than shocking that the road death toll wasn't a lot higher, given the general standards of driving, skill (or lack of), manners, impatience, etc.

[Opifex]

........ I always act as if a guest in another's home, so as to speak, if I ride on a footway.

I just feel that some motor vehicle drivers need to get off their high horse and afford due respect to all other road users. Cyclists have as much right to use the roadway as any other road user. If all motor vehicle drivers (private cars, HGVs, taxis, buses) would treat cyclist with respect, and they felt safe on the road, then perhaps there would be fewer that feel the need to use the footways.......

Excellent philosophy!

.........I believe you are on the right track with cycleways for cyclists, but they need to be totally segregated from pedestrian footways and not those jokes where a footway has a line painted down the centre. These lines are invisible to the pedestrian who wander all over the cycle part. Your job is to see to it that proper segregated cycleways are provided on all roadways in all jurisdictions. I, and many other cyclist, would thank you.

Are you going to be the first to give up your garden to provide the space and be charged extra tax to pay for it?

........I thought it was quite surprising rather than shocking that the road death toll wasn't a lot higher, given the general standards of driving, skill (or lack of), manners, impatience, etc. ........

This is the real key. A few years ago I took the IAM advanced driver test. The preparation for that and a 90 minute test with a police driver sitting next to me has made a permanent improvement to my driving abilities, attitudes, and respect for speed limits. I would recommend everyone to try it.

I have read in the last few years of a number of successful experiments where all barriers separating pedestrians, cyclists and motorists have been removed. This is a picture I took yesterday morning of unplanned mixed use in the main road through our town.

Everyone gave way to everyone else, nobody got angry, and not a policeman in site - and you even got idiots standing in the middle of the road taking photographs of it.

Incidentally, cyclists don't jump red lights here. The town doesn't have any traffic lights at all.

[Joseph D]

.........I believe you are on the right track with cycleways for cyclists, but they need to be totally segregated from pedestrian footways and not those jokes where a footway has a line painted down the centre. These lines are invisible to the pedestrian who wander all over the cycle part. Your job is to see to it that proper segregated cycleways are provided on all roadways in all jurisdictions. I, and many other cyclist, would thank you.

Are you going to be the first to give up your garden to provide the space and be charged extra tax to pay for it?

This what I was driving at, in my comment about it probably not being possible to achieve due to the lack of space.

In regard to having a totally mixed road, that may work in villages where speeds are low (10mph/15km/h), but on inter-city type roads where speeds are 40 - 70 mph (65 - 110 km/h) having segregation would be imperative, I would think.

[Opifex]

In regard to having a totally mixed road, that may work in villages where speeds are low (10mph/15km/h), but on inter-city type roads where speeds are 40 - 70 mph (65 - 110 km/h) having segregation would be imperative, I would think.

Agreed, but the thread is headed "Cyclists on Zebra Crossings" which would only happen in towns.

I can't find any up to date analysis of traffic speeds in London but the figure quoted by some pressure groups in 2006 was 10mph.

[pete&valsprius]

As a very new member of this forum I might be excused for thinking I had strayed onto the letters page of the "Daily Wail", with the angry tirade against cyclists having the temerity to venture on to our over crowded and at times dangerous roads. As a very experienced cyclist, largwely leisure, these days, may i make a few observations.

Whilst not condoning law breaking of any kind whether pavement riding or parking, lights jumping by bikes or cars, which is endemic where I live and of course speeding, may I make a few points.

Having recently driven in Canada, modern Automatic and largish carsa and Belgium, driving an oldish MGB Roadster, the contrast could hardly be greater. Relaxed and pleasant in Canada and frankly, at times terrifying in Belgium. Even allowing for the very different driving styles in North America compared to Europe, I wonder if the overcrowding on both Belgian and British roads, leads to an attitude of selfish and aggressive driving. Even in vancouver a large and modern city driving manners are civilised and even in rush hours, where long delays are routine, crossing the many bridges, road manners are impeccable, with drivers alternating where lanes merge, with none of the pushing and shoving, that so often occurs here. In both countries, where journeys by bike are more prevalent than here, Pedestrians, cyclists and motorists, seem to co-exist, more or less amicablybut then there is far greater provision for bikes and indeed pedestrians, so conflict is minimised. Bikes get there turn at traffic lights as do pedestrians and jay walking and light running are not tolerated by the law. As road use is seen to be fair to all, there is less reason for conflict.

Some points from previous posts. There is no such thing as road tax, as this was abolished in 1936, by wise old Winston Churchill, as he didn't want motorists thinking they owned the roads, so we have Vehicle Excise Duty, and most roads are built and maintained, from general taxation, in the same way dutyon,

alcohol and cigarettes, do not pay for breweries or cigarette factories. There are now more than 2m cars on the road, that are

zero rated for VED, so the old tax argument about bikes, does not stand up at all. Perhaps bike journeys should be subsidised as their CO2 emmisions in building are minimal, compared to the greenest car and zero in the riding.

Regarding pavement riding, I agree that it should be discouraged, though it is understandable on the modern roads, where some motorists behave so badly in giving so little passing space though it was established in law, that bikes should be presumed to wobble, and should be given at least 6 feet of space, and that immediately cutting in as though the bike isn't moving at all, is all too frequent.

Finally, lets show a little more tolerence to other road users and look at more road and pavement sharing to maximise the available space.

I admit I was very surprised to see so much vitriol against cyclists from Prius drivers, who with their Gliding up to lights etc, must present a "right On" holier than thou, green credentials image, to the more Petrol Head" driver and although I have not changes my fairly brisk, though not fast driving style, have noticed motorists more eager to get past me, lest i hold them up, though I'm usually ahead of the pack at the lights.

Thank you for your indulgence to those who have reached the end of this lengthy post .

[Madasafish]

I treat cyclists with the same concern and consideration as other road users: they may be sane, nutters or suicidal.

I just give a wide berth.

Life is too short to worry about other people's foibles...

(PS: nothing wrong with the Wail: makes great firelighters.)

[Bos]

As a very new member of this forum I might be excused for thinking I had strayed onto the letters page of the "Daily Wail", with the angry tirade against cyclists having the temerity to venture on to our over crowded and at times dangerous roads. As a very experienced cyclist, largwely leisure, these days, may i make a few observations.

Whilst not condoning law breaking of any kind whether pavement riding or parking, lights jumping by bikes or cars, which is endemic where I live and of course speeding, may I make a few points.

Having recently driven in Canada, modern Automatic and largish carsa and Belgium, driving an oldish MGB Roadster, the contrast could hardly be greater. Relaxed and pleasant in Canada and frankly, at times terrifying in Belgium. Even allowing for the very different driving styles in North America compared to Europe, I wonder if the overcrowding on both Belgian and British roads, leads to an attitude of selfish and aggressive driving. Even in vancouver a large and modern city driving manners are civilised and even in rush hours, where long delays are routine, crossing the many bridges, road manners are impeccable, with drivers alternating where lanes merge, with none of the pushing and shoving, that so often occurs here. In both countries, where journeys by bike are more prevalent than here, Pedestrians, cyclists and motorists, seem to co-exist, more or less amicablybut then there is far greater provision for bikes and indeed pedestrians, so conflict is minimised. Bikes get there turn at traffic lights as do pedestrians and jay walking and light running are not tolerated by the law. As road use is seen to be fair to all, there is less reason for conflict.

Some points from previous posts. There is no such thing as road tax, as this was abolished in 1936, by wise old Winston Churchill, as he didn't want motorists thinking they owned the roads, so we have Vehicle Excise Duty, and most roads are built and maintained, from general taxation, in the same way dutyon,

alcohol and cigarettes, do not pay for breweries or cigarette factories. There are now more than 2m cars on the road, that are

zero rated for VED, so the old tax argument about bikes, does not stand up at all. Perhaps bike journeys should be subsidised as their CO2 emmisions in building are minimal, compared to the greenest car and zero in the riding.

Regarding pavement riding, I agree that it should be discouraged, though it is understandable on the modern roads, where some motorists behave so badly in giving so little passing space though it was established in law, that bikes should be presumed to wobble, and should be given at least 6 feet of space, and that immediately cutting in as though the bike isn't moving at all, is all too frequent.

Finally, lets show a little more tolerence to other road users and look at more road and pavement sharing to maximise the available space.

I admit I was very surprised to see so much vitriol against cyclists from Prius drivers, who with their Gliding up to lights etc, must present a "right On" holier than thou, green credentials image, to the more Petrol Head" driver and although I have not changes my fairly brisk, though not fast driving style, have noticed motorists more eager to get past me, lest i hold them up, though I'm usually ahead of the pack at the lights.

Thank you for your indulgence to those who have reached the end of this lengthy post .

+1

[timberwolf]

<snip>

Having recently driven in Canada, modern Automatic and largish carsa and Belgium, driving an oldish MGB Roadster, the contrast could hardly be greater. Relaxed and pleasant in Canada and frankly, at times terrifying in Belgium. Even allowing for the very different driving styles in North America compared to Europe, I wonder if the overcrowding on both Belgian and British roads, leads to an attitude of selfish and aggressive driving. Even in vancouver a large and modern city driving manners are civilised and even in rush hours, where long delays are routine, crossing the many bridges, road manners are impeccable, with drivers alternating where lanes merge, with none of the pushing and shoving, that so often occurs here. In both countries, where journeys by bike are more prevalent than here, Pedestrians, cyclists and motorists, seem to co-exist, more or less amicablybut then there is far greater provision for bikes and indeed pedestrians, so conflict is minimised. Bikes get there turn at traffic lights as do pedestrians and jay walking and light running are not tolerated by the law. As road use is seen to be fair to all, there is less reason for conflict.

<snip>

I admit I was very surprised to see so much vitriol against cyclists from Prius drivers, who with their Gliding up to lights etc, must present a "right On" holier than thou, green credentials image, to the more Petrol Head" driver and although I have not changes my fairly brisk, though not fast driving style, have noticed motorists more eager to get past me, lest i hold them up, though I'm usually ahead of the pack at the lights.

Thank you for your indulgence to those who have reached the end of this lengthy post.

Welcome.

Sorry to disappoint you, the green tree hugging thing is rarely mentioned by members. I thought it ironic that you finish with such a sweeping generalisation and start by calling us all Daily Mail readers - I think you'll fit in well, LOL.

The statistics tell a somewhat different story for road deaths in Canada. The population in the UK is approx 65,000,000 and for Canada approx 35,000,000. In 2009, the latest figures that I could find for Canada, there were 2209 deaths caused due to motor vehicle accidents. In the UK, there were 2222 deaths for all road users. Given that Canada's population is roughly half the size of the UK, I would have thought the number of deaths caused by motor vehicles* would be lower?

For cyclists, Canada does a little better but not by much when we remember the size of the population and that cycling is for most areas of Canada restricted to the summer months, Canada 41 deaths compared to the UK 104 deaths for 2009.

*A nicer way of saying caused by people driving motor vehicles?

References:

http://www.dft.gov.u...ables/ras30001/

http://www.tc.gc.ca/...2-2009-1173.htm

[Yolina]

I treat cyclists with the same concern and consideration as other road users: they may be sane, nutters or suicidal.

I just give a wide berth.

^^that^^

What irks me is people who don't pay attention to what's around them (or simply don't care)... Mode of transport is irrelevant! Though I have to say that since the Boris bikes have appeared in my part of London, there's been a marked increase in casual cyclists, some of them *really* haven't got a clue and shouldn't be on the road without some sort of training IMHO

[pete&valsprius]

Thanks for the welcome to me as a new member. I confess I was being provocative in gingering up a thread, which was probably running out of steam and probably should have been dropped.

However, I was genuinly incensed by some of the anti bike sentiment, so often expressed in the popular press, Olympic success not withstanding and a complete lack of understanding of the problems of other roadusers, which of course are shared by us all. Having ridden bikes since my youth, including competitively for some years, motorbikes, cars, including classic cars, I have a little perspective on life on Britains Roads. I firmly beleive that before obtaining a full driving license, some experience on two wheels, whether power or pedal, would be an asset and i back this up by a senior police driving instructor from the police driving School at Hendonl, asking me if I had been a motorcyclists as he had noted my observation of road surfaces and general observation, whilst taking the Advanced driving test before becoming a member of the IAM. Wouldn't deny that the two wheel fraternity has its fair share of anti social and dangerous people, including some new and born again bikers and some of the posers who have joined the fashionable "get fit on a £5000 bike brigade" Will probably become defensive cyclists, if they live long enough.

Sorry if I have come across as an "Holier Than Thou" person as i have certainly done some pretty stupid things in my time but I liked the comment about treating other users as potentially dangerous and treat all road users with respect and discretion.

Thats all from me, you'll probably be glad to hear !!

[Opifex]

Please let me have a quick anti-cyclist moan to complain about cyclists who pull out to pass cars without looking if anything is behind them and those who ride around without lights. Feel better for that, thank you.

Just to get even further off topic here's a little anti-invalid carriage story. I recently came up behind a buggie driven by a young mother with a girl standing on the platform in front of her. We carried on for a little way and I then found out that the girl wasn't just getting a lift she was in fact the assistant driver. When the woman wanted to turn across oncoming traffic the girl gave a hand signal and off they went. :)

[Dacre]

Please let me have a quick anti-cyclist moan to complain about cyclists who pull out to pass cars without looking if anything is behind them and those who ride around without lights. Feel better for that, thank you.

Just to get even further off topic here's a little anti-invalid carriage story. I recently came up behind a buggie driven by a young mother with a girl standing on the platform in front of her. We carried on for a little way and I then found out that the girl wasn't just getting a lift she was in fact the assistant driver. When the woman wanted to turn across oncoming traffic the girl gave a hand signal and off they went. :)

But did either of them look behind them or did they just pullout? :)

[Colin321]

You think cyclists are bad..........

Way, way back in Edward Heath's time, I was driving in South London. It was pitch dark: we were in the middle of those major strikes, rolling power blackouts, the lot. No street lights. I suddenly discovered myself on top of a pedestrian crossing, with a large dark shape moving across it, and had to slam on my brakes: with the resultant collision behind. It was a black horse with a rider wearing dark clothes...

[Terry953]


You think cyclists are bad..........

Way, way back in Edward Heath's time, I was driving in South London. It was pitch dark: we were in the middle of those major strikes, rolling power blackouts, the lot. No street lights. I suddenly discovered myself on top of a pedestrian crossing, with a large dark shape moving across it, and had to slam on my brakes: with the resultant collision behind. It was a black horse with a rider wearing dark clothes...


Well Spotted Colin321,

Remember that era mainly for the lack the of petrol - humping jerry cans around in the boot to maintain mobility.

I think the issue here is, it's a good job you weren't sporting the current Winter Tyres 'Con' - or you would have ended up with an even smaller boot .

Let's have a comment from a responsible road going horse rider on this post ??

Any horsey advise about enhanced current equine retardation techniques to match our motoring efforts on this issue would be welcome.

[Red Yaris 54]


You think cyclists are bad..........

Way, way back in Edward Heath's time, I was driving in South London. It was pitch dark: we were in the middle of those major strikes, rolling power blackouts, the lot. No street lights. I suddenly discovered myself on top of a pedestrian crossing, with a large dark shape moving across it, and had to slam on my brakes: with the resultant collision behind. It was a black horse with a rider wearing dark clothes...


Well Spotted Colin321,

Remember that era mainly for the lack the of petrol - humping jerry cans around in the boot to maintain mobility.

I think the issue here is, it's a good job you weren't sporting the current Winter Tyres 'Con' - or you would have ended up with an even smaller boot .

Let's have a comment from a responsible road going horse rider on this post ??

Any horsey advise about enhanced current equine retardation techniques to match our motoring efforts on this issue would be welcome.

Now let us try to keep this topic "On Topic"..........CYCLISTS on Zebra Crossings :)

[johalareewi]

I think the issue here is, it's a good job you weren't sporting the current Winter Tyres 'Con' - or you would have ended up with an even smaller boot .

[wass]

Cyclists crossing on a zebra crossing? Yetserday, one indignant gentleman tried to tell me that I should give way to mounted cyclists on zebra crossings. The chap seemed to be somewhat surprised to find that the only time any road user including cyclists need to give way at zebra crossings is when a pedestrian is crossing. I found this to be a little surprising since I had always imagined that wheelchair users and persons in prams and push chairs 'count' as pedestrians but I couldnt find anything on the net which confirmed this.