Cylinder Head Issue - Why Do You Need A New Short Motor?

[tubaman]

Anyone know why you get a new short motor with the cylinder head issue rather than simply replacing the head gasket ?

I'm guessing its more cost effective for Toyota than re-building the old engine or is something else involved ?

[Heidfirst]

there can be damage to the block & head from "gasket shuffle" according to a TLT that posts here under username Ormi.

[Devon Aygo]

The ultimate cause of the head gasket failure was found to be "carbon stamping" also the Super long life coolant used could damage the head gasket itself.

Carbon from excessive oil consumption ( poor piston ring design ) builds up around the piston crown and as it grows it hits into the cylinder head/head gasket causing the gasket to "shuffle" this causes head gasket failure and coolant loss and also wears away the faces of the block & head meaning a new gasket will quickly fail, also the design of the engine does not allow for the block or head to be skimmed so if damaged a new block / head was needed. The time & cost involved in rebuilding engines is far higher than swapping a faulty unit with a fully modified re-manufactured short motor. When we where doing rebuilds the parts and labour cost could run any where between £3000 & £8000 taking between 20-30 hours to complete per car depending on engine type and repair level needed the re-manufactured engine bills rarely exceed £3000 and should take no more than 15 hours to complete so a massive saving in cost and reduction in time off the road.

Another factor was different dealers taking different and sometimes incorrect repair methods to fixing the issues often causing further issues later on so swapping an engine totally simplifies the whole process and ensures customers get the correct repair first time and hopefully without further issue.

Devon

[Mistermena]

The ultimate cause of the head gasket failure was found to be "carbon stamping" also the Super long life coolant used could damage the head gasket itself.

Carbon from excessive oil consumption ( poor piston ring design ) builds up around the piston crown and as it grows it hits into the cylinder head/head gasket causing the gasket to "shuffle" this causes head gasket failure and coolant loss and also wears away the faces of the block & head meaning a new gasket will quickly fail, also the design of the engine does not allow for the block or head to be skimmed so if damaged a new block / head was needed. The time & cost involved in rebuilding engines is far higher than swapping a faulty unit with a fully modified re-manufactured short motor. When we where doing rebuilds the parts and labour cost could run any where between £3000 & £8000 taking between 20-30 hours to complete per car depending on engine type and repair level needed the re-manufactured engine bills rarely exceed £3000 and should take no more than 15 hours to complete so a massive saving in cost and reduction in time off the road.

Another factor was different dealers taking different and sometimes incorrect repair methods to fixing the issues often causing further issues later on so swapping an engine totally simplifies the whole process and ensures customers get the correct repair first time and hopefully without further issue.

Devon

Fantastic explanation from a man in the Know!

[Ave Jo]

I have 07 plate T180 estate with 58k miles and a cpl of months ago I noticed my engine fan was was staying on for approx 15 secs after the car had been switched off. It had never done this before and the eng temp gauge was showing ok.... I lifted the hood and noticed a few white specs on the engine cover.

I contacted my local dealer in Bolton and informed them and took it down a cpl days later. They did a pressure check on it and came back saying that the head gasket was faulty, it was a known problem on the D4D engine and would need a rebuild.

A couple of days later I received a call from the dealers saying that a rebuild would not be the correct course of action and that they would need the car for ten days as a new engine was on order and was going in.. Whilst they had the engine out I opted for a new clutch with no labour being charged and I only paid the cost of the part. ( A new clutchwith labour costs 1k plus on an Avensis) Toyota told me that the new engine was 6k + which was all done on an warranty.

Apparently the fault with the 2.2 D4D engine is the fact it was sourced from Poland and it cracks.. The same engine is in the Lexus IS220 and they have a forum on it. Toyota extended the warranty on engines so that if the problem with head manifested they would fix it..

Hope this helps.

[Parts-King]

Apparently the fault with the 2.2 D4D engine is the fact it was sourced from Poland and it cracks..

It was not the fact it was made in Poland that was the problem. Poland supply massive amounts of diesel engines for Toyota, Deeside in the UK produce many petrol versions. The issue was that described above, coolant and head gasket "shuffle"

Kingo

[tubaman]

Thanks guys for your replies - very illuminating

[Hayseed]

I have found the postings on this topic very helpful and I'm very grateful to the many and various informed contributors.

A few questions ome to mind:

1. If there is, or was a problem with the coolant, should it be changed to a different type?

Or will this have been done in the normal services by main dealers?

2. Was there a year when Mr T accepted that there was a problem with the coolant and have they more recently used less aggressive coolants? (in other words do owners of cars after say 200X not have to worry about this?)

3. Is there anything that owners can do to reduce the carbon build up issue - for example by changing engine oil more frequently? Or by using a different grade/type of oil?

[tubaman]

Good questions, anyone help ?

[Devon Aygo]

I have found the postings on this topic very helpful and I'm very grateful to the many and various informed contributors.

A few questions ome to mind:

1. If there is, or was a problem with the coolant, should it be changed to a different type?

Or will this have been done in the normal services by main dealers?

2. Was there a year when Mr T accepted that there was a problem with the coolant and have they more recently used less aggressive coolants? (in other words do owners of cars after say 200X not have to worry about this?)

3. Is there anything that owners can do to reduce the carbon build up issue - for example by changing engine oil more frequently? Or by using a different grade/type of oil?

1 & 2. The coolant was not changed as it was correct, in late 2007 the head gasket material was changed as it was at fault not the coolant. In term of head gasket failure the coolant issue is quite rare, head gaskets mostly fail due to carbon stamping caused by oil consumption "shuffling" the head gasket.

3. To assist in reducing carbon build up:

* If you are burning more than 0.5lt / 621 miles of oil or loosing coolant with out a leak and your car is within the 7 year/111946 mile warranty extension then report it to your Toyota dealer, you need a replacement engine.

Otherwise:

* Ensure the car is serviced every 10,000 miles

* Drive the car hard "Italian tune up" from time to time

* Using a 0W30 or 5W30 diesel oil meeting C2 "low ash" specification can help on non DPF / DPNR engines and essential on cars with them fitted.

* Having your Engine ECU software updated to the latest specification by your Toyota dealer this updates lots of glitches e,g poor injector operation, poor EGR operation and poor SCV operation.

Devon

[Hayseed]

Great, Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply.

I had guessed it might be worth giving them a good blast every now and again to help clear carbon.

Cheers

[t-spiritpete]

Great info once again from Devon!

Just one small point ... wasn't there also a modification to the crankshaft big end and main bearing shells along with all the other mods?

Pete.

[Mistermena]

I have found the postings on this topic very helpful and I'm very grateful to the many and various informed contributors.

A few questions ome to mind:

1. If there is, or was a problem with the coolant, should it be changed to a different type?

Or will this have been done in the normal services by main dealers?

2. Was there a year when Mr T accepted that there was a problem with the coolant and have they more recently used less aggressive coolants? (in other words do owners of cars after say 200X not have to worry about this?)

3. Is there anything that owners can do to reduce the carbon build up issue - for example by changing engine oil more frequently? Or by using a different grade/type of oil?

1 & 2. The coolant was not changed as it was correct, in late 2007 the head gasket material was changed as it was at fault not the coolant. In term of head gasket failure the coolant issue is quite rare, head gaskets mostly fail due to carbon stamping caused by oil consumption "shuffling" the head gasket.

3. To assist in reducing carbon build up:

* If you are burning more than 0.5lt / 621 miles of oil or loosing coolant with out a leak and your car is within the 7 year/111946 mile warranty extension then report it to your Toyota dealer, you need a replacement engine.

Otherwise:

* Ensure the car is serviced every 10,000 miles

* Drive the car hard "Italian tune up" from time to time

* Using a 0W30 or 5W30 diesel oil meeting C2 "low ash" specification can help on non DPF / DPNR engines and essential on cars with them fitted.

* Having your Engine ECU software updated to the latest specification by your Toyota dealer this updates lots of glitches e,g poor injector operation, poor EGR operation and poor SCV operation.

Devon

Great info from Devon again

How would I be able to tell if my car has had the latest ECU updates? Is there a sticker somwhere saying its been updated or is it a case of calling a dealer? If it's not what is the cost implications (If any) of it please? Also I wasn't aware that a 0w-30 spec oil could be used! I've always used Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 (C2, VW 507 00 spec[VW top spec oil untill 508 00 comes in]) oil and now found that Shell Helix Ultra Extra (5w-30) is also a low ash C2, VW 507 00 spec (With similar TBN,VI number as ESP) oil also. Can a C1 spec oil be used with an even lower ash content to help maintain the DPRN system ect? Or is the TBN number to low so increased engine wear would happen?

Cheers

Taff

[Mistermena]

Double post!... Oops

[Devon Aygo]

Great info once again from Devon!

Just one small point ... wasn't there also a modification to the crankshaft big end and main bearing shells along with all the other mods?

Pete.

No modification but back when the engines where being rebuilt the big end and main bearings where replaced as part of the reassembly.

Devon

[Devon Aygo]

I have found the postings on this topic very helpful and I'm very grateful to the many and various informed contributors.

A few questions ome to mind:

1. If there is, or was a problem with the coolant, should it be changed to a different type?

Or will this have been done in the normal services by main dealers?

2. Was there a year when Mr T accepted that there was a problem with the coolant and have they more recently used less aggressive coolants? (in other words do owners of cars after say 200X not have to worry about this?)

3. Is there anything that owners can do to reduce the carbon build up issue - for example by changing engine oil more frequently? Or by using a different grade/type of oil?

1 & 2. The coolant was not changed as it was correct, in late 2007 the head gasket material was changed as it was at fault not the coolant. In term of head gasket failure the coolant issue is quite rare, head gaskets mostly fail due to carbon stamping caused by oil consumption "shuffling" the head gasket.

3. To assist in reducing carbon build up:

* If you are burning more than 0.5lt / 621 miles of oil or loosing coolant with out a leak and your car is within the 7 year/111946 mile warranty extension then report it to your Toyota dealer, you need a replacement engine.

Otherwise:

* Ensure the car is serviced every 10,000 miles

* Drive the car hard "Italian tune up" from time to time

* Using a 0W30 or 5W30 diesel oil meeting C2 "low ash" specification can help on non DPF / DPNR engines and essential on cars with them fitted.

* Having your Engine ECU software updated to the latest specification by your Toyota dealer this updates lots of glitches e,g poor injector operation, poor EGR operation and poor SCV operation.

Devon

Great info from Devon again

How would I be able to tell if my car has had the latest ECU updates? Is there a sticker somwhere saying its been updated or is it a case of calling a dealer? If it's not what is the cost implications (If any) of it please? Also I wasn't aware that a 0w-30 spec oil could be used! I've always used Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 (C2, VW 507 00 spec[VW top spec oil untill 508 00 comes in]) oil and now found that Shell Helix Ultra Extra (5w-30) is also a low ash C2, VW 507 00 spec (With similar TBN,VI number as ESP) oil also. Can a C1 spec oil be used with an even lower ash content to help maintain the DPRN system ect? Or is the TBN number to low so increased engine wear would happen?

Cheers

Taff

The only way to tell what version of software your Avensis has installed is a trip to your dealers to plug it into their diagnostic equipment if needed they can then reflash the ECU at the same time, if they charge it sould be no more than 1/2 an hours labour charge

0W30 is the preferred grade for a T180, C1 should be fine as C2 is the minimum requirement which C1 exceeds how ever I am no oil expert so cannot be 100% on that.

Devon

[Mistermena]

Many thanks mate for the info regarding the ECU and the oil grades. I always wondered if a 0W-30 weight of oil could be used instead of a 5W winter grade.

Cheers

Taff