Intermittent Starting Issue - 2003 Rav4 Gx 5Dr 2.0 Vvti

[anchorman]

Don't do anything until you've looked. These HT leaks can be a !Removed! to find and if you cover the tracks you will shoot yourself in the foot. Look and listen tomorrow. You can sometimes hear arcing if it is bad enough.

[LeeADAB]

Morning Anchorman,

Last night I went into the forest to walk the dog and ran the car in pitch black and had a good look around the engine bay! This morning I started the car at 6.00am and at 8.30am - both times the car was covered in a layer of water/mist and it started perfectly. (you've got to love intermittent faults) On the 6am start my wife started it while i watched for arcing. Nothing.

I presume if it was an arcing issue then I would be able to see it in the pitch black?

I will have a good look at all the connections to the coils and starter tonight. if the engine isn't running i presume unplugging connetors and plugging them back in wouldn't cause any issues. Don't want an airbag to deploy etc.

Any other suggestions? Cheers, Lee

[anchorman]

You can sometimes see or hear arcing but it isn't guaranteed. You have to work with it now and start looking when it does it. You won't set off any airbags unless you fiddle with the wires to them - the worst you will do with the engine is get a 20,000v kick. I've had 100s but probabaly not good for weak hearts or pacemakers etc.

[LeeADAB]

Ok Thanks. I will check the earth connections first. After that I think i will have to check and waterproof with the silicone grease each connection one by one along with checking the wires. If i do one then leave it until it happens again, I can hopefully work at finding where the fault is.

It's a shame it doesn't happen every morning as that would make it much easier to test. I can't get someone every morning to turn over the car just in the chance it happens. Even then it flutters so quickly it's not like i can turn off the car and start it again to get the same fault.

I appreciate the help so far!!

[LeeADAB]

Today after it got dark I have been all over the engine while running with a water spray bottle. Every connector including the ignition coils and wires were coated section by section. No arcing or engine missing a beat.

Ground points to check tomorrow then I shall wait for it to flutter again before continuing.

[anchorman]

Good news although a pity we haven't identified the culprit.

[LeeADAB]

I may have the culprit? Tomorrow I am planning to check the connections on the starter. I emailed Scotty Kilmer in America after watching a few of his videos on YouTube. He says he will try to answer any car mechanic related questions for free. So i sent him the audio files and he replied to "replace the starter and pray its just that wearing out". I checked some ground connections yesterday and then today (wet) it fluttered again.

I then stopped and asked a breakdown mechanic who was working on a 4x4 in our road. As soon as he heard the sound he confidently said it was the starter. He said that over time it will get worse which may explain why it is happening more often. Also it works a lot harder in cold weather.

I still have a slight feeling that it may be damp connections to it or it would have happened when very cold but dry? Wouldn't it?

Although the car has only done 74k I do start it at least 4 times a day (as I come home for lunch!) ;) With evening dog walks I would say most days it gets started 6 times a day. At 10 years old this March it would have done well if it is that!

I will check connections tomorrow but also investigate the options on a replacement starter.

[IanXT4]

I book marked this site ages ago, might be worth trying

http://www.repairkitsuk.com/1.html

[LeeADAB]

Hi IanXT4, thanks for the link.

I have been in contact with Carl from and sent the audio file to him too, and he has said the following....

"I'm not 100% sure what I'm listening for but the starter seems to be turning the engine fine it just sounds like the engine is a bit hesitant.

The usual symptom for worn contacts would be a clicking sound when you try to start the engine and if you keep trying it'll evenually start or sometimes it sound like the Battery is low on power and starter turns slowly, if you have either of these symptoms then a kit is what you need."

Now buying a starter repair kit seems to be a false lead?? :(

[anchorman]

Yep, the starter is fine. It is trying to fire but just can't. In that case the starter can't quite keep up with the engine and the engine leaves it trailing.

[LeeADAB]

So for now I will leave the starter.

The Battery has plenty of juice. It was a new Yuasa one 3years ago. I could always get a drop test done on it but the engine fluttered the morning after a 60 mile trip so would've been well charged. It reads 11.8 most mornings and when engine running it goes up to about 14v. That says the alternator is fine too.

I think that a blocked fuel injector would cause issues while driving too.

Is the MAF sensor involved in starting?

I did clean it a few years ago.

It must be a damp contact issue???

[anchorman]

Cleaning the MAF again won't harm but am I right in understanding that you bought a new coil and only used the seal? I would start by changing the one that had the seal missing for the new one and the new seal. AND I would at least remove one plug and see for yourself that they are what you think they are.

[LeeADAB]

That's right I did just use the seal from the spare ignition coil I bought. I did however move the coil to another cylinder (first to fire instead of last) to rule the actual coil out.

I will check spark plugs tonight and see what they are. I do hope they were renewed in March.

[IanXT4]

Out of interest do you have a drive by wire throttle body or a cable operated version ?

I cleaned mine around 50,000 and it was filthy and causing idle problems. (mine was drive by wire)

I wonder if the carbon deposits in the throttle body are getting "sticky" on damp mornings and causing the car to have incorrect air flow at the point of startup ?

Alternatively if its a cable version maybe there is a similar problem with the idle control valve ?

[LeeADAB]

Not sure if drive by wire etc. The engine is a 1AZ-FE version. I am still doing things in stages so I know if what I do makes a difference or not. Last step was check and waterproof connections on starter with the silcone grease. Waiting for it to flutter again before continuing but cleaning the throttle body does sound like a good thing to do anyway. Especially as it won't have been done before and I have done 74K in it now.

The Haynes manual says I can just take off the hose to it and clean with throttle cleaner and a toothbrush? I don't fancy removing it completely to be honest.

Would cleaning it from one side be good enough?

[IanXT4]

If its cable operated you will see a cable on the throttle body which goes to the accelerator pedal. Drive by wire just has an electrical connector. If its cable operated I believe you have a Idle control valve to clean as well see this link.

http://www.toyotaown...howtopic=128068

You could clean it connected to the engine if its drive by wire (ie no idle valve) but it would be far better to remove it, whole job only takes a couple of hours. You need one replacement gasket and its useful to have two brake pipe clamps to clamp off the two coolant pipes you have to remove.

I would recommend Normfest VC980 throttle body cleaner from Euro Carparts, dissolved the carbon far better than other solvents I had.

[anchorman]

Take the coils out one by one. Pay particular attention to that one that had the rubber missing. Check for really fine hailine cracks and see if you can see any burning or scorching. You might only see a fine sooty line. Use 2 coils to compare each other very carefully and given you have a new one get rid of that suspect one. Don't throw it away without really studying it first. Keep it to one side for now.

[LeeADAB]

I shall check the coils when it flutters again along with the spark plug indentification.

FYI: The new coil is a used part which cost £12.50 (and I took the seal off that. I tested briefly that it worked before storing and keeping as a spare) whereas the newest one which is in there and possibly suspect cost me over £90 from Toyota so I am hoping that is fine.

Last night I did disconnect the main engine ground strap which I found has a connector half way along. Missed that before even if it is obvious!!

It was a bit green with corrosion so i cleaned that up and re-connected. It may be my mind but it seemed stronger to start this morning? I will wait now until it flutters before doing anything else.

(last flutter.....Sat 12th Jan)

[LeeADAB]

Slight Flutter this morning 22/01(damp) no problems at all since the 12th. Even with all the snow and damp mornings. Talk about very intermittent!!

I checked all ignition coils tonight for cracks and they all look in perfect condition.

Took out one spark plug from cylinder 1. It was the ngk Iridium. Didn't want to remove any more in case I damaged the dry threads and they are sealed from the moisture I still think is causing my issues! Slight brown staining around the white porcelain but that is quite normal from what I just read here. http://ngkntk.co.uk/index.php/technical-centre/spark-plugs/corono-stain/

Would that be normal after only 9 months?

I also checked the resistance from each coil bolt to the negative ground on the chassis by the Battery and all were about 0.03-0.05 which is fine?

That would mean that the corroded ground connection from engine to chassis is providing a good ground still.

I may need to find someone to clean the throttle body and ICV as I think that maybe a tricky one if clamping coolant hoses are involved etc.

On a separate note I also need to get the diff and transfer oils changed soon as that is something I believe needed doing at around 60k. After it next flutters I will continue with silicone greasing the connectors one by one. I'd still rather it fluttered every day to help me with testing ;)

[anchorman]

You shouldn't need vaseline or silicone on the connections. I would now substitue each coil one by one with your spare. Run it in position 1 until it does it again then swap it to 2 and so on until you have done them all. Hopefully one of them will stop it.

The plugs do scorch a bit but a positive blackish brown mark all the way up the porceline insulator is a good indication of "tracking".

[LeeADAB]

Cheers Anchorman, That sounds like a plan. Swapping coils out in turn.

The plug I looked at had a small brown ring around the base only, the rest was white. The sparky end looked good!

[LeeADAB]

ANOTHER UPDATE....._{(Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water!!)}

Fluttered again on Sunday 27/01 afternoon - DAMP/Wet weather

Fluttered again yesterday (Thursday) morning 31/01 - DAMP/Wet weather

As per Don's recent suggestion, I swapped coil pack 1 for the spare last night. This morning it fluttered again so will swap coil 2 later.

Watch this space......

Would the throttle body / ICV be affected by damp? Just that other than the initial startup it runs beautifully and a dirty throttle body should cause RPM / Idle / hesitation issues which I definitely dont have. I drove a 200mile round trip last weekend with five adults and a camping trailer full of kit and the car was flawless and drove like a dream other than the sunday afternoon ignition flutter before heading home.

[IanXT4]

I still wonder if something is sticking in the throttle body/ICV when you first start and it subsequently frees up an the first few throttle movements. Why not clean it all to rule it out (it probably could do with a clean anyway)

[anchorman]

I would carry on with the electrical connections/components but there is no harm in cleaning the throttle body. If you want to be fairly confident about what caused it you should only do one thing at once. If you're not really bothered, fill your boots - it's forecast a nice day!

[LeeADAB]

I've changed the second coil last night so will wait until it flutters again before moving on. I will be continuing one step at a time as I want to know what is causing the issue. I will probably get someone to clean the throttle body/ICV when I get the oils done but I would like to have a go myself at both. But not until I've exhausted the electrical fault finding. This ONLY happens in damp conditions so must be a connection issue somewhere.

Thanks again Don and Ian for the continued assistance. Have a good weekend!!