Engine Failure Rates By Brand

[Heidfirst]

thought that this maybe of interest:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/62383/german-cars-among-worst-engine-failures

[acetip]

So Toyota have twice as many failures as Honda.

[Heidfirst]

or 6 times fewer than Audi ...

I wonder if it's perhaps related to the % of diesels - Honda pretty much dragged their feet on diesel & as we know modern diesels are anything but maintenance & trouble free.

It also doesn't say what their definition is for engine failure.

[Parts-King]

So Toyota have twice as many failures as Honda.

But Toyota sell 55% MORE cars than Honda, or 30K more in fact, It's one of those figures that can be quite subjective

Anyway it all goes to show what has been known in the trade for years, German Badge snobbery is rife, their engineering is no better than most and in a lot of cases considerably worse

Kingo

[fastbob72]

It may also be a reflection on the owners of particular brands aswell as the way they're percieved in general.

BMW,Audi are thought of as a drivers marque with a level of performance engineered into their DNA.

It maybe a stereotype to think of the average BMW or Audi owner being the sort that'll drive them that bit harder and more aggressively than the 'standard' owner of a Japanese car but perhaps there's an underlying truth to it.

Perhaps the way a certain percentage of Beemers and Audis are driven accounts for the higher instance of engine failure.

The same stereotypes would explain lower rates in Honda,Toyota and Mercedes !!

[rogersp]

Having had a number of quality brands and others this is my opinion in comparing German and Japanese:

Honda Accord 1 - 110k, 3.5 years no problems, not a squeak or rattle!

Honda Accord 2 - 140k 4 years, no problems, did what it said on the tin !

BMW 5 Series, 90k in 3 years. Automatic Gearbox and ECU failure, warranty claim

Audi A6 140k 5 years, Steering rack and single injector failure, out of warranty so at my significant cost!

Merc C220 85k, 4 years intermittent starting problem that is still not fixed by MB, now out of warranty but I do love this car.

All cars were serviced by local mark specialists with any warranty work being completed by the franchise dealers, begrudgingly !

My opinion, we buy German cars with our hearts and Japanese cars with our heads!

So what will I buy next? Good question probably a Toyota Avensis petrol of a Honda Civic petrol. Totally different cars so still not sure which way I'll jump as there as some factors I need to consider first.

Regards

[acetip]

As the vast majority of cars in this country do not deal with Warranty Direct Do the fiquires mean anything.

Is it all just statistics.

[fastbob72]

I take it you're talking about owning those cars from new rogersp,the Hondas,BMW,Merc and your Avensis ??

Have to admit I've never owned a new car.My present ones 10 year old but has just turned 79,000 miles and in incredible shape.

The newest car I've owned was a M plate Cavalier SRi 16v (with a redtop) I bought for 3k back in 1999.

It was 5 year old,immaculate,35,000 miles on it.Was practically a new car to me,as good as.

It started running on 3 cylinders a mile away from work a couple of months after I got it.Opened the bonnet to find an HT lead hanging loose wi the spark plug still attatched,it had stripped the thread in the head :(

Stripped it off n took it to a local engineering firm that pressed in a new insert and helicoiled it for £50.Then took it to a head specialist who pressure tested it then skimmed it for me for £75 and another £75 for head kit,cambelt n pulleys.

Still gave me the oppurtunity to get a die grinder and smooth n flow the ports,open the throats n swirl them a little,strip the valves out n grind them back in and accurately set the cam timing with a vernier gauge rather than factory timing marks then advanced the inlet cam 6 degrees the exhaust 8 degrees.A disaster became a chance to do a little improvement.

After that it ran like a dream for 30,000 k,then I replaced it with another redtop I'd been buliding but this one was properly rebuilt from scratch with twin weber 45's,cams,big valves,headwork etc,etc.Had countless Mk2 and Mk3 Cavaliers and their engines were great.

Vauxhall engines are real good,rev all day n torquey with it :)

Had a G plate 325i,again warned over and used hard but it never had any engine issues.

Had an Audi 80 Sport with the 5cyl 2.2 and again never had an engine problem.

Never owned a Honda so can't speak about them but have had a few Nissans which did cause me engine problems,clutch issues too.

Several Subarus which never missed a beat and innumerable Fords from a Mk1 Fiesta 1.1 to 2.8 Capri,Sapphire Cosworth,RS1600i,Series 1 RS Turbo n everything in between.My advice apart from the RS1600i avoid the CVH like the plague :)

And this last year I've had two Avensis's.The first had 140,000 when I got it,I even boiled it dry when a gasket in the cooling system failed.Took 4 hours till the engine was cool enough to work on.

I made a gasket out of an old crappy bit of lino lying on the garage floor,refilled her wi coolant,fired her up n she never missed a beat for over 5,000 miles.

Now thats what I call a bulletproof engine :)

[rogersp]

Yes, I totally agree some older cars are/were bullet proof.

Today we build engines,especially diesels, that are far too complex and becoming more difficult for the average guy with good mechanical skills to work on.

Re all cars above being privately owned, this true but none of them were brand new, all purchased at around 12 months old, ex dem cars etc, purchased where I could around Christmas/New Year, believe me it's the only time franchise dealers sharpen their pencils!

Never would I but a brand new car as the first year depreciation is horrific, years 2 and 3 are still high but as I buy my cars with a company allowance I can live with it. If it was my car, I'd buy a 4/5 year old car with a service history and definitely Japanese.

[Parts-King]

Yes, I totally agree some older cars are/were bullet proof.

Today we build engines,especially diesels, that are far too complex and becoming more difficult for the average guy with good mechanical skills to work on.

They have to be so they meet all the latest emissions. They don't want Joe Egg faffing around with what are very technical engines and componants

For those who do have the skills, you can get as much detailed information as you like from Toyota

Kingo

[rogersp]

Emission control is a joke, I'll bet >30/40% of cars do a run to school, a few miles there and back each day, a few trips to supermarket and probably never reach a temperature where the cat can do it's job.

Looking back 20/30 years ago Ford had a plan to develop lean burn engines that would control emissions far more effectively than a cat but some pen pusher made the decision to go the cat route and not an automotive engineer who knew what he was talking about.

Additionally, the number of guys who actually attempt to do anything to a vehicle these days is extremely low as we have so few people out there with the skills to even fix a puncture on a push bike.

If you want to control the worlds emissions lets start trying to help those countries burning brown coal to generating electricity. Go to a large developing countries in the east and see for yourself, you'd be horrified at the pollution levels from vehicles and power stations. Add that to the pollution from virtually unregulated factories, supported by western multinationals, and you'll see a that emission control control in the west is fast becoming a lost cause.

[Parts-King]

For whatever reason, we are where we are with emission regulations. The UK would still be one of those countries if it were not for regulation. Companies would not raise the bar unless forced to by the regulators

The pen pusher you talk about was the EU and ratified in the UK by Maggie Thatcher, it was her lot that signed up for the CAT

Kingo

[rogersp]

I don't don't disagree with you but common sense needs to prevail, something that most if not all politicians and regulators lackl The decisions are made they make are for the benefit of their votes next time around and not the planet and everyone on it.

One day we'll all realise and pay the price but................it'll be tooooo late !

Apologies, rant over

[Parts-King]

none taken

[fastbob72]

You're right rogersp engines are infinetly more complex than on the cars I grew up playing around with or helping my dad work on aTriumph Dolomite,Maxi,Viva HB,Super Minx,Volvo 145.

Me and a mate bought a Mk1 Escort from a scrapyard aged 12 to rod up n down the forestry tracks.

My first road legal car when I was 17 was a T reg 1.1L Fiesta.I bought an 2nd hand 1300 kent engine and stripped n rebuilt it.

An OHV with j timing chain,pushrods,rockers,a heron head.I upjetted a twin choke weber from an Escort RS Mexico,smoothed out the ports,janspeed exhaust and put it in the 1100 bolted to a 4spd 950 g/box which had higher ratios for added take off.Fitted XR2 brakes and suspension.It ate XR2s and RS2000s to about 75mph :)

When everyone became emissions concious post 1990 engines became a lot more complex.The easiest and most cost effective way to cut pollutants at that time was to run them lean and bang on a catalytic converters.

The cat though is expensive and run at high temp so the fueling has to be right,a little too rich the cat will choke up fast,it already runs lean any leaner it'll knock to buggery,if any unburnt fuel goes down the exhaust it'll blow the cat out your tailpipe so the fueling.ignition,idle speed/mixture is controlled by a computer that runs,regulates,monitors,adapts and diagnoses itself.

The tolerance which is acceptable regarding air/fuel ratio (Lambda) is 0.97 ~ 1.03 +/- .A lambda or O2 sensor reads the oxygen level in the exhaust allow the ECU to monitor how complete combustion is and adjust the a/f ratio in response whetheri indirectly in open loop or directly in closed loop

Also running on the lean side,less fuel reduces the potential for emissions but being less combustible is solved by higher compression ratio,extra heat promoting a cleaner burn but it means the engines is running much closer to knocking,so the add a knock sensor to retard the ignition if it does.

The extra heat and increased compression also allow metered amounts of exhaust gas via the EGR to be burnt which reduces NOX,also fuel vapour stored in the charcoal cannister and is fed into the inlet at particular times decided by the ECU.Some have secondary air injection to cool the exhaust and add extra o2.

In many ways modern engines resemble modern jet fighter aircraft that are designed to be unstable kept flyable by computer control.Engines through the 90's and last decade operate near to knocking,inefficiently,too hot and lean with the ecu keeping it from falling off the tightrope !!!

Long gone are the days of carbfeed,manual chokes,mixture screws and contact breakers but that was also the days of rocker arms,pushrods and siamesed ports.Of difficult starting and flat batterys on winters mornings.

In some ways I miss the simple motors but then again once you get your head around how they operate their quite easy to diagnose,repair or modify

[Roker]

I would be interested to know failures with Mechanical vs Electrical, and engine electrics, there is too much technology now in engine management etc to be reliable. silmilar sensors in industry would cost hundreds to thousands of pounds.

[t-spiritpete]

Oh how I miss those old diesel engines, using a piece of rag soaked in diesel, setting fire to it offering it up to the inlet to get it started in winter or squirting Easystart in there ... NO NO NO I don't miss them one bit NOR do I miss the old 1.3 40bhp petrol engines doing around 25mpg burning oil like it's going out of fashion!

Give me a modern petrol or diesel any day, I will say that the DPF system on most cars diesel is not quite right yet and we may be better off without it but as we are in Europe then there is little chance of that! The only people who benefit from the old ways are the ones in the third world or stuck in the back of beyond where bits of string or wire will still get you home.

My 2.2 diesel Avensis is powerfull, economical and nice to drive due to all the technology on it so it's NO to the old days for me, been there done that ;) .

Pete.

[Parts-King]

My Dad had a J4 van, you could hardly use it in winter, the amount of times Ive singed my once ample hair with Easystart...........

[t-spiritpete]

My Dad had a J4 van, you could hardly use it in winter, the amount of times Ive singed my once ample hair with Easystart...........

Was that fitted with the old Perkins 4/99 or the 4/108 ... a most wonderful engine!

Pete.

[Parts-King]

Sad to say Pete but I cant remember, it was in the early 70's.........Ive slept since then A most dreadful oil and diesel leaky stinky thing, you hummed of diesel when you got out of it

The first company I worked for had a J4 van and a Commer Walkthrough They were both as bad as each other

Kingo

[Jamesbelfast]

In the past most top managers in the car manufacturing companies came form an engineering background - nowadays most are bean counters - hence the decrease in reliabilty.

Even Honda have suffered as a result.

[fastbob72]

Diesels weren't that great in the late 80's or early 90's even.I've owned 2 diesels and I've lost count around 60 as to how many cars I've owned.

Had an '87 cavalier,woeful and a '94 cavalier 1.7 td which was a ok,compotent I suppose but not enjoyable to drive.

Driving pleasure and diesel don't mix or so I thought till I drove my old mans Pug 306 1.9 tdi.That was the first diesel car I've driven that was clearly designed as a package rather than taking a petrol model and throwing an old bus engine in :)

Drove a 4.2 Audi A8 that was quite something particularly at 150mph.lol.

Modern diesels have come a long,long way in the last 20 years.Some are almost as good as a petrol,almost :)

I knew this guy years ago,worked as an engineer for the a few well known manufacturer works motorsport teams before I knew him.

He ran a busted up '85 1.8 fiesta diesel van with a mix of diesel and butane which was fed from a standard caravan gas bottle in the passenger footwell.

Cant remember now if it was fed directly upstream of the throttle or whether it was pumped under additional pressure using a similar system to nitrous injection.

What I do know is it transformed the engine.It ran quieter and smoother than most petrol engines even though it had at least 140,000 miles on it.

It greatly increased the power output but also the rev range which the power was delivered,it would rev a lot higher too.

Also it ran cleaner and he got nearly double the mpg than before,it was quite somthing to see the transformation !!!