Early Avensis With Vvt Engine.

[Flakmann]

Hi Guys, I`m a newbie on here and thinking about trying out the Toyota marque with an early Avensis.

What I`d like an opinion on, is the pros and cons of the later vvt engine as against the earlier 7AFE engine.

I`ve read (on here) plenty of horror stories about excessive oil consumption with the later engine, and there are plenty of the later cars for sale with knocking vvt engines, some with rattling timing chains, no doubt due to running out of oil.

I do know that the 7AFE used a cambelt, and have recently read that the 7AFE is a non interference engine, which sounds good to me in case of belt snapping issues.

Any advice on other T210 problems welcome, Thanks.

[talldave]

I wouldn't go anywhere near an early vvti unless I was 100% sure that it had had the new short engine fitted to fix the oil consumption issue. A 7AFE would be a better bet I think- I've had one for 7 years - having bought it after exactly the same dilemma that you have - it's a great car thats been no trouble at all.

[t-spiritpete]

The 7AFE is probably one of the best engines ever made and good for 500k miles, and the rest of the Avensis is just as good, almost as good as the Carina E it replaced!

If you buy one with unknown history fit a cam belt and water pump give it a full service and it will run forever.

Toyota don't make cars as good as these cars anymore sadly.

Pete.

[Flakmann]

Thanks Guys, much appreciated, it`s the 7AFE then.

Talldave, an automatic box is what I`d prefer too, driven nothing else for the last 10 years. Is there anything to be aware of on that score?

[talldave]

Only very minor problem I had with my autobox was the cable became detached at the gear stick end once. Just had to be put back on - took half an hour. So ignore that. Otherwise its great - changed the ATF once and just about to do it again next week - just as easy as changing the oil.

Mines done 110,000 miles in 14 years and as Pete says will probably last longer than I'll ever want to keep it!

I'd definately recommend one.

[Flakmann]

Many thanks talldave, All queries sorted. I`ll have a look for one.

[fastbob72]

It sounds like you've made up your mind already and I can understand why you'd choose the 7A-FE especially after talldave n t-spirit's excellent advice.

I got my first ever experience of Toyota at the start of 2012 when I bought a W plate 1.8 GS.I ran it until Sept when the m.o.t ran out then I bought my 52 plate 1.8 vvti which I still have.

I've had back2back experience of the 7A-FE then the 1ZZ-FE over the last 15 months so even though you've probably decided I hope you may find it of some interest.

I probably should mention I've been a car freak since a kid,love powerful cars,tuning,modifying,rebuliding engines and over my 23 year car history it's 90% fast Vauxhalls and Fords but also a couple of Subarus n fast Nissans so there are certain attributes I consider important in an engine which maybe worth bearing in my mind when you read my opinion :)

I had the 7A-FE engined Avensis first.It cost me 300 or 400 with nearly a full MOT but it was an ex-taxi with 140,000 very hard miles behind it,the interior and exterior spoke of it's hard working life so how was it to own ??

Faultless,it never missed a single beat,started first turn of the key every,I mean EVERY single time.Barely used any oil,spark plugs always had those nice light brown deposits of a healthy engine,compression was high and even over the 4 cylinders,only mild exhaust smoke on start up n no visible fumes once warm,not even coming off the throttle.

In other words 140,000 hard,working miles just seemed to have bedded the engine nicely,wrung out it's internal stresses.It was in it's prime.

I put on another 15,000 hard miles and had only one hitch.Was driving home after work,around 20 miles.I was knackered,on auto pilot which explains why I didn't see my temp gauge off the scale,way past the red.A mile from home the first I knew was when the engine suddenly began pre-detonating severely as it was boiled nearly dry.When I lifted the bonnet there was steam under high pressure escaping from a coolant outlet on the head.

When I saw how hot it was I let it sit till the temp gauge was about 3/4 hot n tried it,it ran better so got it home.It took 3 hours to cool enough to work on but when it did I found the alloy casting that bolts to the head that the hose fits too had blown it's gasket.It was 9pm n 15 miles out of town so I made a gasket from a scrap of old kitchen lino,refitted with a little instant gasket.Had to refill with anti freeze/water as i'd lost 80% of my coolant when it boiled and when it was full I ran the engine,heater on full,bled out the airlocks n let it run up to temp.

No leaks,back to it's regular temp,no misses.in fact you'd never guess it had overheated to the point it couldnt run.A 140,000 + miler too,that's the definition of bomb proof.I expected the head to have cracked,warped at least after boiling dry as any other engine would but it didnt affect it one bit plus I ran it another 5,000 miles maybe with a lino gasket no seapage even.

T-spirit claims its one of the best engines ever.....

[fastbob72]

....best engine ever ???

That's a very bold statement but not totally off the wall.I mean,there's a lot of contenders for a host of reasons.Many would be iconic like the Hemi V8's,Cosworth BDA,Coventry Climax,Jaguar V12,any Ferrari motor or the 911 boxers etc,etc but if you're talking regular production engines from less exotic cars then it's a different story.

Bearing in mind my love of 'fast' cars and fast driving then power,torque,responsiveness are important factors for rating an engine as special.My favourites are the Vauxhall Redtop,the 1.8 SE Family II also from Vauxhall and Cosworth YBB.

The 7A-FE is a great engine but it isn't a performance engine nor is it particularly lively in the Avensis with that g/box n final drive.If you compare it to the SOHC 1.8 SE Family II from the Cavalier SRi or mk1 and early mk2 Astra GTE which produced 109 or 112 bhp similar to the 7A's 109 bhp the difference is notable.The Vauxhall is much freer revving,responsive,more torquey from low down yet it's loves to revved too.

A boy i knew had an M plate Corolla which had the 7A-FE with around 118 bhp.It was a very rare model in the UK,a 3 door with big factory spoiler n bodykit though can't remember what it was,possibly a GSi but don't quote me on that,I just know it was a very limited model.

In that car it was more sporty more akin to an Astra GTE yet not as responsive.In the mk3 Cavalier CDi which was higher geared than the SRi the 1.8 sohc was a responsive,willing motor much more than the 7A-FE :)

Don't get me wrong,it's ok mid range and will take a caning but it was never designed for spirited driving but steady,sensible,efficient,reliable use.Most engines are but few do it aswell but some like Vauxhall's sohc 1.8 have that willingness that make them fun too.

That's my only gripe about the 7A-FE,it's not an engine designed for fun.In every other respect it IS one of the best engines ever :)

So what of the 1.8 vvti 1ZZ-FE engine in the later 1st generation Avensis ??

Well,the oppurtunity of mine came up out of the blue,had to decide fast.It was too good a condition mechanically,structurally,exterior n interior immaculate,2 older careful owners from new,79,000 on the clock n for pennies.

Easy decision but I hadn't a clue of the 1ZZ's reputation or the design weakness's of the early engines until a day or so after I bought it.That was 6 months ago so how has it been ??

[BigMo82]

My mechanic has dealt with a lot of Toyotas over the years and the only engine he swears by is the 7a-fe.

[fastbob72]

Hey bigMO,I certainly agree the 7A-FE is a solid,bulletproof engine.As I said,I boiled my high miler dry,temp gauge off the dial but once it cooled n I fit a new gasket it was good as new.I don't know many engines that could handle that without warping the cylinder head.

As for my vvti,I've all the paperwork,service history and bills from new,I know it's the original '02 short block so it's got the potential to develop the oiling problems their renowned for.

From what I've read,looked into and once I found about it I think I've read every article,opinion and forum post on all kinds of auto forums plus all the background and technical info on the engine I can find.I've viewed a pile of Youtube videos on it aswell trying to get as wide a variety of sources in search of the truth...

....From what I read it's not a forgone conclusion that the engine will develop serious lubrication problems but because of several design weakness's it is a real possibility,particularly for people unaware of the issue.

My engine is still in excellent condition,the lubrication system isn't a problem.i've been keeping a very wary eye on my oil level and condition.The consumption is a little higher than I'd expect for other engines but well within the levels for the 1ZZ.

At present the lubrication system is in fine fettle and I see no reason for it to get worse if I change it regularly,new filter every time but I am going to try and get hold of a later engine to strip and rebuild along with a little headwork n better cams :)

The engine itself produces power much better and nicer than the 7A-FE.It is much more responsive,quicker on the throttle from lower down and once it reaches around 4000 rpm it really starts to kick in making it much more enjoyable car to drive.

Comparing it to a Vauxhall again it reminds me a lot of the 2.0 16v X20XEV ecotec engine in the very last Cavaliers n then Vectra.Just like my 16v SRi which was noticably better at certain temperatures I find the vvti is even better cold mornings which suggests it's drawing hot underbonnet air n could do with a proper cold air feed.

The trouble with the vvti is that it's got a bad name because of the early problems,it's what it's known for.Putting that aside,in every other way the vvti is a far superior engine to the 7A-FE.It's more powerful,flexible,has a better,wider power delivery and uses a little less fuel just.

I got an overall 37mpg with the GS,with the vvti I make it 39mpg though the trip counter says 37.9mpg I work it out doing the maths everytime I fill up.Don't trust the range readings so work it out myself n zero the trip counter on the speedo.Tested it a few times by figuring out when it would run out then doing it (wi tin of fuel in boot) to see.It's definitely averaging 39 mpg :)

Like I say,havent had any oil problems in 8,000 miles so in my personal opinion and experience the vvti is definitely better but because of it's history,reputation plus the vvti myth that follows it it's in the back of your mind.In some ways I wish I didn't know,if it wasnt for it's reputation nobody would question the vvti being a lot better.

That's my experience of it.

[Flakmann]

Wow, Thanks a lot for all that info fastbob, as yet I haven`t found a car, so everything is still up in the air.

Unfortunately for me, I`m slowly becoming an "older" driver (not much I can do about that) and so `steady sensible efficient reliable` is more apt than `spirited` driving.

One other point that deters me from the VVT engine is my experience with the other half`s Renault vvt megane cabrio. It uses an oil operated advance/!Removed! inlet cam pulley which has a basic design fault, ie 30k miles and they begin to rattle on start up. 8/10 years on, and they still haven`t cured it.

As yet, I know nothing of how the Toyota vvt system works, but can`t find complaints on here about it.

So, to conclude, I`m still favouring a 7A FE, but if an irresistable 1ZZ automatic showed up, then who knows?

[t-spiritpete]

Fastbob, I actually said ....

The 7AFE is probably one of the best engines ever made, (maybe I should have also added) .... for an affordable and reliable family car ;) .

Regards

Pete

[Flakmann]

Fastbob, I actually said ....

The 7AFE is probably one of the best engines ever made, (maybe I should have also added) .... for an affordable and reliable family car ;) .

Regards

Thanks Pete, and this is what I like to hear;

"Faultless,it never missed a single beat,started first turn of the key every,I mean EVERY single time.Barely used any oil,spark plugs always had those nice light brown deposits of a healthy engine,compression was high and even over the 4 cylinders,only mild exhaust smoke on start up n no visible fumes once warm,not even coming off the throttle."

[Konrad C]

T Spirirt Pete is right about the 7A-FE engine! I will be biased since I own one.

Who cares about performance when economy and reliability is paramount, with the price of petrol these days.

The cambelt is not as issue and can be changed easily, whilst the timing chain on the vvti can stretch and even break is the oil schedules are missed.

I have to change the Vibration damped pulley and belts recently, and the HT leads (non-original), but the engine itself feels as good as it was when I first got the car back in 2003 - the car was in the family since 2001.

I have to admit that I change the oil and filter twice a year.

7A-FE is great engine and I hear the 3S-FE is a great engine too!

[Roker]

I have a 2005 1.8 vvTi pre modification Avensis, with 81,000 mile, it does not use a drop of oil between services. I do not like to go the full 9,000 mile service interval, A small tip if you have these engines, one of the mods to help piston cooling, is that the oil level was increased by 10mm on the modified engine, I put another mark on my dipstick and have been running with this for about 18 month. I am told that the NCT test will not check for emissions if they think it is overfilled so I am going to look at putting a 10mm spacer on the dipstick or replace with a modified dipstick, the part number is 15301-0D011

[Flakmann]

Good to hear these tips Roker. Thank you.

[Roker]

Notes that Have on file

The oil consumption issues affecting 1zz 1.8, 3zz 1.6 & 4zz 1.4 engines is caused by a combination of several issues, leading Toyota to make several changes to the engines upto around mid 2005 where they managed to cure the issues,

1. Insufficient oil capacity, pre 2005 engines only came with 3.7 litres of oil, this caused the oil to remain very hot all the time reducing the cooling affect the oil has on the back of the pistons. The continued high oil temps causes the oil to degrade and sludge excessively between service oil changes.

Toyota increased the oil capacity from 3.7 to 4.7 litres reducing the oil temps in the engine. ( EDIT On post 2005 cars Toyota increased oil capacity to 4.2 litres, On pre 2005 cars which had the official modifications carried out due to excessive oil consumption the oil capacity was raised to 4.7litres except for MR2's which stayed at 3.7litres due to the compact / shallow sump fitted to them )

2. Poor piston design, the rear of the piston only had 4 oil ways allowing the hot oil coming from the piston ring oil scrapers to pass away from the piston rings. This meant that the oil stayed at the hottest part of the piston crown for too long exacerbating issue # 1 which in turn allowed the oil ways to sludge up. Once sludging started the oil would eventually start to burn and harden around the rings this started to wear away at the bores eventually misshaping them. Due to the Nikosil coating applied to the bores they should not be rebored or honed meaning Toyota replaced any block showing even the slightest of damage.

Toyota redesigned the pistons to include 8 oil ways which allowed the oil to pass away quicker.

3. The use of poor quality or overly thick oils (thicker than 5w30) increased the likely hood of the issues above occurring. Toyota noted that even dealers where using oils such as 10w40 and quickly pointed out that although the owners manual listed 10w40 it was for warmer climates and that 5w30 was the preferred grade and insisted that dealers use 5w30 when servicing and repairing #zz engines.

4. Poor piston ring design, In an attempt to reduce friction, increase efficiency and lower emissions the engine designers profiled the piston rings to a sharp point reducing the contact point on the bore, this on its own only increased oil consumption slightly but when combined with issues 1,2 & 3
caused the piston rings not scrape the overly thick oils effectively.

New piston rings where designed with a larger contact area and higher ring tension.

Initially Toyota fitted new blocks along with modified pistons, rings, thermostat ( to lower engine running temp ) and a modified dipstick ( to show the new 4.7litre levels) they also recovered the old blocks eventually leading to them switching the approved repair method to remanufactured short blocks fully assembled with the modified parts.

Oil consumption was an issue in both 1.6 3zz and 1.8 1zz / 2zz emgines toyota resolved this by raising the oil level 0.5 of a liter to improvepiston cooling and adding more return holes in the piston skirt .but if any petrol engine is abused wrong oil / lack of serivce this will lead to carbon deposits / sludge which blocks the pcv system and causes oil to be forced pass the rings resulting in oil burning .gud service history and correct oil is a must with theese engines

[fastbob72]

I absolutely agree about the 7A-FE being one of the most robust and reliable engines I've ever come across,in truth I'd probably agree with pete it is one of the best 'family production car' engines every built (along with several others from vauxhall/opel i.e the 'Redtop' 2.0XE and Family II 1.8 sohc engines) but the 1ZZ-FE engine is a great engine too.

There are some of us who still appreciate performance and responsiveness aswell Konrad and the thing is the 1.8 vvti (1ZZ-FE) gives overall better fuel economy than the 7A-FE.My 1.8GS averages 36 mpg while my 1.8vvti averages 38-39 mpg.So far it's been utterly reliable.You're right about timing chains stretching if you ignore the oil schedules but that goes for any engine,likewise if you don't replace your timing belts at the recommended intervals they potentially could break,although I've never known either to happen to any engine I've owned.

Thanks Roker,was beginning to feel ganged up on here,haha. Also thanks for the breakdown of the issues with the vvti.I've also got a 2002 non-modified 1.8 1ZZ-FE with around 85,000 on the clock.It does use around a litre of oil every 1500 miles (which normally I'd consider excessive in any other engine) but according to my owners handbook 1 litre/600 miles is ok !!!

3.7 litre oil capacity (including new filter !!) is quite low,most equivalent engines would have a capacity of at least around 4.5 but I checked the capacity of the 7A-FE and it's exactly the same.What I've have noticed is my 2000 GS had an oil cooler while my 2002 vvti doesn't so I'm looking into fitting an oil cooler to my plus adding an oil temp/pressure gauges while I'm at it.

Also I'm intrigued by overfilling the sump by 10mm.

Is that 10mm measured on the dipstick ??

If so that's near to the distance between the min and max marks which is around a litre.That would take it up to 4.7 litres,the capacity the modified engines were raised too but do the modified engines in our Avensis's have a deeper sump or are the just 'overfilled'.If it's simply a case of overfilling then does the crank 'dip' into the oil when the engines running because if it does then that creates problems of it's own which aren't good !!!

Anyway,thanks for your input and I'm glad to see I'm not the only pro-vvti head here :)

Bob.

[Konrad C]

I take your points Bob, having owned two family II enginged Vauxhalls before my Avensis. They were very reliable engines that needed regular oil changes to keep the hydraulic cams in good condition. Yes the economy of the vvti is very good and the performance is good, but from what I have read in the past, you have to use higher revs to get into the power band. Since you have both engines is this the case that the engine is a little flat before 4000 rpm? I have to admit that there is a slight step in power for the 7A-FE engine well above 3000 rpm, even thought it feels fine from 1500 to 3000 rpm - normal driving conditons.

If I am right, only a percentage of the vvti engine have the oil burning issue. Are there figure to say how many engines have been changed?

I have read in manuals, car mags, and other sources that over filling oil can cause problems with engines in general. Toyota's mod includes a deeper oil sump to take more oil, plus some other internal mods. Not just adding more oil. Also note that the Avensis vvti does not have an oil cooler.

The high octane petrol (98 ron) makes no difference with most engines - there will be less knock. If the engine ECU adjusts the timing to take advantage of the higher octane, then there should be a very slight power increase. I can't see how this affects the oil burning issue though.

[fastbob72]

Alright Konrad,I agree about the higher octane fuel that's why I posted that guys post to see what others think.Personally,I think that putting super unleaded in my car will make no difference at all.

1.It isn't running beyond the threshhold of knocking normally so using fuel with higher knock resistance is pointless.

2.The management system has no way of telling it's 98 octane fuel in the tank so isn't going to automatically adjust to make the most of it.It won't have a map with in it's memory for that anyway.

It was the guy talking about superior detergents in 98 oct fuel that intrigued me,don't know if it's true but then again a mechanic/rally driver I know says DON'T EVER use tesco fuel as it doesn't have the same detergents/additives (why it's cheaper !!!) as the fuel from normal petrol stations.i.e BP and Shell etc !!!

No,I find that the 1ZZ-FE pulls well from below 2,500 rpm strongly till around 4,500 rpm then the power really kicks in to the redline (though I've rarely gone beyond 6,000 or 5,500 even).

If it is a little flatter than the 7A then it's down below 2,500 - 3,000 rpm but after that it's notably more torquey and responsive.I do find though I do have to rev it a bit more than usual when pulling away,it does seem to be a flat right down between idle and 2,000 rpm.

I know that sounds like being picky but the 7A doesn't have that problem.My Cavalier SRi 16V with the redtop 2.0XE engine,I could put it in 5th and come off the throttle letting it slow right down till the engine was no more than idling n she was doing 10-15 mph and she wouldnt splutter or miss,an incredible engine.

Anyway,the 7A does feel flatter in the normal working rev range,mine dia pick up at 3-3,5000 rpm but it needed to be revved hard to produce decent power,the vvti has more power in the working rev range then it hits 4-4,500 and really starts to fly (it's like comparing a ford 2.0 zetec and a vauxhall 2.0 redtop,if that helps)

I don't think every vvti will definitely suffer oil problems,mine had 2 careful owners,was regularly serviced so is ok but i do think every pre 2005 vvti has the potential for oil problems which makes me wary,concious even slightly paranoid.And it's in my head that it's a bit weak,fragile too.

Like you,i'm not into overfilling with oil as it isn't good to have the crank running even slightly in sump oil besides even just the crank webs 'dipping' in the sump will airiate the sump oil,air bubbles in the oil is bad news.

A deeper sump would be the way and i'm going to look out for a 7A avensis at the breakers for an oil cooler and eBay for a post 05 vvti engine to fully rebuild.

[Flakmann]

Very interesting stuff, I`m taking it all on board..

Keep it coming guys!

[Roker]

If the sump was modified there would be no need for a dipstick with 10mm higher marking, as I said I have been running 18 month plus, with higher oil level with no problems, it even comes out from Toyota services with the higher oil level 4.7 ltr. I would think that the oil level would be way below the crankshaft to allow for the car to lean at angle front to rear, and left to right, also the centrifugal force when cornering would cause problems, so 10mm is a small amount. I have now purchased the modified dipstick so it does not look overfilled, you can recognise it by the green dot on the top. Attached is Toyota modification sheet

Short block replacement.pdf

[Konrad C]

Great post Roker.

The original 1.8 vvti did not have an oil cooler in the Avenesis application, where as the Leanburn 1.6/1.8 engines before were fitted with them.

Last year a poster asked about fitting an oil cooler.

Assuming the short block was modified slightly, there could have been an oppotunity to fit one.

What it tells me is that Toyota basically designed the vvti engine with the incorrect oil capacity and cooling, to help the pistons and rings which were wrong for this engine - which looked good in lab conditions to meet emissions, but had issues in the real world.

4.7 litres is the highest oil capacity of all the engines upto 2 litres, and means you have to buy 4 + 1 litres of oil or two 4 litres once then every 4 oil changes - the other 3 changes you need just one 4 litre to add to the remaining new oil.

If an early Avensis vvti has had the fix or is fine and not had the oil burning problem, then the car should be fine. If oil burning issue developes, the car will be out of warranty and cost is more than the car is worth. That is the risk of buying the early vvti Avensis compared to the older but more trusty 4/7A-FE engined one.

Paperwork to back up history of the car will help the vvti.

[fastbob72]

Thats very true Konrad and perhaps something I've not been appreciating at all.

It probably isn't worth buying an early vvti model,particularly a high miler as the cost of having it professionally fixed would equal or exceed the price of the car itself.

Rebuilding a new short engine and modifying the lubrication system then fitting it would be part a pain in the arse,part a challenge to me.At the end of the day I would/may have to do all the work myself.I certainly wouldn't scrap the car or worse pay someone else to fix it but the majority of people wouldnt feel the same.

Mm,why they never fitted an oil cooler to the early vvti's is a mystery to me.If the 7A-FE needed one it would seem to be common sense that the vvti would too.

I can only assume that the Toyota engineers believed it wasn't necessary or they would have fitted it.Seems they got it very wrong on that one :)

Am going to be actively checking the local breakers for a 7A Avensis I can rob a cooler,pipes,fittingq etc and adapt it to fit mine !!!

I do see the sense though in if you're just after a cheap motor then the earlier GS makes sense :)

[t-spiritpete]

Quote:- Mm,why they never fitted an oil cooler to the early vvti's is a mystery to me.If the 7A-FE needed one it would seem to be common sense that the vvti would too.

Here's a theory you might consider,

the old Carina 1&2 and Carina E built in Japan were exported all over the globe including some very hot and dry places and as I said before you still see them in film footage today in very remote areas. Maybe Toyota Japan just fitted the oil cooler as standard knowing most of them were going to places like that. Now you don't see many T22 vvti's in these films as they wouldn't stand up to the harsh conditions like the Carina E did/still does ...... Just my theory folks! ;)

Pete.