Hand Brake/parking Brake?

[barrycoll]

as my other posts have mentioned, I am buying a 2013 T Spirit this week, and have quite a few queries running around my head

what do other owners do re the neolithic parking brake arrangement when they are in traffic and on a slight incline....

do you hold the car on the foot brake, or do you raise your left leg to touch the head lining, and apply the foot brake??

someone said that there is a P setting on the 'gear stick' , and to hold it on that, putting into D just before moving again

...in my IQ, the engine/CVT creep solves the problem, but there is also a cracking hand brake, just where your left hand falls

using a P position (if there is one) to hold the car, doesn't sound mechanically sympathetic, especially if you got whacked from behind

having almost bought a Mark 7 Golf, with its electric parking brake and automatic hill hold arrangement, the Prius hand brake just feels a bit early 20th century

cheers barrycoll

[Burma Sauce]

Assuming it hasn't changed from my 2008 model, this is what I do.

When stopped at lights etc, apply "handbrake" (i.e. leftmost pedal), and engage neutral if you think it's necessary. To start again, put it into drive and release the handbrake. If you're on an extreme incline, give it more gas as you release the handbrake.

Reasons why you might not bother putting it into neutral, or at least pause for a while: it seems to disable the "turn engine off" logic. Sometimes I don't bother selecting neutral at all, sometimes I wait until the engine turns off and then move it to neutral. Incidentally you have to hold the lever in the N position for a second or two before it selects neutral.

Reasons not to bother with Park: you need to put your foot on the footbrake (i.e. middle pedal) before it will let you switch it back into Drive, which adds an annoying extra step to driving off: right foot on footbrake, engage drive, right foot on accelerator, left foot on handbrake, release handbrake. If you're only in neutral you can engage Drive without pressing the footbrake.

Edit: the Prius also has "creep".

[barrycoll]

blimey burma, maybe I should have bought the Mk7 Golf after all....what a palaver when the Germans have an auto hill hold...

I was trying to ignore the need for the possible use of that foot operated brake, as it is just becoming another clutch pedal, only with I higher leg lift...

if the car has 'creep' built in, how does it manage that if it shuts itself down when stationary???

from the brochure, there is a suggestion that the car has a primitive sort of hillhold, in that the footbrake 'hangs on' for 2 secs after releasing, to allow foot movement to to the gas pedal..

...in my experience with one of these, on our pre IQ, Smart4Two, it made parking really difficult, as everytime you touched the brake pedal during manouvring, the car ground to a sticky halt....painful

fingers X'd that the Prius is a little more sophisticated!

cheers barycoll

[Sooty]

I very rarely use the parking brake.

At lights or junctions I just hold it on the normal service foot brake.

On an uphill incline I do the same as there seems to be a "Anti-roll back" feature that allows enough time to move your foot from the brake to the accelerator without any roll back.

HTH

[Burma Sauce]

barycoll

It's really not a palaver in practice, it works like any other automatic. It has "creep", so that's your hill hold unless it's an extreme hill, in which case you'll need to give a bit more power as you take off the brake (this very rarely seems to be needed). The creep is faked in the car's software, it's not the engine supplying the force, it's the electric motor - so if the engine shuts off there is no change at all.

The hill-hold brake thing you're talking about might be a v3 feature that I'm not familiar with.

[timberwolf]

My first experience of driving automatics was in North America, in every day use I followed what the natives did, you held the car on the brakes against the creep from the torque converter and the nice low rumbling power of V8, as far I could tell everyone seemed to sit at the lights with their brake lights on.

It is even easier in a Toyota Hybrid as the creep is simulated to give the feel of a traditional automatic and it is switched off when you press the brake pedal for long enough.

[ian rooke]

Hi when the car has stopped just push the foot brake hard you will hear a beep and a warning light comes on the dash you can take off most of the pressure from the foot brake when you release the foot brake completely the car will stay stationary for two seconds so you can move to the accelerator and pull away ( it is the Gen 3 that has this)

[barrycoll]

thanks for all the input folks, and it is now sounding a lot less demanding than I first thought...

the built in creep that is 'faked' on the electrics sounds like it solves most situations....

I am coming to the Prius from a Mk 5 Golf Estate 2.0 diesel with 6 speed DSG auto box....creep was not something that should be allowed with this car, as it was a dry plate clutch, and creep was really just 'riding the clutch' as per a manual car...

new clutch coming up, sir, just your credit card is needed!

the dual mass flywheel was another potential problem too, especially if the car was edged forward on minimal throttle, as

then a replacement was ineviteable...

not to mention the diesel particulate filter, that would clog and not regenerate with any run of shortish trips

so the Prius has none of these problems (not even a turbocharger to overheat on the M-way), plus the removal of VAG so called, customer service to plead your case for the repair of a non functioning panoramic sunroof, 3 years and 2 weeks after purchase

regarding the middle pedal footbrake, it would be nice not to to have to show high intensity brake lights to those behind, especially at night and when its wet, and when you are in stationary traffic....which really is the job of a well designed hand brake

I shouldn't reminisce, but when I think back to my old 1964 Mk2 3.4 Jag, which had a really nice fly-off type handbrake , just where your right hand would drop to the outside of the drivers seat , which was nigh on perfect

but now we have progress

cheers folks barrycoll

not to mention the diesel particulate filter, that would clog and not regenerate with any run of shortish trips

so the Prius has none of these problems (not even a turbocharger to overheat on the M-way), plus the removal of VAG customer service to plead your case for a non functioning panoramic sunroof, 3 years and 2 weeks after purchase

[Cyker]

than regarding the middle pedal footbrake, it would be nice not to to have to show high intensity brake lights to those behind, especially at night and when its wet, and when you are in stationary traffic....which really is the job of a well designed hand brake

+1

I hate hate HATE it when I'm stuck behind some idiot who doesn't understand how to use the handbrake when waiting at traffic lights, esp. when the light is some blinding LED job right in my eyeline!

Thank you for you consideration sir!

[wass]

When passing my driving test more than 30 years ago I was examined upon my ability to execute a hill start without the car rolling backwards at all and pulling away smoothly. Prior to my test, I was taught to carry out this manoevre perfectly. Consequently , I have never struggled with it regardless of which vehicle i happen to be driving. The number of experienced drivers who seem to have dificulty with a hill start in a modern vehicle surprises me. Toyotas left foot pedal operated parking brake presents a diferent hill starting technique which I find simpler and safer to use since when the car starts to move, I have both hands on the steering wheel.

[johalareewi]

Toyotas left foot pedal operated parking brake presents a diferent hill starting technique which I find simpler and safer to use since when the car starts to move, I have both hands on the steering wheel.

The gen3 Prius has Hill Start Assist which is the best thing since sliced bread.

No need to involve the handbrake at all.

The Prius keeps the main brake applied while you move your foot over to the accelerator.

With regard to "what to do when stationary", there is a massive thread about this where it was hotly debated.

Basically you have 3 choices (or combination of):

1. Keep your foot on the brake.

Pros: Easy

Cons: Blind the person behind you

2. Press P

Pros: Can take your foot off the brake.

Cons: Have to reapply brake to select D when time to go.

3. Apply the foot operated handbrake

Pros: Can take your foot off the brake.

Cons: Car is still in D

See what you are happy with.

I do option 2. YMMV

[Bibsy]

Weird. My Gen2 doesn't as far as I know, have any kind of hill hold thing, but in all the many thousands of miles I've driven it it's never yet given even a hint of rolling backwards on a hill. Even on the steepest slope I've encountered so far if it's in D it won't go anywhere backwards, no pedals/brakes on at all. It either creeps or stays put, depending on the gradient I guess.

As to technique, for me it's footbrake (ie the "handbrake"), press P, hill or no, unless it's going to be a very short stop. When ready to go, release footbrake, foot on brake, D, release brake, away we go. Seems natural to me, but I guess I've had about ten years of Lexus/Toyota driving so have got used to it.

On the odd occasion I have to go back to fannying about with clutches and handbrakes it feels really odd and awkward.

[johalareewi]

Weird. My Gen2 doesn't as far as I know, have any kind of hill hold thing,

The gen3 Prius was the first to have hill start assist so the gen2 (and gen1) don't have it.

I guess that anything after the gen3 would have it as well (Plugin, Prius+, Auris, Yaris)?

[Aceshigh84]

The Auris 2 does have it. The Yaris doesn't have it, unless it is only available on the hybrid version.

[barrycoll]

thanks for all the advice folks....

in the final analysis, on the pretty flat drive back to London from Yorkshire, most traffic situations did not involve any need for hill hold.....the EV creep made the whole thing very easy

I believe that there is a 2 sec foot brake hill hold, but this will have to be combined with johal's P advice

Johal's advice to use P, solves the problem of showing high intensity lights in a stationary situation, with no need to use the Parking brake...so thanks for that

as I Observe/Teach for the Institute of Advanced Motorists, it is always an issue to put across to new trainees to be considerate to those behind, so a hand brake is advised for a prolonged stop at lights etc.....the reason for this is that if you are tail ended, the first thing that will happen is that the foot comes off the foot brake and you get shoved forward, plus of course the dazzle problem....it is also advised to turn off indicators when stationary, again to be considerate to those behind, and if necessary use again when setting off...

[r04drunner1]

As a long standing IAM member myself, I agree with the advice about consideration and safety. The hill start feature on the Prius is brilliant. Simply push down on the brake pedal extra hard and the car will hold the brakes (RANT ON: No it is NOT "breaks" it is "brakes" - exactly as you put it, so thank you! RANT OFF) while you transfer your foot to the accelerator and prepare to move off.

[Terry953]

as I Observe/Teach for the Institute of Advanced Motorists, it is always an issue to put across to new trainees to be considerate to those behind, so a hand brake is advised for a prolonged stop at lights etc.....the reason for this is that if you are tail ended, the first thing that will happen is that the foot comes off the foot brake and you get shoved forward,....

Absolutely the Definitive and Correct procedure 'barrycoll' but you have missed comment on one other very important issue as has r04drunner1

[Respecting your IAM involvement] that must be considered, and that is the dangerous and potentially damaging practice being recommended on this and others threads of using 'P' instead of the Hand /Parking Brake when temporarily stopped at traffic lights etc.

Operating 'P' engages a mechanical sprag [lever] that locks into the transmission mechanically, effectively immobilising the car.

OK so-far, no brake lights to annoy others, the inertia effect of your foot coming off the foot brake is avoided, but what happens when you do get tail ended?

The only thing stopping you being catapulted into traffic is your mechanically jammed up transmission which will take all the brunt of the force from the impact which it is not made to do - Result a very mangled transmission and an expensive repair will be required.

I contend therefore that 'P' should only be only used for permanent parking, certainly not hill parking.

Long stops at traffic lights etc = Hand /Parking Brake applied - Transmission in 'N'

Short stops at traffic lights etc = Hand /Parking Brake applied - Transmission left in 'D' but this has a detrimental effect of the HV Battery being put under stress as it tries to move the braked car, but OK for very short periods.

Comments from our two AIM members would be interesting.

Oh! to keep on topic I would advise that I have never found the need to use the Hill Start Assist feature on my Auris Icon [Yes it has got one] or got into any difficulty with my first Auris Hybrid [Which didn't have one anyway!]

Is this a feature left over from the American specs to cope with hills like in San Fransico ??

[barrycoll]

well spotted Terry, and something that I had been concerned with....one of the 'headings' that one is asked to consider during IAM training is "car sympathy", and using P as an alternative to the foot/hand brake is potentially tres unsympathetic...

and I also agree with you about not holding the car against creep with the foot/hand brake, without using N....as it happens I always use N with the IQ, but that has a cracking little proper hand brake

so it looks like it is back to putting my left foot on the clutch/foot/hand brake (as it were), which is johal's Plan 3, but adding on the gear into N...

ah well

cheers barrycoll

[Sagitar]

I contend therefore that 'P' should only be only used for permanent parking, certainly not hill parking.

Isn't that difficult to achieve, given that the car automatically engages "Park" when switched off at the Power switch?

[wass]

I use the left foot operated parking brake when I stop with the intention of moving on such as at traffic lights or in a queue of traffic whether I am on a hill or not. I use the "p" position on the gear lever in conjunction with the left foot operated parking brake only when i am parking I do not use "P" for anything other than parking. I have been a member of IAM for more than 25 years and I dont consider that I am any more right than anyone else. I passed the IAM assessment in order to improve my driving skills but dont consider that I am any more capable than any other driver.I just assume that other drivers who arent members of IAM just never felt the need for more training to increase their skills. Whether to use the foot operated parking brake or not has its pros and cons. Some people just find it extremely dificult to use and are probably quite a lot safer in not using it. Some people could use it and prevent dazzling other road users with their brake lights but cant be bothered... In modern driving , maybe some people who arent dazzled by brake lights think that the car in front of them is about to move since they dont see any brake lights..... I dont think there is a right answer because there are so many ways to see the same issue.

[Sagitar]

I agree with wass.

There is also the requirements of the Highway Code to consider when deciding whether or not to have brake lights showing while stationary in traffic. It is not a simple issue.

[kithmo]

I contend therefore that 'P' should only be only used for permanent parking, certainly not hill parking.

Isn't that difficult to achieve, given that the car automatically engages "Park" when switched off at the Power switch?

Kinda makes the "P" button redundant then as you would be switching the car off anyway when permanent parking.

Although I do practice mechanical (and electrical) sympathy with any machine I operate or own, it would be the last thing on my mind if someone rear ended my car, I'd be more concerned with safety, the cost of the vehicle damage wouldn't matter anyway as the insurance would cover it.

I think under normal circumstances (i.e. not being rear ended everytime you stop LOL) using "P" or "N" and the foot operated parking brake in traffic is more mechanically sympathetic than using the foot operated parking brake and leaving it in "D", which would wind up the transmission and put pressure on the brakes.

[Sagitar]

It was the "certainly not hill parking" that intrigued me. I can't think of any way of parking the Prius on a hill without the engagement of the parking pawl. Is the Auris different?

[Opifex]

FWIW when I bought the Prius the salesman told me that when stopping I only need to press the P button and never need to use the parking brake. The mechanics at this dealership must also follow this advice as it was parked on a slope with the parking brake off when I picked it up after a repair this week.

When stopping at lights I normally use the P button and release the brakes. This avoids blinding the driver behind and reduces HV Battery drain as it is no longer trying to move the car against the brakes. The thought of mechanical damage if I am rear-ended doesn't really worry me as the repair cost would be covered by the insurance.

I do use the parking brake If I stop on a very steep hill and then use the hill start feature to set off. When in D position the car will creep on a moderate hill but does roll back if the hill is very steep.

..... (RANT ON: No it is NOT "breaks" it is "brakes" - exactly as you put it, so thank you! RANT OFF) .....

Committed this one myself last week - sorry I agree that spelling mistakes are very irritating - and that includes using American spellings.

Incidentally I am another IAM member - this thread is beginning to resemble that scene in Spartacus.

[Terry953]

I contend therefore that 'P' should only be only used for permanent parking, certainly not hill parking.

Isn't that difficult to achieve, given that the car automatically engages "Park" when switched off at the Power switch?

Sorry chaps got this one a bit mixed up.

I meant not to use 'P' at a temporary hill stop like traffic lights or road junction.

As far as I'm concerned the 'P' button is redundant as you say it is engaged automatically when switching the Power off.

Some of these comments are cringe worthy , but I respect everyones choice to do one's own thing.

One last question, why have a separate 'P' button anyway ? most of the types of mechanical autos have 'P' as just another position on the 'gear' selector along with D-N-R-D1..........

Be interesting to know what a DSA examiner would expect to see if a Hybrid was presented as a driving test vehicle under the Driving Standards Agency (DSA) regulations. Do we have any such people as members?