Rav 4 D4D Poor Starting When Hot.

[Rothers6]

Hi all, We've had our 2004 Rav 4 d4d 2.0 diesel for approx 18 months and a great car it is too! Except for this random fault which is: vehicle will start from cold every time,if started and driven for any decent time then switched off it will reluctantly start and sounds as though the Battery is poor. For example we drove from here in Cornwall to London without stopping,pulled over for a quick toilet break(5mins or so) come out and it will not start??? So all fuel is flowing,battery fully charged on run of that distance and we have to wait 10 mins or so for it to cool down. Vehicle does not overheat and has been serviced at every interval so not a filter issue..... Any thoughts would be appreciated as this follows no mechanical sense.

[igormus]

- SCV possible fault

- el contacts to be inspected;

- MAF sensor;

- the rail pressure sensor el contact;

- starter el contacts to be tighen

another posters will come back soon

regards/Igor

[rambler]

Ive had the same issue with mine for past month or so,ive had a new toyota motor fitted in last few weeks,its improved it a little but i'm still not sure its solved it completely.It cranks the hot engine slightly faster and fired eventually....but its not what i call perfect....i'm not happy with the result to be honest.

[anchorman]

Try pumping the black plunger on top of the fuel filter then try starting it.

[Pogle]

Don't presume as full Toyota service history means the fuel filter has been changed.....

[rambler]

Well yesterday i drove my Beloved Rav4 to Bury St Edmunds for a days walking with friends,It started cold in the morning as per usual ,like a new car in fact.

I drove to the car park,about 70 ish most of the way,its about 50 miles on A12 / A14 to get there.

I pulled in the car park and let it rest for a few minutes after a long hot drive,so the turbo could settle down.

Turned the engine off,had a chat with my walking group about the days activities.

I then had to move the Rav ,as a friend could'nt find the car park,and i needed to find him and guide him in, so after about 5 - 10 mins of it sitting there,i had to re start it.

Hmmmm,i thought,will it re-start.......suprise suprise.....no,the new Battery & starter motor turned the engine over several times for about 10 seconds.

But it would'nt fire.....so ive now left numerous messages on Toyota's answer phone,saying i'm not at all happy that the new starter motor they fitted has'nt solved the problem.

Its going in to for 120'000 service with them next monday,they said bring it in to them with an engine at normal temp and try to replicate what happens when it won't start.

But.........i have asked them to fix it once and paid for it,should i be paying again ?

Tbh....i have been in touch with Toyota customer services uk,they agree with me,if the issue still is still outstanding then no....it should be addressed again until it starts like it does from cold each & every time you trun the key,and i should pay no more money.

I know this thread may be getting boring on here now......sorry

[anchorman]

Jamie - did you pump the black plunger on top of the filter?

I know from previous conversations you are not mechanically minded but you have to stop diagnosing your own problems. Previously you have described the car being slow to start and needing a new Battery and or starter. Experienced mechanics will know that an engine can be slow to crank when batteru or starter problems exist and so your decision to fir those parts does not seem unusual to an onlooker. However, if it is cranking OK and just not firing there can be other reasons and you can waste a huge amount of money by just applying a scattergun approach.

It sounds like fuel starvation or air in the system if it cranks at the right speed and just will not fire. If you pump the filter plunger it will be soft to start with then get harder as it builds up presure in the line from the filter to the high pressure pump. If this is the case and it then starts quite easily we have to work out if it is poor fuel flow (maybe something blocking the pipe) or air getting in as either will prevent the engine from starting. Tell me how many times you pump the plunger till it goes stiff. If you are passing up this way any time soon let me know when and call in to see me.

[rambler]

Jamie - did you pump the black plunger on top of the filter?

I know from previous conversations you are not mechanically minded but you have to stop diagnosing your own problems. Previously you have described the car being slow to start and needing a new battery and or starter. Experienced mechanics will know that an engine can be slow to crank when batteru or starter problems exist and so your decision to fir those parts does not seem unusual to an onlooker. However, if it is cranking OK and just not firing there can be other reasons and you can waste a huge amount of money by just applying a scattergun approach.

It sounds like fuel starvation or air in the system if it cranks at the right speed and just will not fire. If you pump the filter plunger it will be soft to start with then get harder as it builds up presure in the line from the filter to the high pressure pump. If this is the case and it then starts quite easily we have to work out if it is poor fuel flow (maybe something blocking the pipe) or air getting in as either will prevent the engine from starting. Tell me how many times you pump the plunger till it goes stiff. If you are passing up this way any time soon let me know when and call in to see me.

Hi Don

Sorry didnt come back to you earlier,b.band stopped working !.

To be honest i've not tried pumping that button,but i will tomorrow...........since i've had this new starter motor fitted i've filmed on my smartphone every time i try and hot start it.

I now have 6 recordings to show the Toyota engineers,exactly what it did on different days since the work was done....just in case it DOES start when i take it in for its service.(will be just my luck )

When i complained about the fuel filter howling years ago,they watched a film from my phone,and they were grateful of the recording just to see what happens.

At least it shows them exactly what happens,and that the issue is still there.

But i will try that button tomorrow as i have to go out.

And Don........a big thank you once again.

[Pogle]

Anchormans comments make complete sense. I'd be out there now with that plunger to see what happens. My d4d isn't quick when cranking despite an uprated Battery and it doesn't fire up immediately like some other diesels I've had but it always fires up within a couple of seconds. Fuel filter has got to be worth considering as it is not expensive to replace.

[rambler]

Anchormans comments make complete sense. I'd be out there now with that plunger to see what happens. My d4d isn't quick when cranking despite an uprated battery and it doesn't fire up immediately like some other diesels I've had but it always fires up within a couple of seconds. Fuel filter has got to be worth considering as it is not expensive to replace.

Well as its getting dark now,and i've a day off tomorrow,i will take it for a good run again,and try all that.

If it works,well......brilliant,but as far as i'm concerned that should have been picked up by toyota when i took it in last.

I paid them to fix the hot starting issue on my car,they are THE guys who work on these vehicles day in day out, you pay top dealership labour rates to get results.

At the moment,i'm not confident with my Rav4 at all,i know its 11 years old with 120'000 on the clock,but with Chatman on here running his at 175'000 miles .....why can't i ?

I know of a customer of mine at work who has a Toyota Hiace van 51 reg,its pristine condition,the cab looks like new,the body is spotless...he's taken care of it from new,...its done 195'000 miles now ,it starts first time every time and runs lovely.

Why can't mine.................

[anchorman]

It depends what you asked the dealer for. If you asked him to cure an engine that won't start when hot then fair enough but at the beginning you were saying you needed a new starter and Battery. If that is how you approached the dealer then they will be quite happy to take your money.

[rambler]

It depends what you asked the dealer for. If you asked him to cure an engine that won't start when hot then fair enough but at the beginning you were saying you needed a new starter and battery. If that is how you approached the dealer then they will be quite happy to take your money.

When i approached them to diagnose the issue first time Don,they advised me on a new starter motor,they said that was what was needed.In their words " they were replacing the parts that needed replaceing".

I only took them up on their advice to have it done,its what they diagnosed.

So far since they did it,i still have the same problems...although the engine does actually crank now when hot ,and for as long as i choose to crank it for......but it won't fire.

If i let it rest for half an hour,and it cools slightly.....it fires no problem at all.

[anchorman]

OK buddy, see what they say.

[Tech01]

Don / Jamie . . . Not sure if this helps . . . Have picked up on another car site (Citroen) that fuel systems can include a fuel temperature sensor, and these (thermistors) can misbehave, causing poor hot starting. Anything similar on the RAV? (Haven't had time to look myself yet.)

Chris

[Tech01]

1. Have now had a chance to consult the repair manual. There IS a fuel temperature sensor, and it's a part of the fuel supply pump. There are two ways of checking it's ok - first at the sensor itself (resistance reading), and secondly at the ECU end (another reading). You need to be a decent auto-electrician to tackle these checks.

The ONLY reason I have mentioned this is that these items have been known to fail on other vehicles, and they are an obvious check. But so for that matter are other temperature sensors: apart from the fuel temp sensor (THF), there is one for the water (THW) and one for the air intake (THA). Presumably all three affect how the engine will run/start.

2. BUT, you don't need to take on all this detail. If you took the car into the dealer with the complaint "won't start when hot", then it is up to them to diagnose the fault, and fix it. From what you say, replacing the Battery and s/motor haven't effected a fix. That being the case, I would go back to them, and let them proceed further, BUT make it clear that your pocket is not bottomless, and that the fault will need to be reliably sorted before you make any further payment to them.

Ask that they give you their new diagnosis before repairing, together with the costs involved, so you can authorise. When it is sorted (and they have fitted additional parts A,B,C...), let them know that you will need to run the vehicle for a day or three before signing it off.

Do NOT sign off the repair ("untested" or otherwise), but if a signature is required, then add wording something like "Conditional upon satisfactory road testing, between dd:mm:yy and dd:mm:yy" (which must be over several days).

If all works out well, before you pay any monies to them, tell them that you are looking for a significant financial gesture over the Battery and s/motor, which was, in your opinion, their incorrect diagnosis.

If they are difficult, then inform them that you will be seeking an independent inspection from AA/RAC/..., and (if necessary) involving Trading Standards.

_______

I say a lot of this from some bitter experience. Toyota Service, for all their merits, do seem to be more than happy to simply replace everything in sight when a fault occurs, in the hope (often fulfilled) that somewhere in all the replacement the fault will be swatted. This isn't always good enough.

Chris

[rambler]

1. Have now had a chance to consult the repair manual. There IS a fuel temperature sensor, and it's a part of the fuel supply pump. There are two ways of checking it's ok - first at the sensor itself (resistance reading), and secondly at the ECU end (another reading). You need to be a decent auto-electrician to tackle these checks.

The ONLY reason I have mentioned this is that these items have been known to fail on other vehicles, and they are an obvious check. But so for that matter are other temperature sensors: apart from the fuel temp sensor (THF), there is one for the water (THW) and one for the air intake (THA). Presumably all three affect how the engine will run/start.

2. BUT, you don't need to take on all this detail. If you took the car into the dealer with the complaint "won't start when hot", then it is up to them to diagnose the fault, and fix it. From what you say, replacing the battery and s/motor haven't effected a fix. That being the case, I would go back to them, and let them proceed further, BUT make it clear that your pocket is not bottomless, and that the fault will need to be reliably sorted before you make any further payment to them.

Ask that they give you their new diagnosis before repairing, together with the costs involved, so you can authorise. When it is sorted (and they have fitted additional parts A,B,C...), let them know that you will need to run the vehicle for a day or three before signing it off.

Do NOT sign off the repair ("untested" or otherwise), but if a signature is required, then add wording something like "Conditional upon satisfactory road testing, between dd:mm:yy and dd:mm:yy" (which must be over several days).

If all works out well, before you pay any monies to them, tell them that you are looking for a significant financial gesture over the battery and s/motor, which was, in your opinion, their incorrect diagnosis.

If they are difficult, then inform them that you will be seeking an independent inspection from AA/RAC/..., and (if necessary) involving Trading Standards.

_______

I say a lot of this from some bitter experience. Toyota Service, for all their merits, do seem to be more than happy to simply replace everything in sight when a fault occurs, in the hope (often fulfilled) that somewhere in all the replacement the fault will be swatted. This isn't always good enough.

Chris

Wow ! !

Thanks Chris,i do have an auto electrician friend who has almost semi retired ( he fitted me a the new Battery recently ),and has been in the trade for almost 30 years.

He unfortunatly does'nt think much of my Local Toyota dealership,and after them not fixing my Rav the first time round,i'm not exactly happy with them myself.

Anyway,thanks again for this info........wonder how much these sensors cost ?

Are they something that can be simply unplugged & renewed ? ? ?

[Tech01]

The repair manual says that the THF (fuel temperature) sensor can be tested in situ, but, if needing replacement, then the whole of the pump must be replaced!!! Not sure about the other two.

BUT, don't get anxious about parts costs until some specific component failure has been identified. Diagnosis first!

C.

[voyager t180]

Great technical info there Tech (Chris).
But why on earth doesn't MrT go down your suggested diagnostics route??

[Tech01]

No idea. Maybe an alternative approach is more appealing to them sometimes.

[rambler]

Try pumping the black plunger on top of the fuel filter then try starting it.

Hi all.

Right.....this morning i took the Rav4 for a long drive up the A12 and back,engine at normal temp,40 miles driven.

Got home,let it ' wind down ' for a minute or so,.......then turned it off.

Then i gave it about 5 mins,made a cuppa and tried starting it again......bingo,it jumped into life as it should ! ! !.

Hmmm right i thought,try again in another 10 mins........same happened,fired after 3-4 strong cranks,excellent ! ! !

Then i tried again after a further 15 mins........again,fired up again after a few 3-4 cranks ,superb ! ! !

I then tried again,after 30 mins......again it fired after 3-4 strong cranks ! ! !

I was all prepared to try pressing that plunger thingy Don,but didn't need to.

Am slooooooowly getting my confidence back with it,but very slowly.

Its going for its service on Tues,tbh i'm dreading them asking me to HOT start it when i arrive there.IF it starts it will be so embarrasing. after all my complaining.

[anchorman]

Well if nothing has been changed it is strange it now behaves. Whan did you last change the fuel filter?

[voyager t180]

Try pumping the black plunger on top of the fuel filter then try starting it.

Hi all.

Right.....this morning i took the Rav4 for a long drive up the A12 and back,engine at normal temp,40 miles driven.

Got home,let it ' wind down ' for a minute or so,.......then turned it off.

Then i gave it about 5 mins,made a cuppa and tried starting it again......bingo,it jumped into life as it should ! ! !.

Hmmm right i thought,try again in another 10 mins........same happened,fired after 3-4 strong cranks,excellent ! ! !

Then i tried again after a further 15 mins........again,fired up again after a few 3-4 cranks ,superb ! ! !

I then tried again,after 30 mins......again it fired after 3-4 strong cranks ! ! !

I was all prepared to try pressing that plunger thingy Don,but didn't need to.

Am slooooooowly getting my confidence back with it,but very slowly.

Its going for its service on Tues,tbh i'm dreading them asking me to HOT start it when i arrive there.IF it starts it will be so embarrasing. after all my complaining.

I defo wouldn't be embarrassed..get MrT to do a full diagnostic check focusing mainly on the areas Tech suggested..

Bet your life your hot starting problem cant just suddenly repair itself..It will come back when you least want it.

[rambler]

Well if nothing has been changed it is strange it now behaves. Whan did you last change the fuel filter?

Its strange,i just looked at my FTSH ,it was last changed at 80'000,( the service sheet is ticked),and its due another fuel filter change on Tues ( 120'000 ).

Should i ask for all my old filters to be returned to me after the service,just so i know they have def been changed.

After all,i am supplying the oil of my choice ( magnatec ),and it would also eliminate the ' enviromental charge ' for safe disposal

So my service costs may well be reduced.

[anchorman]

No they are stinking things but ask for it to be done again and have a look to see it was done. A permanent marker is a good thing.

[Rothers6]

Hi,based on the great info.posted by all,the symptoms point to Scv valves almost definately! I can find them online and from local suppliers for approx £200 for the pair,does anyone know dealer price or of any recommended suppliers for less??? Thanks again for the help people!!!