Rav 4 D4D Poor Starting When Hot.

[mikez1]

Morning guys,

Well the camshaft sensor hasn't really made much difference although the old one had a couple of mm of garbage stuck on it.. I still need to get to the crankshaft sensor as I have a feeling that could be even worse, but I think its a more involved job and will take a bit of time.

I'll be replacing the coolant temperature sensor today, and then I'm out of ideas I think other than sending it to a diesel specialist.

Will report back once I've managed to get that done (hopefully today).

[rambler]

Thanks Mike, mine has been with Colchester Toyota for two weeks now.

Hav'nt heard from them since Tues evening unfortunately, so my Rav's either sitting there in their compound doing nothing or they are working on it whenever they get time.

Ive heard they are very very booked up at the moment , as my mother has her tried booking her Yaris in for a service shortly.

I'm tempted to give them a ring to chase them up, but I was reassured by their aftersales manager that they would solv this once and for all.

So whilst I drive around in a 13 plate Aygo FO C , i can only await contact from them to see what they find.

[Raistlin]

Don't you just love the Aygo...

[rambler]

Don't you just love the Aygo...

Well to be honest , for what it is........yes.

[mikez1]

Right guys,

Progress so far

Camshaft sensor replaced

Coolant temp sensor replaced

Crankshaft sensor tested

Fuel temp sensor tested

MAF tested

Inlet manifold sensor cleaned

Glow plugs changed

Full service done (oil / air etc etc etc)

Still hot start issues, so its not related to the above for me...

To make matters worse, the turbo started making a really high pitched whistle noises recently so I bought a CHRA cartridge off eBay, fully balanced with test certificate... what an ABSOLUTE chaotic task.... its taken about 12 hours but the result seems to be good, all the high pitched noises gone and the car is much smoother with more urgency. There was a lot of in and out play on the shaft of the old one, and some side to side play which has worn down the impeller blade, and on the exhaust side, a few blade tips were slightly bent, possibly from touching the housing.

The final test I have now is power related, so when it next happens, I'll be hooking up a second Battery to give it more oomph to see if that resolves it.... If it does then I'll take if from there. If it doesn't, it will be diesel specialist time as it could be injectors or anything in the fuel delivery system.

One thing I haven't replaced is the fuel filter top housing which I think someone said fixed their issue as it was causing leak back, but I have tried fully priming it before starting when it does it.... and that doesn't help either.

I'll drop back an update tomorrow. Any news from Toyota with yours yet?

Cheers

Mike

[rambler]

WOW !!!

Did all that , well done Mike.

Unfortunately no , Colchester Toyota came up with nothing, apparently they tried hot starting it on numerous occasions during its 2 1/2 week stay with them.

And it started every time .

Ive had it back from them for 4 days now , haven't had need to try it , but it will be tried tomorrow.

It didn't cost me anything whilst they had it and they even filled it with fuel for me.

So.....we are all awaiting your further work with baited breath.

Incidentley do ours have Dpf valves ?

[mikez1]

We have an Egr valve which I've cleaned completely, aswell as throttle body. I read there was a Toyota bulletin thing for 2 models of car with the 1CD-ftv engine, don't think it was the rav, but that mentioned hard warm start or slower cranking when hot on the 2.0 d4d.... There was a revised starter motor, just trying to find out if they used the same starter motor or not.....

Edit - I'll try bypassing the fuel filter housing for a hot run and see if it could be that going a bit faulty...

[mkeoghan]

Hi all,

Following this post with great interest. I have the exact same issue. Not a problem starting cold or within a 10/15 min drive. But once the engine gets to normal temp after 20 min of driving. If I turn it off it will not restart.....

[rambler]

We have an Egr valve which I've cleaned completely, aswell as throttle body. I read there was a Toyota bulletin thing for 2 models of car with the 1CD-ftv engine, don't think it was the rav, but that mentioned hard warm start or slower cranking when hot on the 2.0 d4d.... There was a revised starter motor, just trying to find out if they used the same starter motor or not.....

Edit - I'll try bypassing the fuel filter housing for a hot run and see if it could be that going a bit faulty...

Ok dokey Mike ....

Over the years I've had the VSV , EGR valves both cleaned and one more but can't remember what its called.

A customer / mechanic said to me last week that it could well be the two rubber O rings on this DPF valve have worn out ?

He's a citroen , Peugeot specialist really but he runs a very small garage in Colchester.

[mikez1]

Well... I've managed to make it start when hot and playing up by hooking up the other car Battery to mine to give it some extra grunt... It made it start first time absolutely perfectly. At this point I'm either thinking about masking the issue by fitting a monster Battery, or getting the injectors tested. There's obviously a lack of power somewhere when hot causing something not to operate properly, have read about injectors leaking back doing the same thing mine does.

[rambler]

Well... I've managed to make it start when hot and playing up by hooking up the other car battery to mine to give it some extra grunt... It made it start first time absolutely perfectly. At this point I'm either thinking about masking the issue by fitting a monster battery, or getting the injectors tested. There's obviously a lack of power somewhere when hot causing something not to operate properly, have read about injectors leaking back doing the same thing mine does

Mike , you mention the ' extra ' Battery , when I had my worn out Halfords Battery replaced last year , it was replaced by a Yuassa professional one....but I noticed very slightly less cca on the label.

Think from memory it was about 20 amps less powerful.

Could this really make all the difference ???? If it does ill invest in a more powerful Yuassa one , just for peace of mind.

[mikez1]

At the moment I honestly couldn't say... I've had my Battery replaced recently with a Halfords calcium one that is rated ever so slightly higher than the standard, soon after these problems have started. The problem I have now is that I could probably mask the issue, but if it is injector leak back that is requiring more power to get everything going - then could it damage the cylinders eventually due to them not being 100%? My worn turbo core could also be the reason for higher fuel usage as I had to give it more right foot to get up to speed on the motorway.

Its a tough one as its at 130,000 miles and I've heard about the denso injectors having problems... I may get them tested and if proved to be the fault, maybe have them reconditioned rather than buy new.... can't justify the price of brand new injectors on a car of this mileage and age.

Have you watched your engine when the problem occurs its cranking? Does it rock like crazy? Mine does and I can't believe that getting more Battery power on it makes it work....

Have you some jump leads and a car that you can use to test it when it happens? Hook it up to theirs and then crank yours... bet you it starts fast. Gives you something to go back to Toyota with.

Edit - Whilst it was happening I ruled out the fuel filter housing by setting ignition to on (engine not started) and pushing the plunger until solid, tried it but still a no go.

This problem is driving me CRAZY. With all this work it is super smooth - like a new car, but we can't enjoy it as we know whats going to happen whenever it gets hot!

[rambler]

Yes its tricky , re mileage & age but I like my Rav4 , it is easily the best vehicle ive ever had.

Ive been warned re jump leads about destroying ecu on other vehicle.

As you say , when its running well its a dream to drive , just a shame for this issue.

My point is I know several Toyota vehicle owners who's vehicles are near 200'000 and kept , maintained well.

I really dont want to sell mine & see someone else with the pleasure of it...as mines dent free , very clean inside & out.

I like doing maintenance on it to look after it , but I'm no mechanic I'm afraid.

[mikez1]

The cars sound, solid bodywork and comfortable and with the amount of stuff I've done it's smooth as can be for its mileage. We just need to pinpoint the problem area. I was just interested to see if yours started first time with more Battery power behind it.

Ide get an injector leak back test kit but chances are ide use it once and never again so will give my local diesel centre a call to see what they can do, will report back again on next steps for me

[rambler]

The cars sound, solid bodywork and comfortable and with the amount of stuff I've done it's smooth as can be for its mileage. We just need to pinpoint the problem area. I was just interested to see if yours started first time with more battery power behind it.

Ide get an injector leak back test kit but chances are ide use it once and never again so will give my local diesel centre a call to see what they can do, will report back again on next steps for me

Ok dokey Mike

Ive always liked cars , so am very envious of what you are able to do.

But modern vehicles are just too complicated for me , I do what I can though.

I will research as bigger ampage Yuassa Battery as I am able & maybe get one in next week or two...see what happens.

[Mike169]

Hi guys, excuse any typo's as i am typing 1 handed due to a broken wrist, lol.

I am a bit of a Battery person and yes maybe i go a bit over the top but my intention is always to give myself as much reserve capacity as realistically possible.

Imagine your Battery is like your bath with it full of water and the plug out so if the water is draining out, how much water is in the bath will determine how long it will take for the water to drain away and the tap refilling it can represent the alternator...so more water, i.e. bigger Battery represents more 'omph' so you have more reserve capacity to start the car on a cold day. When you are driving if you have lots of electrics on, heated rear window, air con, fan heater, lights etc the the battery will drain and hopefully the tap/alternator will replace the electricity used but crawling in slow traffic you will be running the battery down faster than it is being replenished, i.e. the tap running/ alternator charging, so the bigger the bath, i.e. the battery casing, the bigger the capacity, CCA's the better it is....if a bigger battery will fit the tray, it clamps down ok and the leads fit ok then i always go for as big as i can go that way i feel if ever i got a flat battery then at least i know i went as far as i could to stop any problems. If my wife takes the car out i know it is battery wise as good as i can get it.

I have a boat, it had 3 x 95 amp batteries making a capacity of 285 amps, i changed the system to 4 x 125 amp batteries giving me 500 amps of power as out at sea you can't call the A.A. or similar so i have increased my reserve power by say 40% so if ever it won't crank over long enough to start which i very much doubt at least i know in my head i have done as much as possible to make the boat as reliable as possible, this same logic of course transfers into the car world.

A bigger battery will cost more but because it does not have to work so had will last longer so long term is not dearer and you always have a bit more capacity/reserve power if needed.

Regards Mike169

[mikez1]

Hi Mike169,

A bigger Battery would certainly mask the issue if there is one, but I am going to take the injectors off and have them tested to make sure they are all ok, given that I have higher diesel consumption etc it makes sense. If they are all ok, then a massive Battery is what I will be installing.

[PumaWestie]

Whereabouts are you located? If you are going to take the injectors out, might as well do a compression test as well

[CJ Barnes]

Well, no more hot starting issue for me. What fixed it for us is that the turbo gave up the ghost and dumped a slew of oil down the intake, probably bent a rod as well, great!! So, that'll be a new thread for some opinions, etc... Best of luck, and maybe I'll be back on this thread if we fix the Rav.

[Mike169]

Hi Mr Barnes

You poor 'thing', words fail me, all i can say is let us know how you plan to get on.

All the best, Mike

[rambler]

Well, no more hot starting issue for me. What fixed it for us is that the turbo gave up the ghost and dumped a slew of oil down the intake, probably bent a rod as well, great!! So, that'll be a new thread for some opinions, etc... Best of luck, and maybe I'll be back on this thread if we fix the Rav.

Oh crikey !!!

So very sorry to hear that news , when my turbo blew last may I had to make a horrible 11 mile drive to local Toyota to get it replaced.

It was the worst 11 miles I had ever driven , literally 10 to 15 mph at best , with smoke pouring out of the exhaust and keeping the revs as low as possible. ...took about an hour to drive there.

I dreaded the turbo disintegrating into the engine.

What ever you do , I truly wish you all the very best.

[Must Be Mad]

Hi.

I bought my 2002 Rav4 2.0 D4D 5DR GX (100k miles) a few weeks ago and have already spent nearly £1,700 on it!

But that's by-the-by. I kind of knew that I would have to sort a few things out. This did include a garage fitting a new clutch, DMF (had an SMF on it) and timing belt to be fair, but the total also included the price of a new starter motor and Battery which I've just finished fitting myself today.

I had the infomous 'poor starting when hot' problem and after reading many threads on the subject thought I'd have a punt at seeing if a new starter and Battery would cure the problem. I'm no mechanic BTW.

In my opinion, my Rav4 looked like it had the original Toyota starter motor fitted with following P/Ns printed on it :-

Toyota 28100-64300 / Denso 228000-3622 (if you Google it, it's the 1.4Kw one).

The Battery was a 17 month old Numax 249H (Capacity- 95 Ah, CCA- 730 A)

http://www.tayna.co.uk/249H-Numax-Car-Battery-P1020.html

Although it started OK when cold (after a few cranks) it always felt a bit slow, unwilling, weedy and just too darn long to fire up.

So, I bought these two puppies and fitted them both at the same time ...

Varta G7 Battery (Capacity- 95 Ah, CCA- 830 A) Comes ready charged

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/G7/

LUCAS ELECTRICAL LRS01591 Starter (2.2Kw)

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Toyota_Rav-4_2.0_2002/p/car-parts/car-electrics-and-car-lighting/electrical/starter-motor/?402820761&1&c5d2c7f6d0f18436c46ec4b33371f027b13bdf80&000308

http://www.niparts.com/Fac/D89BEF/LUCAS-ELECTRICAL/LRS01591.html

The starter motor was a bit of a pig to fit without prior knowledge, but with hindsight it's not too bad once you know how to.

[Tip: As part of the obvious things you'll need to remove, I found it easiest to unbolt some of the external gear cable assembly first (Not as bad as it sounds) to get access to both starter motor bolts. You'll know what I mean if you have this type of model. The bolts are kind of hard to find initially, but no doubt easier with the Haynes manual (currently on order!)]

The Lucas starter is longer than the original 1.4kw one and looks like it's never going to fit, but with a bit of perseverance it actually does!

**** what a difference. It now consistently starts both cold and hot. I estimate it takes somewhere between 1 to 2 seconds to fire up. I can happily stand outside of the car & start it. It sounds way happier, livelier and beefier in every way.

So there you have it. Only time will tell. Could be circumventing another problem knowing my luck, but fingers crossed.

Early days, but rest assured I'll post an update if I'm not 100% convinced it has cured the problem.

Just take it that no news is good news!

Hope this helps someone :)

Regards

Pete

[Mike169]

Top man, nice to see someone who likes to repair his car the best he can!

Mike169

[rambler]

So .......

A high 830 cold cranking amp Battery and a "2.2kw"starter motor seems the way to go.

[mikez1]

I bought a 1000amp 95ah Battery for mine and have been giving it chance to settle... So far so good though. It is now starting when hot, still a very minor stutter which could be the starter motor since I've only cleaned and repaired it (1.4kw). Coupled with all the work I've done on it (busted turbo replaced, Egr clean, throttle body clean, sensor cleaning and testing etc) it's now behaving like a different beast