Poor Yaris Hybrid Mpg?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Well there's always public transport and bicycles! ;)

Roll on hydrogen...

(Or a better way of storing electricity!)

Hydrogen eh? Because Clarkson says it's the future?

Be open minded and read up on the **** loads of electric that it takes to produce hydrogen. Then the difficulties of storing it and transporting it. Then you have tens of thousands of fuel stations to convert. Who pays for all that?

Remember lpg? Now multiply the costs significantly.

Oh and fuel cell cars have significantly sized batteries inside them for peak power requirements. Then you have a tank of hydrogen sat behind you at something like 15,000 psi!!!

Or you could just have a slightly larger Battery that will go 200+ miles; technology is there but still costs £50,000 for the car that is actually available unlike hydrogen fuel cell cars which are always 5 years away and cost £250,000+. Everyone has access to electricity either via their garage or their street. Much easier that an entire hydrogen infrastructure.

And one last question to ask yourself. People ridicule electric cars because they might run out of charge miles away from a plug. OK, I get that. The Tesla S can go 300 miles between charges but that still might not be enough if you're a national sales rep. But let's just say you had a hydrogen car next year. Where you gonna go? You have a 300 mile range. OK, you can pretty much go 150 miles away from the nearest hydrogen station. The 300 mile range electric car can go 300 miles and then top up at any plug.

One last point on electric cars. You need to get into the habit of topping up every night and will always have a 'full tank'.

I'd also suggest you drive an electric car. Instant torque, fast acceleration, thrown back into your seat. The Mitsubishi i is a boring car but so is the Skoda 1.0 diesel. The Tesla S isn't and gets 0-60 in 4.2 seconds and goes over 300 miles on a charge and costs £70,000, but those performance figures in a petrol car of similar size will cost the same.

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

A G-Wiz was crap, but so was an Austin Allegro. Not all electric cars are crap. Clarkson is funny, but not always right.

People took and take the ***** out of my Prius. That's their choice. But you don't hear me complaining about the cost of petrol ever ;)

[Cyker]

Sorry mate, didn't mean to offend...

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Sorry mate, didn't mean to offend...

lol. You didn't (why do you think I'm GRUMPY cabbie).

Though I do get a little upset when people say 'hydrogen is the future'; if you hadn't noticed :)

It is, but also isn't.

[Sagitar]

I think Grumpy is right, but it could come in time. Hydrogen fuel cells are already being used in certain niche areas but I see no evidence that the problems associated with bulk hydrogen generation, storage and transportation are any nearer to being solved. Here is a link to a thread that I contributed to in 2010. http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/117614-things-to-come/

I have since checked on progress but I see no sign of significant movement. Germany is still a leader in the field and they plan to have 1000 hydrogen fuelling stations by 2017. I think there were only about 15 at the end of last year so they have some way to go. To put it into context, Germany has about 14,000 petrol filling stations.

Bulk hydrogen generation remains energy intensive and the losses associated with storing and transporting hydrogen are huge.

The Germans are throwing a lot of money at it. Does anyone know of any sizeable initiatives in the UK?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Well I do get ratty about hydrogen as every man and his dog says it's the future and the most abundant element in the universe etc. It is, but it's stuck to all sorts of other stuff and to refine it takes a LOT of electricity. There may be 'green' ways of generating that electricity. But those same arguments could be used for electric cars. Storage of hydrogen is a big concern apparently as the small molecules under super high pressure like to seep through the tanks and into the atmosphere. Same applies to the hydrogen tank in your car.

IMHO all hydrogen would be beneficial for is future HGVs and commercial vehicles, maybe like taxis. The reason the likes of Shell and BP like hydrogen is that it enables them to continue producing 'something' for everyone to run their cars on. To keep us all on their financial leash.

Electric cars (excluding the Renault Zoe) can be topped up at any plug, any where. New ones can go 300 miles for £60,000 or 200+ for £50,000, or 100 miles for £20k. You can produce your own fuel for the life of the car via solar if you so wish. No more getting all cross because petrol has gone up again, or worrying about sudden increases in fuel price because a war in the middle east has started up again. Just plug your car in on an evening and job done.

Clarkson likes to peddle the belief that EVs are like the Gwiz, but new ones are anything but. They are still pricey but coming down in price and nowhere near as expensive as fuel cell vehicles.

[PeteB]

...Clarkson ... aka "Klaxon" on the Yahoo Prius-UK Group

... likes to peddle the belief that EVs are like the Gwiz, but new ones are anything but. They are still pricey but coming down in price and nowhere near as expensive as fuel cell vehicles.

I must say I like the look of of the BMW i3 with range extender - except I've got nasty feeling it doesn't have a spare wheel...

[Ethanedwards]

Remember lpg? Now multiply the costs significantly.

Yes I remember LPG in fact I sold my X-trail which I had converted to run on LPG just two weeks ago. Superb technology I don't know why it didn't become huge. How else can you run a big thirsty car for peanuts. I sold my Nisssan Note (also LPG'd) for the Yaris HSD - working out a little cheaper to run but the LPG Note was pretty close. Not on paper but real world.

You can store LPG it's a big molecule. We're sitting on top of lots and lots of Shale Gas that'd be perfect for running transport (assuming you meet all the greenie weenies and have them shot) . So I hope it has a future. At least you can store it easy. Hydrogen being a very small molecule ..if you leave your car for two weeks like say at an airport the go go gas has all leaked away. Unless you go to exotic inefficient storage methods eg metal hydrides etc. Not so with good old LPG - just a simple tank...with very thick strong steel walls. Simples - just remember to fit flashlube.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I was meaning remember the hassle of actually finding somewhere that sells it. In my town there are 2 places out of 10 fuel stations.

LPG infrastructure is much much cheaper than hydrogen, yet look how few and far between filling stations are (I appreciate some areas will be ok, but nationally it is hit and miss). Why would the introduction of hydrogen be any more successful considering the greater cost and harder storage. As said, imagine leaving your car parked for a couple weeks and coming back and all the fuel has disappeared into the ether.

I do agree that lpg has much potential for many reasons. It's big in Italy and Australia but just fizzled here. Saying that, I know more taxi drivers were going the lpg route as diesels with all their dpf issues were becoming more hassle than they were worth.

[RunningInPleasePass]

It looks like a LPG range extended plug-in hybrid is the answer?

[kithmo]

When I looked into it about 10 years ago, LPG was not good for cold starts and the cost to convert outweighed the benefits for me due to the fact I do only 6k miles a year, mostly a 3 mile commute and the LPG had to be warmed up by the engine coolant before it would switch over from petrol. Is this still the case ?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

When I looked into it about 10 years ago, LPG was not good for cold starts and the cost to convert outweighed the benefits for me due to the fact I do only 6k miles a year, mostly a 3 mile commute and the LPG had to be warmed up by the engine coolant before it would switch over from petrol. Is this still the case ?

Pretty much yes.

And yes it is possible to convert a Prius to lpg and a few have.

[alangium]

I am hoping for some helpful expert opinions and advice.

I recently bought a new Yaris hybrid. It's a really lovely car and I'm very pleased with it - however, the MPG doesn't seem to very good. I've done research on how to get best MPG and my wife and I are doing all the right things - driving in ECO mode, careful with braking, anticipating road conditions, getting into EV mode whenever possible, etc. I am only getting 48 - 50 MPG.

Although this seems lower than I expected, is this probably right, or should I be doing more?

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Wayne

I am hoping for some helpful expert opinions and advice.

I recently bought a new Yaris hybrid. It's a really lovely car and I'm very pleased with it - however, the MPG doesn't seem to very good. I've done research on how to get best MPG and my wife and I are doing all the right things - driving in ECO mode, careful with braking, anticipating road conditions, getting into EV mode whenever possible, etc. I am only getting 48 - 50 MPG.

Although this seems lower than I expected, is this probably right, or should I be doing more?

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Wayne

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Don't 'try' and get into EV mode.

Just drive the car normally, check the tyres are at the correct pressures. That's it.

If you try and keep the car in 'ev' then it will initially do massive mpgs BUT will run the Battery low and the engine will have to run harder to top it up. Left to its own devices the car will balance the correct rate of EV and petrol and you will get good mpgs.

Seriously, just drive the car normally and ignore the EV gauges. Maybe reset your mpg trip computer to see the difference.

The hybrid isn't an electric car. It's a petrol car with electric assistance.

[Ethanedwards]

I was meaning remember the hassle of actually finding somewhere that sells it. In my town there are 2 places out of 10 fuel stations.

LPG infrastructure is much much cheaper than hydrogen, yet look how few and far between filling stations are (I appreciate some areas will be ok, but nationally it is hit and miss). Why would the introduction of hydrogen be any more successful considering the greater cost and harder storage. As said, imagine leaving your car parked for a couple weeks and coming back and all the fuel has disappeared into the ether.

I do agree that lpg has much potential for many reasons. It's big in Italy and Australia but just fizzled here. Saying that, I know more taxi drivers were going the lpg route as diesels with all their dpf issues were becoming more hassle than they were worth.

Yes you need infrastructure. Whilst on paper I have 5 garages selling it between my home and where I work. All only have the one pump. One seems to be permanently 'sold out mate' and the two Total garages became Shells...closing for weeks for the re-branding. Then they had shiny new pumps all round except for the LPG. Plus I have lost count of the time I spent waiting for planks to move their cars so I could get next to the single LPG pump. I'm guessing but I think LPG availablity will only get worse from now on. Which is a shame. So I bailed and have one TD and my Yaris Hybrid now.

Like you GC I groan inwardly when people enthuse about Hydrogen. Because I know the infrastructure is NEVER going to be put in place in this country. It's pie in the sky.

The pumps are too dangerous. Way more dangerous than LPG ones.

I have seen many examples where dappy er persons have driven off with the LPG hose still attached. Which meant I couldn't buy any. With the small toroidal tank I had fitted and my 75m a day round trip I was buying LPG every other day. Now these drive offs were merely inconvenient. You use Hydrogen and a drive off will leave the filling station in a small crater. Hydrogen the future? No way. Couple that with basic Chemistry. Take H2O . The Hydrogen bond is very strong indeed. You need to supply a vast amount of energy to break it. It's desperately inefficient. You'd need the whole planet covering in solar cells to electrolyse enough hydrogen from water to run the UKs transport alone. Hydrogen the future? Hooey.

[RunningInPleasePass]

It's not for wimps this LPG conversion thing!

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/11/toyota-prius-taxi-blows-up-in-barcelona.html

[johalareewi]

The Hydrogen bond is very strong indeed. You need to supply a vast amount of energy to break it. It's desperately inefficient. You'd need the whole planet covering in solar cells to electrolyse enough hydrogen from water to run the UKs transport alone. Hydrogen the future? Hooey.

Commercial hydrogen is usually obtained from hydrocarbons. The kind of stuff we put in our cars!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

[Parts-King]

Well there's always public transport and bicycles! ;)

Roll on hydrogen...

(Or a better way of storing electricity!)

There is no "one size fits all" for the future, there will be very many different technologies available. Some (most) people will be able to make use of EV cars, others will be a combination of hybrid, petrol,diesel and fuel cell. Toyota are constantly developing all those technologies and indeed will bring to the market a fuel cell vehicle by 2015. Cost and infrastructure will make or break fuel cell technology. Toyota are committed on all fronts to a low carbon future and this Government is very supportive of low carbon vehicles, so I guess that is what you will see if there is a financial incentive to make them available to the mass market

Kingo

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I don't believe it PartsKing.

Two years ago I went to an 'eco' car show in London whose name escapes me now. They had a fuel cell car from Hyundai that was to be released 'next year'. As release should have been last year, it appears it never happened.

With fuel cells I'll believe it when I actually see one for sale. Read the word sale, not lease ;)

I think Toyota have given up on BEV in favour of hydrogen, but may possibly dropped the ball there. I'll repeat it again, everyone mocks BEVs as you have to stop to charge when low - over 200 miles in the case of the £50k Tesla S. But hydrogen cars are even less use as their infrastructure isn't even here yet meaning sales are restricted to within a few miles of a hydrogen filling station. Even one 10 miles away is no use. I for one wouldn't drive 10 miles to fill up.

There is a use for hydrogen, but it's not going to be viable for Joe Bloggs for years. Think BEV sales are poor, wait til fuel cells come out; more expensive, more complicated, less places to fill up and more expensive to fill up than a BEV.

[paul.r]

Have to say,what an interesting and informative thread this is..BEV,fuel cell,hydrogen etc..but..i will stick to my Prius for the time being,my max fuel economy of 75mpg and 60+ just running about locally is ok by me....if any excitement is needed . i shall go out on my motorcycle...when the sun comes out..of course...

[GSC112]

I have a June 2013 Yaris Spirit Hybrid I have now reached about 7000 miles and I only achieve 49/50mpg average on each tank full, I also have tried driving like "miss Daisy" keeping it in Ecco mode and also driving it normally. The worse average I achieved was 46 mpg and the best was about 53/4 mpg calculated by brimming the tank and taking mileage and calculating the result . The Inboard computer was slightly different but always in the same ballpark.

Considering I used to get 43/44 average per tankful and regurally achieved 52/53 on motorway journeys this was with my previous car (mercedes c250 cdi 204bhp Diesel) I traded in trying to be environmentlaly friendly and also to save money.

I am quite disappointed how different that the claimed mpg figures are from the actual figures. (Other companies seem to be able to achieve much closer results!!)

[FROSTYBALLS]

From the Honest John Real mpg information for the current generation Yaris, some owners getting up to 93% of the EU fuel consumption figures - the 1.0 litre 91% and the 1.33 93%. So for certain versions of the Yaris, Toyota are getting much closer results:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/yaris-and-yaris-hybrid-2011

[Grumpy Cabbie]

And considering my average over 35,000 miles running my Prius in a congested town came out at 49.9 mpg, I am struggling to see how a more efficient Yaris HSD got worse than that and how a larger Mercedes diesel got more. Considering I also have figures of my Peugeot diesel 406 and Mercedes diesel taxi that barely scraped 30 mpg, I can't see how the member the new member got mid 50's out of their Mercedes.

Unless of course they're comparing apples with pears that is? But it's all subjective. If I saw their fuelly stats over 12 months for both vehicles running the same routes, then I'll personally dismiss their comments.

[paul.r]

,

I can't see how the member the new member got mid 50's out of their Mercedes.

A few years ago i was running a Mercedes 220 cdi E-Class elegance with an auto box,the fuel consumption was excellent for a large car with an auto box too..the best i ever achieved ..more than once ...was 56 mpg,it would happily do 45-50 just using locally...but that was taken on seperate trips..over 12 months average i very much doubt it would be any where near the lower figure..maybe in the mid to high 30s,which is still very good for a large motor....just to add a month ago i had to go to Keadby, which is just over 40 miles from me..my Prius averaged 78.5 mpg going there..i had to look more than once to believe it myself..must be downhill most of the way :D :D :D

[kithmo]

Comparing apples in the summer with pears in the Winter more like GC.

I once (and I stress once) got 74.6 mpg indicated on the trip of my old Mondeo MK3 TDCi manual, coming down from Bridlington to the M62 which soon dropped to 55 mpg once I hit the motorway.

I also once got 93.3 mpg indicated on the trip of my old Gen 3 Prius going from Rotherham to the ring road on the outskirts of Lincoln, this dropped to 74 mpg on the whole journey to Mablethorpe.

Both these examples were on warm summer days, light traffic, keeping below the speed limits and on A Roads.

Comparing the pears, Dark winter mornings/nights, short 3 mile commute to/from work, -5 deg C or less, defrosting screen before setting off and HI heater settings etc. both cars would do around an indicated 39 mpg.

I'm comparing a 2.0 manual Diesel with a 1.8 petrol auto here.

I would expect maybe a little more from a Yaris hybrid, although you have to remember, at 7k miles, the engine has not loosened up yet and the winter months take their toll, especially having the heater on. It may get phenomenal mpgs in the summer.

[timberwolf]

I call it the winter hybrid blues.