Egr Problem

[sweet-dentist]

Make that two Bob (pun not intended)

I had a letter back from VOSA 12 September 2012 which stated they had

reported my concerns to Toyota UK who in turn contacted the dealership

to look into the problem. After persistence by phone and letters

problem sorted - new EGR valve.

JC

Sorry Gearthe2nd,

They do NOT change the EGR-Valve... they change the exhaust-catalyst only and a lot of seals... It could be that they clean the EGR-valve... with lots of other cars this is a common action.

Also letting the car run at higher revs can help keep the EGR-valve clean.

Cause of the problem is the wrong type of catalyst-pipe-built.... and not the EGR-valve...

It's the soot from the pipe that comes off from the exhaust-catalyst..before the catalyst. In the newer version this is after the catalyst.

In my car they did NOT change the EGR-valve.

Here the list what has been done:

And here the amount it would cost (this was before it was granted as a service-recall-free-thing...

http://s676.photobucket.com/user/realbutcher/media/EGR-perikelen-/Toyota-Hoofddorp-iQ-nulfactuur-1-_zps21f90851.jpg.html'>

All in EURO's...€€€.... :-D

[2ndGear]

Sorry Peter, I stand corrected, you are right, I
should have mentioned egr parts and not valve. Its just most people
refer to the egr valve. It was me being lazy and inaccurate. I was
letting bob know he's not the only only one to officially report the
problem.

Regards

JC

[sweet-dentist]

No need to apologize ... JC / 2ndGear... and you are not lazy... it ís a strange problem...

I (also) always thought the problem was in the EGR valve and the solution was replacing it.

Later I noticed that in a lot of cars..specially the Diesels....this valve would be cleaned every so and so miles.

Now it turns out it actually is caused by this placement of the pipe (leading to the Valve)... and for that Toyota has made a completely new exhaust-manifold AND a new catalyst-part, that comes after that..

I really wonder if this problem can not be solved just by making more revs and heating the engine more / cleaning by burning fuel. Or putting extra in the fuel... Or using special fuel (Like Excellium or V-power...???

PS

After this changing of the parts.... I still have that when I shut the engine off at a roadcrossing at red light. The engine can sometimes be very slow and powerless after the lights go green and I can drive away... Still something? Or a reaction of the ECU to the amount of unburnt fuel ???

So the feeling is sometimes still there...strangely enough...

[tarquin]

Same here Peter,

If i slow down to a crawl then need to pull away quick, then the car responds very quick but if i have actually stopped then it can be a bit of a slow pull away. I put mine down to the larger wheels but not sure if its constant. I think it depends if the road is flat or down hill. Certainly trying to pull away up hill is not good

Not hesitant like with the old EGR but a bit gutless (under powered)

David

[bobkneale]

Yes I am aware that they do not change the actual EGR valve, I guess that the old pipe set up is more prone to getting the EGR valve blocked ????

I run BG44 cleaner through my IQ every 6 months plus only use Shell V power, and give it a blast at high revs every now and then to clear it out, not sure if this is all required just do it anyway.

Any views on that ?

[2ndGear]

Food for thought, a quote from Pistonheads forum 3 years ago -

“The biggest problem with them is that they let all the soot and rubbish

from the exhaust clog up the inlet. This not only lowers performance
but makes the emissions worse and reduces engine life - it's a
fantastic own goal by the environmentalists. They may work OKish when
the engine is new but after just 10,000 miles they can clog up, fail
to close properly, waste boost pressure, increase emissions
etc Black it off and if possible, clean the inlet manifold -
your engine will run much smoother, quieter, be more economical and
make the same power it ought to have done and the emissions will be
lower than with a clogged up, dirty, leaking engine. I believe
they were fitted as a result of an EU directive, a political solution
to a problem which didn't exist rather than an engineering solution
to a genuine problem”.

Back to me - I did not see the parts list of my cars modification and I have had no
problems since. If your problem persists perhaps you did need a new
EGR valve all along

[sweet-dentist]

Same here Peter,

If i slow down to a crawl then need to pull away quick, then the car responds very quick but if i have actually stopped then it can be a bit of a slow pull away. I put mine down to the larger wheels but not sure if its constant. I think it depends if the road is flat or down hill. Certainly trying to pull away up hill is not good

Not hesitant like with the old EGR but a bit gutless (under powered)

David

I actually mean the startup after shutting the engine down at a crossing David... So it runs (sometimes) rather slow and "heavy" after restarting the engine after a short break.

It could be that your car shuts off automatically..but I thought you do not have that...

Peter

[sweet-dentist]

Yes I am aware that they do not change the actual EGR valve, I guess that the old pipe set up is more prone to getting the EGR valve blocked ????

I run BG44 cleaner through my IQ every 6 months plus only use shell V power, and give it a blast at high revs every now and then to clear it out, not sure if this is all required just do it anyway.

Any views on that ?

Same here Bob... extra costs is of NO importance (always comparing to my former super guzzler mega car :-) )

Peter

[sweet-dentist]

Food for thought, a quote from Pistonheads forum 3 years ago -

“The biggest problem with them is that they let all the soot and rubbish from the exhaust clog up the inlet. This not only lowers performance but makes the emissions worse and reduces engine life - it's a fantastic own goal by the environmentalists. They may work OKish when the engine is new but after just 10,000 miles they can clog up, fail to close properly, waste boost pressure, increase emissions etc Black it off and if possible, clean the inlet manifold - your engine will run much smoother, quieter, be more economical and make the same power it ought to have done and the emissions will be lower than with a clogged up, dirty, leaking engine. I believe they were fitted as a result of an EU directive, a political solution to a problem which didn't exist rather than an engineering solution to a genuine problem”.

Back to me - I did not see the parts list of my cars modification and I have had no problems since. If your problem persists perhaps you did need a new EGR valve all along

Nope... 2ndGear,

No need of a valve...

This problem is as old as the road to Bethlehem I guess... Many many cars (specially Diesels) have this rerouting the gas back in the engine.

Here: Since the 1960s, vehicle manufacturers have installed Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valves to reduce nitrous oxide (NOX) emissions. The EGR valve recirculates a small amount of exhaust into the combustion cycle. The warmth of the exhaust lets the combustion chambers warm up quickly, while the spent, inert gases keep the chambers from getting too hot when the engine fully warms up. Whether mechanical or electronic, EGR valves open and close to control the gas flow. If left open, the excess vacuum will cause the engine to act like it wants to stall, idling roughly or surging. If the valve stays closed, detonation could occur in the combustion chambers; this knocking or pinging will lower mileage and the lifespan of the engine. To smooth a rough idle or hesitant or surging acceleration, and reduce knocking, clean your EGR valve.

Some people have discussed the completely shutting of this rerouting in the engine...but the ECU can not cope with this..

The EGR-valve only opens in special circumstances.. so not allways...

But the problem was the wrong routing of the exhaust-gas-pipe before the catalyst.

Some pictures: https://www.google.nl/search?q=egr+clogging&client=firefox-a&hs=gKB&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=36HLU_yvEsiIOPChgagO&ved=0CDkQsAQ&biw=1258&bih=665

All about NOx... Here a nice film explaines a lot:

And this explains also: http://www.ehow.com/list_7379595_symptoms-clogged-egr.html

Even some more reading :-)...

Diesel EGR problems

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valves cause more than their fair share of problems. Problems with the EGR system, like so many vehicle problems, are often caused by

a lack of maintenance: diesel owners typically expect high mileages and low maintenance bills. Because owners expect their diesels to go for huge mileages without much maintenance, they don’t pay much attention to their diesel engines until something goes wrong. By then it may be too late. Also, many diesel owners resent paying to have their engine’s EGR valve replaced at a fairly early age (it can be expensive). However, faulty EGR valves can sometimes be fixed by simply cleaning them. Moreover, many EGR problems can be avoided by simply ensuring that the vehicle is maintained regularly and gets a decent blat down a highway at least once a month, with plenty of accelerating and decelerating (pottering around town at low speeds is especially bad for EGR valves).

Many owners have tried to remove the EGR assembly for this reason, but there are lots of fishhooks in the process. The first one is that the removal of the EGR assembly will confuse the ECU and trigger a ‘check engine’ light. There are, however, proper removal kits for those who wish to take this path. This removal kit has blanking plates for the

manifold, together with a custom computer chip that fools the ECU into thinking that nothing’s changed.

There are lots of reasons for removing the EGR, and lots of reasons for not removing the EGR. The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve is an anti-pollution device,

aimed primarily at reducing the amount of nitrogen oxide (NOx) spewing out of the vehicle’s exhaust pipe. The engine produces nitrogen as part of the combustion process. As the temperatures inside the engine increase, this nitrogen and the oxygen in the engine’s combustion chamber can chemically combine to form nitrogen oxides. NOx reacts with sunlight to cause smog. Exhaust Gas Recirculation works by recirculating a controlled portion of an engine’s exhaust fumes back through the engine. The EGR valve is the tap that turns the flow of exhaust gases on and off, hopefully at appropriate times. These recycled, carbon dioxide-rich exhaust fumes cool the combustion chambers

within the engine. This cooling effect lowers the combustion chamber temperature. These recycled exhaust fumes also displace some of the oxygen that would otherwise be drawn into the engine from the surrounding atmosphere. Because the combustion chamber is cooler and because there’s less oxygen, less NOx is produced.

In the real world, EGR valves often don’t work very well. What goes wrong is this: the exhaust gases from the vehicle’s engine contain much more than just carbon dioxide: they also contain dozens of chemical by-products, left behind after the fuel was burnt inside the engine. One of these by-products is a fine dust, known as particulates. This dust is mostly unburnt carbon fuel. The more efficiently the diesel engine burns its fuel, the less carbon dust is produced. However, no diesel engine works with anything like complete efficiency and, over time, the carbon dust inside the exhaust gases begins to clog up the EGR system, reducing the movement of the EGR valve. This clogged EGR valve causes the engine to run badly due to an imbalance in the fuel/air mixture. Because the engine is running badly, the fuel is not being consumed efficiently. Because the fuel is not being consumed efficiently, more carbon dust is produced. Some of this carbon dust within the exhaust gets recycled by the EGR system, clogging the EGR valve still further. The more the EGR gets clogged, the more carbon dust is produced. The more carbon dust is produced, the more the EGR valve clogs. This viscious circle continues until the EGR valve jams completely open or closed.

[FROSTYBALLS]

For information: Toyota Service Bulletin - EG-0064T-0811

[2ndGear]

Extract from a letter I received from Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) Vehicle Safety Branch
September 2012.

“There is no direct legislation that requires a dealership to conduct any Technical Service Bulletin,
however, VOSA would be concerned if the bulletin was in regard to a safety critical repair

and the dealership/repairer failed to follow the manufacturer's advice”.

JC

[bobkneale]

Don't think that VOSA consider EGR problem a safety issue, so no action to be forced upon Toyota to correct it as a re call item..

[RachaelK92]

I've an 09 plate IQ2 and have noticed an issue with the car being sluggish, struggling with hills (I usually have to drop to 1st and rev like mad to get it up a slight incline!) struggling to move off and just losing power. After reading this it does sound like the EGR. I didn't purchase my IQ from toyota and it's now 5 year old, would I be able to take it to toyota to get it sorted or would they have my eyeballs out?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello Rachael - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

There would be no harm in approaching your local dealer, describing the issue you have, and quoting the Service Bulletin number (EG-0064T-0811).

The worst they can say is 'no'.

If they do, have a look at post 58, and try the use of BG44 and a good quality petrol.

[tarquin]

Hi Rachael

Im wondering where you are living. I am on good terms with the dealer where i bought my iQ and had my EGR done for free. I was the first to discover the issue and to find the Bulletin number. Rough normal cost Toyota charge for this work is £900 so if you can get it free it may be worth travelling. But try your dealer first taking the Bulletin number with you and referencing this site

David

[RachaelK92]

Thanks guys :)

I'm in Newcastle ... I always do put good fuel in and it's always up to date with services/MOTs etc and well looked after.

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[RachaelK92]

Well in all fairness I've had a few near misses due to it. It's made me quite a nervous driver now which I've never been. I'll definitely take it to Toyota!

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[davidgilmour]

I don't think I want to see! I'm nervous as it is

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Please write a letter of complaint to toyota. It might save ones life!

[RachaelK92]

I need to take it to them first to diagnose the issue although after reading this I think it's definitely an EGR issue!

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[RachaelK92]

When I've put my reg into to recall checker on toyota website it says my car has not been affected by any recall issues??

I'm thinking maybe spark plugs?

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[davidgilmour]

You have an IQ2? Are they affected at all with the EGR Syndrome? It can't be your spark plugs if your IQ been maintained. Toyota changes them every 60,000 miles. These things last at least 100,000 miles.

[RachaelK92]

It's an 09 plate IQ2.

The garage I take it to (reputable and a family friend) advised the spark plugs did need changing so he's ordered them in (my cars at 62,500)

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[FROSTYBALLS]

I don't think a video of an incident where the accelerator supposedly jammed open has got too much relevance to a car suffering from sluggishness and which struggles up hill. It is about as far apart as where we are and where the incident took place - several thousand miles.

[Andy Kay]

I don't think a video of an incident where the accelerator supposedly jammed open has got too much relevance to a car suffering from sluggishness and which struggles up hill. It is about as far apart as where we are and where the incident took place - several thousand miles.

Useful advice though, especially in these times of increasing "drive by wire" technology. Forewarned is forearmed.

[M3NN0]

Hello Ladies and gents!

My name is Menno and I'm living in Holland. Currently I don't (yet) own a IQ. What disturb's me is the fact (! Toyota) of EGR problems and the high cost of replacement. Imagine buying an IQ and find out after a while its got more costs to come. Now, ofcourse I read some interesting things on this forum, and know what to look out for (large EGR pipe on the exhaust manifold, correct?).

But what if I find an IQ with all the specs that I want, but it's got the old manifold/cat.......... Toyota is gonna laugh at me in the face, I pressume, if I ask if they can change it on warranty (if its got FSH, and still in the 5 (?) year warranty thing)....... What about replacing the cat yourself then? You could buy some decent metal/race cats for fair prices, and the link pipe to the egr you can alter if you got welding equipment (got a TIG set myself). Or maybe alter only the link pipe. Somebody went this route allready? Excuse me for my c*@p English. There's no dutch forum, and I really like the IQ concept.

Cheers, Menno.