Intermittant Starter Problems

[steedee]

My wife owns a RAV 4 2001 GX Automatic (just on 60,000 miles) and yesterday (for the second time in just over 9 months) she called me to say that the car wouldn't start and sounded like the starter motor. I am an ex Rolls-Royce technician and take extremely good care of our vehicles so I knew for a fact it was not the starter/solenoid/battery/dirty contacts/leads, etc. i.e. the "normal stuff". When I got to the car it had been "at rest" for about 20 minutes and had cooled quite considerably so, after a quick check under the bonnet, I inserted the ignition key and she started and ran fine. The exact same fault happened to her about 9 months ago and when the engine had cooled again it started fine.

Pondering this over and as crazy as this may sound; does the RAV4 have a thermal cut out switch on the starter/ignition circuit as little else makes much sense here?

Has anyone else experienced similar problems, if so, what was the cause?

Many Thanks

[silly sausage]

Hi Steve, Had the car been on a long run or was the outside temperature hotter than normal ? I'm thinking along the lines of a poor connection within a multi-plug or even a soldered joint which maybe affected by temperature, hence lifting the bonnet and leaving it to stand for a short while cools the surrounding air and a connection on the offending plug / joint is re-established. Some time ago we had a car which suffered with an identical problem, it was a pig of an issue to solve but that was eventually diagnosed as a connection within a multi-plug in the engine compartment, it was getting hot and eventually contact was broken, with a matter of minutes of been allowed to cool it would make enough of a contact to function again. I've also known ignition switches to present temperature related faults. it might be a worthwhile exercise to separate and visually check all the connections from the ignition switch through to the starter.

Where did you serve your time with Rolls-Royce ? My Dad was a technician with Rolls for 25 years.

[silly sausage]

Just realised it's automatic, maybe check all connections related to the inhibitor switch as well.

[steedee]

Hello there Denshaw and thanks for your responses, in answer; no, the car had not been on a long run, just a few miles to the local gymnasium also, the outside temperature was no hotter than normal (14 degrees C).All multi plugs and soldered joints checked and eliminated plus all connections from the ignition switch down to the starter motor & solenoid plus all connections to the inhibitor switch also checked, no anomalies found by myself and verified when I took the car to Bosch yesterday afternoon to have a full diagnostics check done but, we all know the problem here.....the actual fault has to be present before it will show up on a diagnostics test which, of course, it didn't!!!

This really doesn't make sense so off to see the local official Toyota agent later today and see if they can/will reveal anything further.

BTW, my RR days were based in Crewe, 1971-1974

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club Steve.

When you say it doesn't start, do you mean it doesn't fire or it doesn't even turn over?

[steedee]

Hi Anchorman and thank you for both your welcome to the club and also your message, in answer;

According to my wife (as I was not present at either incident), the vehicle had all the symptoms of a faulty starter motor/low Battery, i.e. when turning the ignition key the starter solenoid would repeatedly click but that was all, the engine (obviously) did not turn over nor fire.

(I go back to my original assumption on this as this is an identical fault to numerous military vehicles that I worked on back in the 70's, all of which had thermal trip switches on the starter/ignition circuits however I have yet to learn of one single production vehicle being fitted with this).

I have been involved with vehicles as both a technician and an inspector for well over 40 years and this truly defies logic unless you adopt the modern ruling of "diagnose by replacement" as if you replace everything you are certain to cure the fault!

btw; Local Toyota Agent totally unable to offer any additional suggestions yesterday!

[anchorman]

OK. The normal process would consist of drop testing the Battery. Even though it has started since, it should not be discounted as they can play some funny tricks. The solenoid clicking is common when there isn't quite enough power to hold the coils in the pre engage starter solenoid. If the Battery checks out A-OK then I would just check the connections on the HT power and earth leads before finally homing in on the starter. The circuit is fairly simple and and as long as it is trying then there is nothing else (park and neutral switches) that could cause the problem. The wiring diagram is attached.

Starter wiring.pdf

[steedee]

Hi again Don and thanks for the additional info however, one of the very first things done was a drop test and HD test on the Battery, ditto both the lt and ht circuits, this is most definitely not a simple fault but thanks for the input.

I just want the fault to return so it can be fully diagnosed.

[anchorman]

Toothache and dentists come to mind!

[crofter]

Hi Steve and may I also welcome you aboard

This type of problem on mine was cured by cleaning the heavy duty contacts inside the solonoid.

If they are badly worn or burnt they are available online for (I think) under twenty quid.

Del

[steedee]

Hi Del and thank you for your post, now THIS really does make sense and well worth checking out which I shall do later today.

Many Thanks

Steve

[three5]

 

Hi Del and thank you for your post, now THIS really does make sense and well worth checking out which I shall do later today.

Many Thanks

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

I had a very similar problem on a Land Rover ( 88 ) many years ago. Del's post prodded some life into my one remaining neuron and I remembered what I did:

The contacts in the starter motor never seemed to last very long and were burnt every time I looked at them. Being used to working on high current contactors ( electric motor starters with silver plated contacts ) I decided to try an experiment. I took the contacts out of the solenoid, turned them flat then polished them with sandpaper. I then covered them with a thick layer of silver solder - probably 1.5 to 2 mm thick and somewhat domed in the middle. After re-assembly I never had a moments further trouble - the bl00dy thing seemed to start if it thought the key was anywhere near!!!!

[steedee]

Hi Chris and thanks for your reply, a great tip and one that I may well adopt today as within the last 20 minutes my wife has just phoned from the local gymnasium stating that the exact same fault has happened again!

Your tip appears sound to me so many thanks for that; Once I get the car back home I can delve further into this and will let you (and all others who have responded) the outcome.

Again, many thanks

Regards

Steve

[steedee]

To all RAV4 owners who have posted responses;

Hopefully the intermittant starter problem has now been resolved as this morning I had the starter motor solenoid stripped down and it was indeed the copper contacts which were badly arced and well worn, these were subsequently replaced at a cost of £12 (!) and, "touch wood" all appears to be fine now, this fault apparently is very common with the RAV4 starter motor solenoid and certainly is far more cost effective than an original replacement starter motor in the region of £245!!

Many thanks to everyone who sent in their responses and suggestions, particularly "Chris" from Yorkshire.

Regards to all

Steve

[steedee]

Also very many thanks to "Del" (Derek) from Nottinghamshire who originally put me on the right track to cure this problem!

Cheers

Steve

[Big Kev]

I shudder to think that Jamie McRambler had this fault too all along with his "hot starting" issues......?

Del......what a guy......award yursell a wee dram......or a sherry.....Crofter Original.......?

Big Kev