Toyota Aygo Mmt Semi Auto Starting Problems

[aygo_girl]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could help me solve my Aygo mystery.

I have had this car under a year an absolutely love it. However, over the past 6 weeks it has suffered with intermittent starting problems. It works the majority of the time but has failed to start three times. I have had it to two separate mechanics and an auto electric mechanic and no one could find an issue with the car. I have yet to take it to Toyota as I felt they fobbed me off when i called, saying it was an old car (07 plate?!?!?) and bound to have some problems starting now and then. This will of course be my next step but hoping to go armed with some info or answers.

The problems, as a semi auto obviously the car must be in neutral to start, as I try and start the ignition nothing happens, the dash lights come on and all the electrics work, but the engine doesn't crank/turnover anything. 2/3 times its failed to start I have eventually managed to start it myself by turning car on and off and messing with the gear stick. Very strange though as when I go through the gears the dash flashes neutral and doesn't change to Reverse, Easy, Manual etc. 1/3 times it has failed to start I had to get AA out, nothing seemed to work, exactly the same problem, failing to crank, flashing neutral, however when the AA man tried to push the car it was actually in gear not in neutral like the dash and stick were showing. This could possibly explain why my car failed to start as it will only start in neutral. Eventually after resetting the Battery the car came back to life.

Any advice or similar problems would be appreciated.

Thanks

Aygo Girl

[Geriatric]

Foot brake must also be pressed

[aygo_girl]

Sorry, missed that out. Yes I always press the foot brake. When the car is playing up the brake goes really hard and unable to depress.

[Geriatric]

The gear indicator should not flash but show N reverse etc as you move the selector without the engine running.

It woud seem that there is something wrong with the posiion sensor especially if you can start it sometimes by waggling the gear stick. Check to see that when it does start that the N is not flashing.

It is not possible to push start a MMT box and the AA man should have known that.

Looks like a visit to Toyota is called for.

[MikeSh]

Mine has refused to turn over a few times, but has always worked on the second or third attempt. It did it first when only a few months old and I had the dealer check it over but they couldn't find anything. It looked/sounded to me like the pinion gear wasn't going into the flywheel. But it hasn't done it for about 6 months now (touch wood).

However, I've not had the strange indications on the dash, so probably not the same thing. As others say it does sound like a linkage or detector problem, which is the cheap one. If the actual electric shift mechanism is goosed it'll get very pricey.

[aygo_girl]

The dash indicators normally work fine, displaying R, D, M etc... It is just when the car is playing up that it flashes N. The AA man tried to push/roll the car to see if it was in neutral which it was not even though it was on stick and dash. It hasn't happened for about a month now and the car has no other problems (touch wood). I am just very wary about where i drive it now encase it refuses to start again.

The electrical mechanic suggested a software update is needed, but I am totally clueless when it comes to stuff like this?!?!?

Just want to have some idea before I take it to Toyota as its £50 for them to plug it into the diagnostic, which has already been done by every mechanic that has seen it and nothing.

[Geriatric]

I think a diagnostics would show nothing as the MMT ECU will not have detected a malfunction to the MMT box. The car has not started.

If you are concerned and cannot wait to check that waggling the shift lever stops the shift indicator light flashing and the car can start then then I would ask Toyota to check the shift lever position sensor as I feel that is the problem which is indicated by the flashing light.

Good luck!

[eygo]

i would just go into toyota and tell them what is happening i am sure it isn't a problem they haven't seen before and will know what is wrong with it.

[aygo_girl]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your advise. Think I may have solved the mystery. I found another similar forum with exactly the same problem.

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/137847-mmt-gearbox-yet-again-flashing-n-in-drive-positions/

It looks like its going to be a rather hefty repair, what would be your advise? Repair or Trade in?

Thanks

[Cyker]

Trade it in, get a manual Mk1 diesel Yaris! :D

I must admit I have an intense dislike of the MMT and my biased opinion would be to get rid of it and get a manual unless you have a reason for needing the auto.

Unfortunately, the only Toyotas with non-sucky autoboxes in this class are basically the CVT-based Yaris Mk3 auto and the Yaris Hybrid, both of which are quite pricey compared to the wee Aygo. :(

Hmmm... I wonder how hard it would be to retrofit the CVT into an Aygo...

[Geriatric]

"I wonder how hard it would be to retrofit the CVT into an Aygo"

I think it would be better to wait for the new Aygo next year as it will almost certainly go CTV which seems to be the way forward.

Ran a MMT Corolla for 5 years and a MMT 107 for nearly four years without any problems. Although the 107 needed the ECU reset when the clutch became jerky. If there is no creep in 1,2 or reverse the box is not adjusted properly and becomes a pain.

I moved the actuator against the clutch once and this improved the change for a while.

Basically I like the MMT as it can be very good and fuel consumption excellent.

If the CVT which now has electronic steps like gears is as economical I will change as the potential downside repair cost on MMT is out of proportion.

[MikeSh]

I suspect the repair cost on a CVT may be even higher than an MMT.

I'd give it a few years before accepting the CVT as 'better' because I don't know of any manufacturer since the original DAF that has produced a really good one. (By good I mean economical, good performance, reliable (over the life of the car) and reasonably priced.)

[Cyker]

IMHO the only autoboxes worth a damn are the HSD and 'real' autoboxes (i.e. torque converters).

Semi-autos like the MMT only came to normal cars because they needed something that wouldn't get penalized by the change to CO2 emissions-based road tax in a hurry.

Torque converters are usually several tax bands higher than their manual equivs; In some cars that's the difference between paying £30 and £175! However they are very hard wearing, smooth and generally quite low maintenance. Their biggest downside is the energy wasted in the torque fluid, but newer models like the one in the ISF and GT86 have a locking mechanism which mostly negates this problem, so we may see a resurgence of efficient torque converters! :D

I've never really liked CVTs as they can't handle torque and tend to be very noisy under acceleration. The friction belt in particular is a nasty weakness in CVTs - It's like a constantly wearing clutch and the more load on it, the higher the rate of wear. Often the ECU is programmed to limit torque in order to avoid damaging it, which is why very few CVT-equipped vehicles can tow stuff.
The Toyota one is better as it uses steel belts instead of stupid rubber ones so it should be pretty hard-wearing; Don't know what the life-rating of the belt is, but hopefully it's long as I bet it's expensive to replace!.

That said tho', they are deliciously smooth, rivalling torque converters, and since you'd have to be pretty brave to tow anything in an Aygo anyway, I think a CVT would be a good match. The engine has so little torque that it shouldn't put too much pressure on the friction belt anyway, which will extend its life greatly! They might need to improve the sound-proofing in the Aygo a bit tho'

[eygo]

last year we had a micra k11 with cvt it feels far quicker to get to a speed than the aygo as there aren't any gears to change,but the electronic controlled clutch is expensive,it has a powder clutch which is magnetic and when you put your foot on the accelerator power is applied to the powder in the clutch it then becomes a solid mass and you get drive the more you put your foot down the more power is applied ,we thought ours had delevoped a fault and to repair would cost £900

[MikeSh]

I think the only rubber belted CVTs were the DAF and then Volvo 'originals' (Volvo bought DAF and the transmission which went into the 340). Most have been steel belted for a long time including the K11 Micra (1992-2002).

Power has always been limited with these - to about 1.3/1.4 litre engines.

A while back a disc system was developed by someone to replace the belts. It was supposed to be able to handle much greater powers, certainly 2 litre and beyond. I think it was used in the Nissan Primera some years back, but when I Googled the transmission a year or two back I couldn't find much, so I suspect it has gone the way of all CVTs to date. Will Toyota break the mould?

Modern hydraulics certainly aren't as dire for fuel as older stuff. (about 30 years ago we had a Volvo 240, 2 litre engine, felt like 2 litres per mile at times) but we had a Civic 1.6 a few years ago and that was good for near 40mpg in everyday use.

last year we had a micra k11 with cvt it feels far quicker to get to a speed than the aygo as there aren't any gears to change,but the electronic controlled clutch is expensive,it has a powder clutch which is magnetic and when you put your foot on the accelerator power is applied to the powder in the clutch it then becomes a solid mass and you get drive the more you put your foot down the more power is applied ,we thought ours had delevoped a fault and to repair would cost £900

We had two K11s for several years. Fantastic little cars really - like go-karts when pushed. And the acceleration was relatively good since you get full power all the time, whereas most 'manual' drivers don't push the system anywhere near max and hence lose a lot.

But yes, that clutch. We had one go (powder solidifying) and it did indeed cost us many hundreds to get it reconditioned by an auto-box specialist. However, it still didn't seem quite right and I suspect the problem may have been the control box or magnets not disengaging properly so it was overheating and melting the powder. My research indicated that a lot of people had had the transmission ECU changed (and that's expensive), so I traded it in not long after (it was 6 or 7 years old by then IIRC).

I believe Nissan went back to an hydraulic tx with the K12 (2002-) which had significantly worse performance and fuel economy compared to the manual version. That was my main reason why we traded our last Micra in for the Yaris.

[eygo]

the micra used a steel band for drive instead of the rubber belt ,the rubber belt layout was similar to a scooters transmission

[aygo_girl]

Hi,

So car has gone to toyota, found a couple of 'silly' fault codes, nothing major. They have done a reset and resync which they said 9/10 solves the problem.

I am still yet to be convinced.

Thanks

[BMLC]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could help me solve my Aygo mystery.

I have had this car under a year an absolutely love it. However, over the past 6 weeks it has suffered with intermittent starting problems. It works the majority of the time but has failed to start three times. I have had it to two separate mechanics and an auto electric mechanic and no one could find an issue with the car. I have yet to take it to Toyota as I felt they fobbed me off when i called, saying it was an old car (07 plate?!?!?) and bound to have some problems starting now and then. This will of course be my next step but hoping to go armed with some info or answers.

The problems, as a semi auto obviously the car must be in neutral to start, as I try and start the ignition nothing happens, the dash lights come on and all the electrics work, but the engine doesn't crank/turnover anything. 2/3 times its failed to start I have eventually managed to start it myself by turning car on and off and messing with the gear stick. Very strange though as when I go through the gears the dash flashes neutral and doesn't change to Reverse, Easy, Manual etc. 1/3 times it has failed to start I had to get AA out, nothing seemed to work, exactly the same problem, failing to crank, flashing neutral, however when the AA man tried to push the car it was actually in gear not in neutral like the dash and stick were showing. This could possibly explain why my car failed to start as it will only start in neutral. Eventually after resetting the battery the car came back to life.

Any advice or similar problems would be appreciated.

Thanks

Aygo Girl

Hi

I have had this problem too. Normally occurs when I am in a hurry and try and rush the car into drive as soon as the car has started and try and move off immediately. Called the breakdown garage out the first time and by the time they arrived - about 45 mins - the gearbox had sorted itself out and showed no problems at all. It has happened 3 or 4 times since and I have noted how it always occurs when I have been in a hurry to move of. twice it has been 'cleared' by turning on the ignition, not to start position just ignition on and slowly moving the gearstick into the reverse position. It bleeps to register it is in reverse and can then be placed into neutral and started normally. If this does not work the time proved method of swearing at it, going indoors and enjoying a large mug of tea, and returning to the car to find it is now working perfectly normally will work.

I have taken it to the Toyota dealer who had never heard of such an issue with the MMT gearbox and checked on their diagnostic machine which showed up no faults (as they expected).

Not at all comfortable with the mmt gearbox as it had to be replaced under warranty with about 16000 on the clock. Then about 16 months later the clutch had to be replaced again with only an extra 5000 miles added. The bill would have been £650 but the Toyota dealer offered a reduced price of £500. Toyota GB offered ........NOTHING.

[aygo_girl]

Hi,

Yes, I noticed about the rushing too... as it always happened when there was somewhere I needed to be. I have ended up getting rid of the car, it was sad because I loved it, but it was just so unreliable.

I spoke to two people with the same problem, and no one ever found an answer to the problem. One girl said she had the exact same problem as mine until one day it escalated and started flashing 'N' on the motorway! My worse nightmare!

My car had a new ECU and a new gear stick under warranty to try and fix this same problem. Toyota said they had no idea what the problem was, all they could try was replacing the gear stick and all the sensors again (£500+), or replacing the actuator on the MMT gearbox (£1200), but there was no promise either would solve the problem. So it had to go! :(

[yerodretep]

Experiencing the same intermittent problem that starting falters, tries to but doesn't, even in Neutral with foot brake applied hard, have to waggle gear lever, also switch on off, before it starts and it is a 2014 & only months old (1,600 miles)!

Getting progressively worse that now will ring dealer to repair under 5 year warranty.

(aleady had new rear wiper motor)

[Cyker]

Sorry to hear you had to get rid of it; It's a no-frills but pretty solid car, just let down by that godsawful MMT gearbox :(

What did you replace it with?

Swapped it for a manual one?

I personally detest automatics. IMHO they are for old people and americans :P

[Wiz201]

Sorry to hear you had to get rid of it; It's a no-frills but pretty solid car, just let down by that godsawful MMT gearbox :(

What did you replace it with?

Swapped it for a manual one?

I personally detest automatics. IMHO they are for old people and americans :P

The CVT gearbox is really good, its the cheap MMT they've decided to keep in the Aygos is awful. I've got mine for three years, hopefully it'll last that long, then I'll be ready to swap it for another car on finance and I may look at others like Hyundai or Skoda if they've still kept the MMT then.

[Pytheas]

On 6/12/2013 at 7:59 PM, aygo_girl said:

The problems, as a semi auto obviously the car must be in neutral to start, as I try and start the ignition nothing happens, the dash lights come on and all the electrics work, but the engine doesn't crank/turnover anything. 2/3 times its failed to start I have eventually managed to start it myself by turning car on and off and messing with the gear stick. Very strange though as when I go through the gears the dash flashes neutral and doesn't change to Reverse, Easy, Manual etc.

I am bringing the topic back from the dead, as I also faced a similar issue a couple of days ago: I was showing my 5-year old son how the different Aygo MMT (2016 model) lights switch on and off (engine not running, car parked in N). This included me pressing the foot brake several times in order to show him the way that brake lights work. We left the car, ensuring that all lights were off.

4-5 hours later, I tried to start the car and while the dash lights went on, I could not switch on the engine; the lever was in N and seemed stuck, despite me pushing the foot brake.The foot brake was really "stiff" and could not be pushed too much. I gave it 3-4 tries and gave up, as I didn't want to cause any damage to the car. As I saw the STOP sign flashing (dashboard), I checked the oil level - it was topped up. I used my wife's car in the end, and gave it another try after 4-5 hours but the problem was the same. I read on the forum that the problem might be solved if I left the break overnight, to get back to normal.

Next day, I tried again but nothing happened. In the end, I decided to push the foot brake a bit more and voila - the engine started and worked as a charm! Since then, the car has been working perfectly - I will just make sure that there will be no more fooling around with the foot brake when the engine is off :-) 

And yes, the MMT system seems to be the weakest part of this nice little car. I understand that it was a compromise allowing a cheap car to be available as an automatic (which is not, semi-automatic is more precise), but taking into consideration all these negative reviews and issues mentioned by other owners of MMT versions of the car, then I would expect Toyota to work on that... (I am still not sure how MMT compares to semi-automatic solutions of other manufacturers of small city cars, like VW (Up))

[FROSTYBALLS]

The X-shift transmission used in the second generation Aygo, is a developed version of the previous MMT.

[Devon Aygo]

13 hours ago, Pytheas said:

I am bringing the topic back from the dead, as I also faced a similar issue a couple of days ago: I was showing my 5-year old son how the different Aygo MMT (2016 model) lights switch on and off (engine not running, car parked in N). This included me pressing the foot brake several times in order to show him the way that brake lights work. We left the car, ensuring that all lights were off.

4-5 hours later, I tried to start the car and while the dash lights went on, I could not switch on the engine; the lever was in N and seemed stuck, despite me pushing the foot brake.The foot brake was really "stiff" and could not be pushed too much. I gave it 3-4 tries and gave up, as I didn't want to cause any damage to the car. As I saw the STOP sign flashing (dashboard), I checked the oil level - it was topped up. I used my wife's car in the end, and gave it another try after 4-5 hours but the problem was the same. I read on the forum that the problem might be solved if I left the break overnight, to get back to normal.

Next day, I tried again but nothing happened. In the end, I decided to push the foot brake a bit more and voila - the engine started and worked as a charm! Since then, the car has been working perfectly - I will just make sure that there will be no more fooling around with the foot brake when the engine is off :-) 

And yes, the MMT system seems to be the weakest part of this nice little car. I understand that it was a compromise allowing a cheap car to be available as an automatic (which is not, semi-automatic is more precise), but taking into consideration all these negative reviews and issues mentioned by other owners of MMT versions of the car, then I would expect Toyota to work on that... (I am still not sure how MMT compares to semi-automatic solutions of other manufacturers of small city cars, like VW (Up))

When you pumped the brake pedal without the engine running you used up what vacuum assistance was left in the brake servo this will make the pedal much stiffer to press resulting in the difficulty you faced as you struggled to press the brake pedal far enough for the car to detect you doing so and preventing the car from starting.