Urgent Advice Please ! Help !

[Davrav]

After 13 years I think a little bit of smoke on start up is acceptable. The true test is what is shown on the dipstick...................

[Zincubus]

Well as I said the bill for the MOT , replaced exhaust backbox , replaced engine coolant , full geometry check -adjust plus a service .

Service included - replacing engine oil ( £21) , oil filter / gasket / drain plug and two litres of 5W -30 Toyota Oil .. was £500 in total .

As regards the oil situation . They have given me two litres of 5W - 30 oil .

Do I just keep checking the oil levels weekly and topping up if and when required ??

[three5]

Spot on Chris, and wouldn't we want those cars back now!!

sorry, a bit off topic!

maybe retirement is going off topic? I certainly have more time for it now

I still have a great affection for the mini, it was so different to everything before it. I had two of them and then a 1275cc MG Midget.

A further digression:

The father of my best mate at school was a very senior inspector at Longbridge. Whilst struggling with the exhaust clamp ( that odd one between the manifold and the exhaust itself ) one day I asked him how on earth they managed to do them up quickly on the assembly track. He laughed and explained that the two subframes, complete with suspension, engine, exhaust and all the other bits, were assembled on a jig and the body dropped over the top afterwards!

( back on topic now )

So car designers/manufacturers adding to service costs by reducing initial vehicle cost is not a new concept!

[Zincubus]

Just to end on a slightly worrying note ( for me ) .... I've just checked the safety report issued by Toyota and it says :-

" 1 Engine burning oil , oil level 2 litres down , would require engine overall

2 Oil leak from gearbox , developer added - monitor in a month or so

3 NSF and OSF break back plates starting to corrode and break up - monitor in a month or so .

Although the official MOT Test VOSA advisory document said:-

" Reason for failure - 001 Rear exhaust system not adequately supported( 7.1.1)

Advisory info. - 002. Engine oil low

- 003 Oil leak from gearbox

- 004 Rear diff mount split and starting to deteriate .

The two reports don't match up exactly UNLESS the break back plates are the same as the rear diff mounts ??? They don't sound the same to me .

It's passed it's test and driving like a dream but where does that all leave me guys !!??

What are the crucial things to target from what they are reporting .

Is anything DANGEROUSLY worrying !!??

[three5]

Well as I said the bill for the MOT , replaced exhaust backbox , replaced engine coolant , full geometry check -adjust plus a service .

Service included - replacing engine oil ( £21) , oil filter / gasket / drain plug and two litres of 5W -30 Toyota Oil .. was £500 in total .

As regards the oil situation . They have given me two litres of 5W - 30 oil .

Do I just keep checking the oil levels weekly and topping up if and when required ??

Just to end on a slightly worrying note ( for me ) .... I've just checked the safety report and it says :-

" Engine burning oil , oil level 2 litres down , would require engine overall "

Hi Zincubus,

You don't say anywhere if you have to top up the oil on a regular basis. If you don't, that is a good indication that there isn't a lot wrong. Mine is dealer serviced once a year ( I do about 8k/year ) but the first thing that I do when I get the car home is check the oil. I don't know what Toyota's policy is on the amount of oil used to fill the engine, but mine is usually not much above half way between the marks on the dipstick when it comes out of the dealers. If yours comes out of the dealers with the oil halfway down the dipstick and you don't top it up, you definitely don't have anything to worry about on that score.

Because of the number of short journeys that I do and because it is a diesel engine, mine also gets an inter-service oil and filter change, which I do myself.

I have NEVER added any oil at all. I simply do nothing apart from adding petrol and wiper fluid.

Toyota service it once a year with the MOT and that's it.

Also , we do 5,000 miles a year , all short 6 mile journeys and the occasional 50 mile day out .

Hi Zincubus,

even if Toyota filled the engine to the top mark on the dipstick at service and it was at/near the bottom mark a year later ( - i.e. worst case scenario ) that means that you have used about one litre of oil over 5-6000 miles. I really don't believe that you have anything to worry about with this engine.

Rather rude question, so don't be offended: you do check the oil on a regular basis don't you? I had an Isuzu that never used ANY oil and often felt that checking it was a waste of time - but I did do it every week! The thought of the oil light coming on 4-500 miles from home was a great motivator! Once the oil ( pressure ) warning light comes on, it's often too late to save the engine. Can I start a campaign to bring back the oil pressure gauge?

Not rude at all :)

I have never EVER checked the oil level , it's serviced and then it runs like a dream for 12 months and then it's serviced again ...

From now on I will check it religiously every weekend because I'm going to be paranoid about it . I think it has to be done on a cold engine and flat/level surface and the reading should be between the min and max levels.....

I asked him why they thought it was burning oil and he said that their was some smoke to be seen coming out of the exhaust when e car was started and that's a tell- tale sign that's something's wrong inside the engine and if we don't get it sorted whatever it is will obviously get worse with time .... I talked him into letting me have a couple of litres of engine oil .....

The end result was that it was just the back-box that needed replacing so the total bill paid was £500 .

Not a bad result then! Don't worry about the "2 litres down" comment but try and keep the oil level somewhere on the top half of the dipstick. Davrav is spot on as usual - the amount you use is what matters, not the puff at startup. I'm more inclined to the view that your short journeys could be the cause of the smoke rather than any serious engine wear. Check the level this weekend just as you say ( car cold and on the level ), keep a note of the mileage and see how long it takes to use the 2 litres of oil you have. Best of luck and keep us posted of the result!

[three5]

Just to end on a slightly worrying note ( for me ) .... I've just checked the safety report issued by Toyota and it says :-

" 1 Engine burning oil , oil level 2 litres down , would require engine overall

2 Oil leak from gearbox , developer added - monitor in a month or so

3 NSF and OSF break back plates starting to corrode and break up - monitor in a month or so .

Although the official MOT Test VOSA advisory document said:-

" Reason for failure - 001 Rear exhaust system not adequately supported( 7.1.1)

Advisory info. - 002. Engine oil low

- 003 Oil leak from gearbox

- 004 Rear diff mount split and starting to deteriate .

The two reports don't match up exactly UNLESS the break back plates are the same as the rear diff mounts ??? They don't sound the same to me .

It's passed it's test and driving like a dream but where does that all leave me guys !!??

What are the crucial things to target from what they are reporting .

Is anything DANGEROUSLY worrying !!??

I've never worked on a 4.1 but assume that they are disc brakes all round? One of our resident 4.1 experts is "Bothwell Buyer" - or Bothy as he is known on here. He will know in detail about the Brake Backplates. If they are discs all round, the Backplates are not structural components, they are guards to protect the back of the discs and caliper pistons. Not difficult or too expensive to replace. Easy job for a reliable independent or even DIY. The ( rubber ) Differential Mounting Bushes are something that do go eventually. The symptoms are "clonking" when pulling away ( as the differential takes up the play in the bushes ). If you have no clonking, I doubt that you have a problem.

The following is a little contentious:

I don't let my dealer do the MOT test. I have it done at the local council fleet garage as they don't do repairs and have no interest in making work for anyone. They are very thorough but totally impartial. The motor is always tested the week before it's annual service. The guy I see is a Toyota owner ( D4D Avensis ) and fan of the RAV. I get a lot of excellent advice whenever I go there. In this way there is no argument about what "might" need doing and no surprises.

[flyboyprowler]

I am thinking that 78000 miles is not generally enough to wear the engine in to burning oil, and if it is smoking a bit on start up, then that would possibly point to valve wear or carbon build up due to short trips.

It may be an idea to use a good fuel additive for a while to clean the valves. Also a compression check at some time would show if all is well in the top end.

If just 2 litres was used in a year, and assuming the level was maybe not full after the last service, the the usage is not too bad.

Strange that they wanted to replace the rear exhaust when it sounds like the mounting was the problem, however the bracket may have been worn or broken, and we are in a throw away society these days.

Chris, I had a 1971 1275 midget, much loved, and again much missed, after owning her for 14 years.

[Davrav]

Completely but I also had a 1971 1275 Midget which, incidentally, is currently taxed so must be still running around somewhere............

[Zincubus]

Duplicate

[three5]

...............

Chris, I had a 1971 1275 midget, much loved, and again much missed, after owning her for 14 years.

Mine was a 1968. IMHO the version you had was the best looking one ever made with the split bumpers. Had to go when my daughter arrived. Not sure that I could thread myself in and out these days!

[flyboyprowler]

...............

Chris, I had a 1971 1275 midget, much loved, and again much missed, after owning her for 14 years.

Mine was a 1968. IMHO the version you had was the best looking one ever made with the split bumpers. Had to go when my daughter arrived. Not sure that I could thread myself in and out these days!

Yes, and mine was stage 2 tuned, I sold it when I did a contract abroad, and I am now thinking of buying a MX5, an early one,as that was the car that the midget should have become. Mind you, not as flexible as I used to be!!

[three5]

Yes, and mine was stage 2 tuned, I sold it when I did a contract abroad, and I am now thinking of buying a MX5, an early one,as that was the car that the midget should have become. Mind you, not as flexible as I used to be!!

Ainsley, is that the one with the ****el engine?

[Davrav]

[/quote Not a bad result then! Don't worry about the "2 litres down" comment but try and keep the oil level somewhere on the top half of the dipstick. Davrav is spot on as usual - the amount you use is what matters, not the puff at startup. I'm more inclined to the view that your short journeys could be the cause of the smoke rather than any serious engine wear. Check the level this weekend just as you say ( car cold and on the level ), keep a note of the mileage and see how long it takes to use the 2 litres of oil you have. Best of luck and keep us posted of the result!

What are your thoughts on the two reports I quoted ??

Well, I'd monitor the oil level closely to get a true idea of what is happening with regard to usage. The gearbox leak needs to be checked, as they say, to figure out where it is originating and how severe it is. The brake backplates are, as Chris says, there to protect the inner face of the discs but I doubt they are essential. Rear diff mounts pop up on e-bay if you are getting the clonking.

[Big Kev]

Just to end on a slightly worrying note ( for me ) .... I've just checked the safety report issued by Toyota and it says :-

" 1 Engine burning oil , oil level 2 litres down , would require engine overall

2 Oil leak from gearbox , developer added - monitor in a month or so

3 NSF and OSF break back plates starting to corrode and break up - monitor in a month or so .Although the official MOT Test VOSA advisory document said:-

" Reason for failure - 001 Rear exhaust system not adequately supported( 7.1.1)

Advisory info. - 002. Engine oil low

- 003 Oil leak from gearbox

- 004 Rear diff mount split and starting to deteriate .

The two reports don't match up exactly UNLESS the break back plates are the same as the rear diff mounts ??? They don't sound the same to me .

It's passed it's test and driving like a dream but where does that all leave me guys !!??

What are the crucial things to target from what they are reporting .

Is anything DANGEROUSLY worrying !!??

I've never worked on a 4.1 but assume that they are disc brakes all round? One of our resident 4.1 experts is "Bothwell Buyer" - or Bothy as he is known on here. He will know in detail about the Brake Backplates. If they are discs all round, the Backplates are not structural components, they are guards to protect the back of the discs and caliper pistons. Not difficult or too expensive to replace. Easy job for a reliable independent or even DIY. The ( rubber ) Differential Mounting Bushes are something that do go eventually. The symptoms are "clonking" when pulling away ( as the differential takes up the play in the bushes ). If you have no clonking, I doubt that you have a problem.

The following is a little contentious:

I don't let my dealer do the MOT test. I have it done at the local council fleet garage as they don't do repairs and have no interest in making work for anyone. They are very thorough but totally impartial. The motor is always tested the week before it's annual service. The guy I see is a Toyota owner ( D4D Avensis ) and fan of the RAV. I get a lot of excellent advice whenever I go there. In this way there is no argument about what "might" need doing and no surprises.

There have been a couple of members, one being Arthur The Striding Man, who got a very nasty shock at what Mr.T was quoting for replacement brake back pates/ shields, Chris.

[flyboyprowler]

Yes, and mine was stage 2 tuned, I sold it when I did a contract abroad, and I am now thinking of buying a MX5, an early one,as that was the car that the midget should have become. Mind you, not as flexible as I used to be!!

Ainsley, is that the one with the Wankel engine?

No, but got a feeling that was the RX7, which was a great motor, but very juicy on the gas!

[Zincubus]

[/quote Not a bad result then! Don't worry about the "2 litres down" comment but try and keep the oil level somewhere on the top half of the dipstick. Davrav is spot on as usual - the amount you use is what matters, not the puff at startup. I'm more inclined to the view that your short journeys could be the cause of the smoke rather than any serious engine wear. Check the level this weekend just as you say ( car cold and on the level ), keep a note of the mileage and see how long it takes to use the 2 litres of oil you have. Best of luck and keep us posted of the result!

What are your thoughts on the two reports I quoted ??

Well, I'd monitor the oil level closely to get a true idea of what is happening with regard to usage. The gearbox leak needs to be checked, as they say, to figure out where it is originating and how severe it is. The brake backplates are, as Chris says, there to protect the inner face of the discs but I doubt they are essential. Rear diff mounts pop up on e-bay if you are getting the clonking.

Hi.

Now , funnily enough we are not experiencing any clunking sound at all.

Occasionally we do get what "feels like" an occasional slight clutch judder when setting off and changing from first into second gear but it only happens first thing in the morning from an absolute cold start and seems to be only on cool , damp mornings . it happens just occasionally and I just presumed it was due to dampness in the clutch system or something innocuous .

[Zincubus]

• Just going back to the "leaking

  gearbox" issue .

  Toyota say that they've coated the gearbox with something which will indicate

  how bad and where the leak is coming from . We have to go back in a short while

  to have it checked.

  Just wondering if they will have "topped up" the gearbox oil just to

  be safe .

  What happens if the gearbox has hardly any oil left due to the leak ??

  The Rav normally changes gear as smooth as silk , always has , incidentally.

[Parts-King]

Clutch judder is also a symptom of having oil on the friction plate, it could be the input shaft oil seal leaking

Kingo

[Zincubus]

Clutch judder is also a symptom of having oil on the friction plate, it could be the input shaft oil seal leaking

Kingo

Would that cause intermittent judder though .... only on cool , damp mornings from a cold start ??

I was wondering if the intermittent clutch judder / bang when occasionally going from 1st to 2nd gear was the split / damaged diff mount ???

[Zincubus]

Thanks for patience with me guys ,

Please just check through some of my recent warblings /posts when you get time .

I seem to have more questions then answers and my heads spinning .

We are due to be driving to Scarborough soon and it's over a 200 mile round trip .

I'm not even sure that I dare attempt it given the issues surrounding the engine mount , brake covers issue and gearbox leak not to mention the engine burning oil ...

I appreciate any advice already given but please feel free to contribute . I've posted so many concerns that a few have been overlooked .

Thank you !!

[three5]

Thanks for patience with me guys ,

Please just check through some of my recent warblings /posts when you get time .

I seem to have more questions then answers and my heads spinning .

We are due to be driving to Scarborough soon and it's over a 200 mile round trip .

I'm not even sure that I dare attempt it given the issues surrounding the engine mount , brake covers issue and gearbox leak not to mention the engine burning oil ...

I appreciate any advice already given but please feel free to contribute . I've posted so many concerns that a few have been overlooked .

Thank you !!

Morning Zincubus,

A 200 mile run to Scarborough and back will do the engine nothing but good. Don't attempt my "Italian de-coke" ( harsh acceleration ) until you quantify the problem with the diff mountings. Nothing is going to fall off the car - the brake shields have no load on them other than the aerodynamic load of the car moving ( which isn't much ) and the diff won't come off it's mountings unless you are exceptionally rough with it - it will just get a bit slacker over a long period of time. Let the clutch in slowly and smoothly but get the engine nice and warm and running at higher revs ( at times ) than you would normally use. Not suggesting that you break the speed limit, just use a lower gear! Take the engine oil with you but I bet you won't need it. Do you get an oily patch on the area where you park the RAV overnight? I'm guessing not and that the oil leak is more of minor weep. Did the dealer check the gearbox oil level? You will have more peace of mind if you get it checked and, if necessary, topped up before you set off. Oil leaks are a bit like a cut to your head or other boney place - a very small amount escaping can cover a very large area over time. If the dealer could not see the leak it is either very small or, as Kingo says, a seal that is passing some oil. Your discription of the symptoms ( clutch judder on start up which disappears quickly? ) suggest to me that there is unlikely to be much amiss.

If I was in your position, I wouldn't worry - just go!

According to a good friend of mine who lives in Scarborough, the temperature there this morning is pushing 25^oC, so what are you waiting for? Have a great trip and enjoy every minute. You don't say where you are travelling from, but I'm about 100 miles from Scarborough as well.

[Zincubus]

Thanks for patience with me guys ,

Please just check through some of my recent warblings /posts when you get time .

I seem to have more questions then answers and my heads spinning .

We are due to be driving to Scarborough soon and it's over a 200 mile round trip .

I'm not even sure that I dare attempt it given the issues surrounding the engine mount , brake covers issue and gearbox leak not to mention the engine burning oil ...

I appreciate any advice already given but please feel free to contribute . I've posted so many concerns that a few have been overlooked .

Thank you !!

Morning Zincubus,

A 200 mile run to Scarborough and back will do the engine nothing but good. Don't attempt my "Italian de-coke" ( harsh acceleration ) until you quantify the problem with the diff mountings. Nothing is going to fall off the car - the brake shields have no load on them other than the aerodynamic load of the car moving ( which isn't much ) and the diff won't come off it's mountings unless you are exceptionally rough with it - it will just get a bit slacker over a long period of time. Let the clutch in slowly and smoothly but get the engine nice and warm and running at higher revs ( at times ) than you would normally use. Not suggesting that you break the speed limit, just use a lower gear! Take the engine oil with you but I bet you won't need it. Do you get an oily patch on the area where you park the RAV overnight? I'm guessing not and that the oil leak is more of minor weep. Did the dealer check the gearbox oil level? You will have more peace of mind if you get it checked and, if necessary, topped up before you set off. Oil leaks are a bit like a cut to your head or other boney place - a very small amount escaping can cover a very large area over time. If the dealer could not see the leak it is either very small or, as Kingo says, a seal that is passing some oil. Your discription of the symptoms ( clutch judder on start up which disappears quickly? ) suggest to me that there is unlikely to be much amiss.

If I was in your position, I wouldn't worry - just go!

According to a good friend of mine who lives in Scarborough, the temperature there this morning is pushing 25^oC, so what are you waiting for? Have a great trip and enjoy every minute. You don't say where you are travelling from, but I'm about 100 miles from Scarborough as well.

Hi and thanks for the reassurance .

I've just spoken with Toyota and asked them how much oil they used to top-up the leaking gearbox but he said they didn't add any and

you cant just top it up anyways . He said they had sprayed some developer on the gearbox and if I take it back to them in a month they will be able to tell where the oil is leaking from and go from there .

He promised to to ring on me on Monday with two job prices , one for replacing the split / corroded diff mount and another for replacing the two brake back-plates . I will get a third party to have a look at the diff mount and brake back plates and next Wednesday and go from there . As to the engine burning oil , I guess I'll have to just keep monitoring the oil levels and keeping a record of how much is added and the mileage and see how it goes .

Thanks again !

[bothwell_buyer]

I just got a email maessage from Mansellz - sorry but I haven't been on the forum very much - been hectic at our charitys business - Yooz as we have 2 managers down ---well one left the other has girlfriend problems! No advice for the latter fraid.

Anyway having just had a quick look at the last 2 pages... heres my experience

The brake back plates are simply a bit of thin metal that is meant to stop stones etc from getting to the front brake disc. My number 1 RAV (the faster one) had funny scraping noises a few years ago and when I found what it was, I just removed the rusty old backplates. They provide no help to the brake operation in my view - even after I replaced the front brakes with expensive racing brakes. My number 2 RAV still sports the front brake back plates on both sides but then its only done 105,000 miles. Don't bother with the backplates - end of!

The early RAVs only had drum brakes which I have retained on both my RAVs despite using one for racing. And the rear drum brakes don't have back plates. If you have rear discs, same advice as above re the fronts.

The diff mount - well you have 2 options - one is to replace the diff mount (depends how badly split it is, but they are pretty rubbish even when new. I got my rear diff bushes filled with silicon - the type that dries hard but still flexible and it copes with the racing RAV power no bother. A soft rear diff mount will give you all sorts of clunks on both acc elaration and slowing down / changing gear. Try the silicon first before wou support Kingos low fat sandwich diet.

The silicon cartridge you'll get for less than a tenner.

On the 3SFE engine, I found it did use a little oil and as it got older, it used more oil. As long as you check and top up the oil with a reasonable grade oil rather than cheapo stuff, you'll be fine. The engine block has been known to develop crankshaft seal oil leaks but again if not too bad then don't muck about.

On the gearbox, again it depends on where the oil leak is from. get the rear diff mount done first and then see how the car behaves. If you carry weight in the back, then think about getting spring assisters for the rear coil springs - ala caravan type. Also check that the rear springs aren't broken. An MOT should flag that up but not always. They break down near the seat.

By the way, I stopped going near Toyota Dealers for servicing or anything else aside of parts many years ago. Take your car to a small JAP car specialist or as said an independent who doesn't get to doi repairs.

Do get someone to check the gearbox oil - I'm too fat to do anything like that now but I leave that to my friends at the Garage.

[bothwell_buyer]

I should have added that my RAV has passed the MOT several times since the brake backplates were removed.

I also have an oil leak from number 2 RAVs 3SGTE turbo engine. We think its from a crankshaft seal but the lump still takes me to 3 figure speeds very very quickly. (On the Scottish Autobahn of course) It does keep my red chips on the driveway oiled, but as long as I keep an eye on the oil level until it goes in for fixing, then theres no harm done. I think I'm checking the oil level every 500 miles. I'll rake over the chuckies to hide the oil mark.

[three5]

I should have added that my RAV has passed the MOT several times since the brake backplates were removed.

I also have an oil leak from number 2 RAVs 3SGTE turbo engine. We think its from a crankshaft seal but the lump still takes me to 3 figure speeds very very quickly. (On the Scottish Autobahn of course) It does keep my red chips on the driveway oiled, but as long as I keep an eye on the oil level until it goes in for fixing, then theres no harm done. I think I'm checking the oil level every 500 miles. I'll rake over the chuckies to hide the oil mark.

Hi Ian - I was getting to the stage where I was going to PM you and ask you to look at this thread! I seem to remember you talking about the diff and Backplates problem some time ago, but despite the search facility, I couldn't find it. Trust life is treating you a little more gently now?