Let’S Play Doctors And Nurses

[MichaelmcJ]

Doctors, specialists and respected surgeons of the Rav4 Club.
Please use your wise and extensive expertise to provide a consultation, diagnosis
and prognosis on my 2007 Rav4 D4D, which is giving starting trouble…

The patient background

Bought privately in Jan 2013, 73,000 miles on the clock

Car is averaging 37 to the gallon and running well

No DPF on this car I believe

Has burnt about 1 litre of oil since Jan

Previous owner had it for three months only

Told me he got his vendor to replace glow plugs as he wasn’t
happy with the way it started

Was mostly fine all through winter, but there was occasional
starting hiccup

In March I added BG244 for a clean-up and started using BP
Ultimate, which is when starting trouble seemed to progress

Battery is 700 CCA and seems to crank a bit slow, though
seems fully charged

Budget is tight so I want to hang on until 80,000 mile
service before I ask Mr T to step in.

The symptoms

Poor cold starting, occasionally also when warm

Starts sometimes on the first crank, but on average mostly
on the second, and sometimes three, four five

This morning (21 degrees outside) it ran to nine cranks and
I feared the Battery would go

White smoke when it starts – the more cranks the more white smoke,
which I know is un-burnt fuel

I notice black smoke on hard acceleration, otherwise car is running
well

Potential treatment

EGR clean?

Compression test?

Another clean-out with BG244 (can you use this twice in
10,000 miles?)

Oil additive?

Fuel and air filters?

Higher CCA on Battery?

Patient fears

Head gasket on way out

Sticky piston rings

Bad injectors

Fear of costly private surgery

Any thoughts and advice on a lasting cure that avoids major
and expensive surgery would be much appreciated. Nurses can of contribute too of course!

[silly sausage]

Before the consultation begins are you Private or NHS ?

[Tech01]

Black smoke on hard acceleration is normal.

Black smoke on start-up is unburnt fuel, and also normal.

Blue smoke is burning oil.

White smoke is (glycol) antifreeze getting into the combustion chambers - usually a leaking head gasket, or more rarely a cracked head. The white smoke usually smells slightly sweet. Water/coolant in the combustion chambers will play havoc with starting.

Chris

[CharlieFarlie]

If Dr Tech01,is correct then the prognosis is very poor.. Could be terminal even.. So is the patient Private or NHS ?? Cos if its NHS the cost could be huge....

[Big Kev]

If Dr Tech01,is correct then the prognosis is very poor.. Could be terminal even.. So is the patient Private or NHS ?? Cos if its NHS the cost could be huge....

Can only hope it's NHS......Not His Shout, coz if it's Private (Put Right In Very Aloof Toyota Eejits....), verily it will cost a tidy sum.....

[igormus]

The symptoms

Poor cold starting, occasionally also when warm

Starts sometimes on the first crank, but on average mostly
on the second, and sometimes three, four five

this morning (21 degrees outside) it ran to nine cranks and
I feared the Battery would go

1. Please have fuel filter changed first + bleed the system;

2. If engine is cranked slowly or so -- change the battery;

3. Check resistance of both SCV mounted on the fuel injection pump (pinned section);

White smoke when it starts – the more cranks the more white smoke,
which I know is un-burnt fuel

1. Fuel filter clogging;

2. SCV issue

3. Late injection timing;

4. Issue with rail pressure sensor or check its el contact;

I notice black smoke on hard acceleration, otherwise car is running well

1. Poor injection quality + overfueling in each cylinder;

2. Incorrecr performance of both SCV;

3. MAF sensor --- to be inspected

check with yr toy and revert

:)

[Cyker]

MY first thought was that your Battery needs replacing or your starter motor is dying...

[Tech01]

If cranking is slow, then agreed: swap Battery, and check Battery terminals/clamps. Also check there's a good earth connection (almost zero resistance) from Battery -ve to engine/starter-motor frame. If all connections and battery are good, then it looks like a poor starter motor. [if replacing, make sure you get the higher powered one - there were two listed for some earlier D4Ds.]

Really white smoke (and plenty of it) is the ethylene glycol in antifreeze burning. It's how stage 'smoke' can be produced! The smell of this very white smoke is slightly sweet. If smoke is simply pale blue, it could easily be oil - which means valve stem seals, piston rings, or possibly a head gasket, or turbo lubrication getting into the air intake - or a fuelling issue.

Check out the battery etc first - it's the easy bit.

Chris

[igormus]

and do not forget to inspect your turbo/ the rotor mut rotate easy + variable vanes to be rotated smoothly. besides -- open an EGR lid cover just to be sure no carbon deposits are in cos they create contra pressure on exhaust.

good luck

[flyboyprowler]

If Dr Tech01,is correct then the prognosis is very poor.. Could be terminal even.. So is the patient Private or NHS ?? Cos if its NHS the cost could be huge....

Ah, if NHS, choose surgeon, and book,-----great way to jump the queues!! Has Mr T, or other medic had a look in yet?

[kencat]

My old rav 2.2 d 130 bhp was slow firing found 2 glow plugs gone changed them diden make any Difference tho ! Had a ticking sound at around 20000 miles 1 injector was Faulty , Toyota changed all 4 under Warranty and it started fine after that ! And ticking went ! ( Toyota can test the injectors 4 u with there ecu test thing ) cost of injectors tho very expensive hope it's not them !

[anchorman]

I recognise that this car has noting wrong with it but is acting up to a couple of weeks on the sick.

Fuel filter first, air if it is in anyway doubtful and leave the ignition switched on for an additional 3 or 4 seconds after the light has gone off. You could also check the glow plug resistance. They could play up on earlier models and they will lead to unburned fuel which is white and stinks of.......

...diesel!

[MichaelmcJ]

Thanks one and all for your useful replies - though maybe I should asked the jokers, jesters and comedians for their opinions!

She's not losing coolant, and the smoke is in the grey side of white, so hope it's not a head gasket.

I'm very much a NHS boy, so it looks like I'll have to join the waiting lists.

Would the EGR be at play here?

Gonna work through your suggestions starting with the cheapest - fuel and air filter - then Battery etc before she goes to Mr T, the greatest consultant of them all???

Will let you know how I get on.

Not sure if any the nurses were operating here...

[CharlieFarlie]

Asking us to play Doctors and nurses invited the jokers, jesters and comedians to reply ?

Mate if you have any doubts go straight to your Dealer and get investigations started sooner rather than later !!

Your post above indicates your car is a 2007 so not so long left to rule out the lesser evils.. Your statement under the avatar spot indicates your car is a 2006 ? if so get moving ASAP.... Good luck with it !

[MichaelmcJ]

Whoops - she's 2006, that's a typo... so I'm out of the seven year period, unfortunately - your guide to that whole issue is fantastic by the way Charlie.

My hunch is this is not a head problem as there's no other symptoms once she starts.

Just trying to be methodical and make sure the potential cheaper problems are dealt with first before I need to diagnose it's a head problem.

[kencat]

Toyota did a modified injector from around 2009 for sum Reason?

[MichaelmcJ]

Right people let’s have another consultancy please - NHS or private.

My 2006 Rav4 XT4 D4D is driving me mad. As reported back in July, she runs very well when she gets going, but won’t start on the first crank and sometimes takes up to six or seven spins.

Let the son down Tuesday morning (-4); the Battery went flat after maybe 30 cranks. But she started on Wednesday with a friend’s heavy duty booster pack on the third shot. He also quickly stuck a scanner on to check the coolant temperature sensor and all is well with that.

I suspected the coolant temperature sensor because following my last consultancy with the forum I have: replaced the Battery (830 cranking power); glow plugs; cleaned MAF sensor. The fuel filter was replaced at recent Toyota 80,000 mile service. I asked them to look at the starting issue – they said the starter ‘might’ be getting lazy – wanted £600 to replace it. No thanks –part can be got for £185.

Even with the big Battery I have the impression she is a bit slow in turning over – the booster pack turned her over faster.

I’ve taken a long slow approach this as I know how fortunes can change hands without a solution, but this has been going on for a nearly a year now and I’m at the proverbial wits end.

Bought one of the fault scanners – no fault codes stored.

I’m ruling out the SCV valves as she runs sweet once she starts.

Before I replace the starter, what do we think?

[firemac]

Right people let’s have another consultancy please - NHS or private.

My 2006 Rav4 XT4 D4D is driving me mad. As reported back in July, she runs very well when she gets going, but won’t start on the first crank and sometimes takes up to six or seven spins.

Let the son down Tuesday morning (-4); the battery went flat after maybe 30 cranks. But she started on Wednesday with a friend’s heavy duty booster pack on the third shot. He also quickly stuck a scanner on to check the coolant temperature sensor and all is well with that.

I suspected the coolant temperature sensor because following my last consultancy with the forum I have: replaced the battery (830 cranking power); glow plugs; cleaned MAF sensor. The fuel filter was replaced at recent Toyota 80,000 mile service. I asked them to look at the starting issue – they said the starter ‘might’ be getting lazy – wanted £600 to replace it. No thanks –part can be got for £185.

Even with the big battery I have the impression she is a bit slow in turning over – the booster pack turned her over faster.

I’ve taken a long slow approach this as I know how fortunes can change hands without a solution, but this has been going on for a nearly a year now and I’m at the proverbial wits end.

Bought one of the fault scanners – no fault codes stored.

I’m ruling out the SCV valves as she runs sweet once she starts.

Before I replace the starter, what do we think?

Hi Michael,

Bearing in mind that it runs very well once started but that starting is an issue, it would seem that the problem has to do with the electrics in the starter circuit generally.

Apologies if this has all been done already but have you checked out all the elec conns to the Battery & the starter? I've had cases where poor starting was sorted by replacing the earth strap between engine/box & chassis.

If all the conns, incl'g the earths - wires & terminations - check out and you've already replaced the Battery, then what about the starter itself? You seem to indicate that you've had it checked by MrT but not replaced? Is it worth taking it off the car and spinning it up on the work bench to make sure that it isn't suffering from a tight/seized bearing? Ideally, if you can get one on appro (or borrow one?) that would be ideal but I appreciate that could be difficult unless you are on good terms with your local motor factor. Is it possible that there is resistance in the circuit due to a faulty ign switch, i.e. only in the "start" segment?

The fact that the engine performs "very well" except for poor starting must surely point to the starter, Battery or conns.

[crofter]

I had slow cranking a while back and traced it was due to burnt/worn heavy duty contacts in the starter solonoid itself.If this is the case these can be replaced or cleaned.

Replacements were available on eBay for about £15ish

Hope you get to the bottom of this mate

Del

[Big Kev]

I had slow cranking a while back and traced it was due to burnt/worn heavy duty contacts in the starter solonoid itself.If this is the case these can be replaced or cleaned.Replacements were available on Ebay for about £15ishHope you get to the bottom of this mateDel

Timely reminder, Del min, bearing in mind seasonal differentials......might NOT be temperaturaturial......could be corrosion/wear of contacts. Or as Bothy would say........"verdaygree......?"

[bonwitco]

Hi.
I too have been having the same problem with starting for app 8 months now. Drive it for 5 minutes and it will restart without a problem. There is also a "diesel knocking" sound until you put the engine under load, at which point it quietens down. Lift your foot of the pedal and it immediately comes back So far I've renewed the fuel filter, glow plugs (three of them open circuit), cleaned EGR valve (even cleaned it then blanked it) for a few weeks with no improvement. Battery is OK (12.86v) will check again tomorrow morning before starting. Now very nervously looking at the injectors as the cause. Waiting for the Archoil AR6400-D Pro Diesel Cleaner to arrive to see if it makes a difference. Did you ever get to the cause of the problem and find a solution?

[MichaelmcJ]

Hi

Long story - the engine evenually siezed last summer and I had to replace with a second hand one from a scrap dealer. It seems to have happened due to a broken return fuel pipe watering down the engine oil. When dismantled, the dual mass flywheel was also found to be shot, and this may have been part of the original trouble.

The original starter, fuel pump, injectors and all ancillary parts fitted belonged to the old engine, though, and the 'new second hand engine' (60,000 miles on it) ran fine until the winter, then my starting troubles returned as the temerature dropped.

I was afraid it was the injectors, but got them checked and they were within tolerances. An independent guy put a new starter in for me just last weekend and wow, she now starts like a rocket first time. I should say I also have an over specced Battery in - 850 cranking amps I think.

No-one ever thought it was the starter and the Toyota prices for replacing were a big put off. In the end I think that's it might have been at the beginning. I think my siezed engine was a seperate issue.

My advice? Get the injectors tested - that's the big bucks problem. If they are OK over spec the Battery and take the starter out of the equation. After that you can't get hurt in the pocket too much more. I should say my engine does not have the DPF - thank ****. Good luck!

[bonwitco]

That sounds like a really bad luck story to me!!! Also sounds very unusual for a RAV. Could you recommend anyone to test the injectors around Bangor? Or anywhere in the north for that matter. I can find people but they need the injectors removed. I need someone who can remove, test and then refit.

your help would be greatly appreciated, especially now hearing your engine seized!!!

I personally think my problem sounds like injectors so would be looking to get them cleaned/ reconditioned.

Thanks again for the reply. The Battery voltage is steady at 12.86volts so looks OK to me. It's a Varta G7 95Ah 830 so seems tough enough. Also read (and it's working so far) let the ignition sit on after the glow plug lamp has gone out to give extended heating before cranking. No DPF in mine either. Thank **** too!!!

[bonwitco]

Forgot to add. I had my DMF renewed a month ago. app 60deg play in it. at 91,000 miles. . . Not cheap either!

[MichaelmcJ]

Yeah, a £3,000 bad luck story.

That Battery should start a tractor!

Question is: is the starter drawing all 12.86 volts? There seems to be a hint of lazy starter-itis about these models.

PM me and I'll give you the phone no. of the guy who sorted me out.