Prius Advice Appreciated

[UK2004]

Recently moved further into London and having TT and Audi A6 not really ideal sitting in traffic. Looking at diesels many now having DPF no use for us so suddenly thought of Prius. Know nothing about them though, what needs to be looked out for when buying used, seeing some 2005,2006 models at good prices used, are there specific things to check for apart from stamped service history? Anyone got experience driving them in London mpg wise? TT managed 17mpg and dropped when getting into central London, can the Prius manage 38mpg around that level?

[Opifex]

17mpg?? - even my old Porsche used to manage 19mpg.

With a Prius I doubt you could get anywhere near as low as 38mpg even if you tried very hard on a really, really bad day. I would guess around 50mpg is much nearer the mark.

I'm not an expert on that age of Prius so all I can recommend is go for one with the rear camera which makes reversing so much easier and safer.

Good luck in your search.

[barrycoll]

as someone living in central London, and driving Golf diesel estates for the last 11 years, AND deciding that a new Mk 7 would be just a ticket, I had a road to Damascus experience...

.....the thought came to me of "why not a Prius"???

why suffer with Diesel Particulate Filter problems, dual mass flywheel problems, overheated turbo problems, timing chain problems, and just buy a properly engineered car in the first place......a Prius + a 5 year warranty

my T Spirit has exceeded all expectations, with a 4 week trip to Spain at 61.2 mpg, and around town, even more than that....getting the best from the car is a very pleasant challenge, a sort of eco version of the perfect double de-clutch, a nd very rewarding

couldn't recommend the car more, despite a history of big horsepower/torque motors

cheers barrycoll

[Cyker]

While they are still beaten by diesels for distance driving, Prius and other hybrids all thrive on city start/stop driving and can get the same kind of mpg in the city that a good diesel gets doing distance. I'd expect mpg in the 60's for the Mk3 and Yaris HSD, bit lower for the Auris HSD and Prius Mk2...

[johalareewi]

While they are still beaten by diesels for distance driving,

Not necessarily. All Toyota hybrids are automatic and usually beat their automatic diesel equivalents for distance driving.

Prius and other hybrids all thrive on city start/stop driving and can get the same kind of mpg in the city that a good diesel gets doing distance. I'd expect mpg in the 60's for the Mk3 and Yaris HSD, bit lower for the Auris HSD and Prius Mk2...

You can check real life mpgs for Toyota hybrids over on fuelly.com

If buying for use in the London Congestion Zone, some Toyota hybrids are exempt (well £10 a year).

As well as the more well known hybrids like the Prius gen2 and Prius gen3, there are also the Prius plugin (electric + petrol car), Prius+ (7 seater), Auris Hybrid gen1, Auris Hybrid gen2, Yaris Hybrid.

There are also Lexus hybrids which use the same HSD as the Prius.

[barrycoll]

Clarkson managed to get 17mpg from a Prius Opifex!

...........flat out on a circuit

not sure that the Prius was/is as eco as my last auto diesel Golf on a motorway, but it rapidly catches up (and passes) the Golf when the inevitable traffic problems occur...

....nothing nicer than a long traffic jam and 8 rings on the HV Battery....just have to remember to put it into N after each mini-movement

barrycoll

[theoilburner]

While they are still beaten by diesels for distance driving,

Not necessarily. All Toyota hybrids are automatic and usually beat their automatic diesel equivalents for distance driving.

Agreed. We took a 150 mile round trip last week in our Gen III Prius. Half of it motorway at 70 mph or so, the other half A-roads over steep hills where I really needed Power mode. I was seriously pleased with an average mpg of about 65 when we arrived home.

There's a few diesel manuals (latest Golf Bluemotion certainly) that can match that or beat it in the real world, but not with an auto box. For us an auto is essential, so the Prius is a no brainer.

Plus, it's a relief to be freed of the worry of DPFs, DMFs, high pressure fuel injection, turbos, DSG style gearboxes, etc etc. Our last car was a Citroen C4 GP with a 1.6 HDI engine and automated manual gearbox - that car was a reliability nightmare. It never got anywhere near its official economy figures either.

By comparison, our other car is a 2009 Mondeo 2.0 diesel with a 6 speed torque converter gear box. That's averaging just 37 mpg over the last 17k miles. Yes,that's a diesel, honest! :D

[UK2004]

Thanks for the replies, definitely convinced me, I'm also in the auto must have category due to multiple knee operations on my left one! Are the gearboxes reliable how many miles generally before they need replacing and can recon boxes be found etc?

[Parts-King]

You don't even need to think about recon auto boxes......they are unburstable ;)

Kingo

[timberwolf]

I get 45 mpg from my 2008 Prius in Winter and 55-60 mpg in the Summer for doing short 7 mile trips in free flowing traffic (I don't drive in London or any city if I can help it), my overall annual average has been about 53 mpg.

Technically, it has no gearbox, the closest equivalent on the mechanical side is what has sometimes been referred to as the Power Split Device (which I've always thought was an odd name because I think of it as combining power), officially it might be called a Transaxle. The Toyota HSD is really quite different from a conventional car, questions like how much to replace the gearbox are usually only asked by trolls.

We have a small number of members relatively speaking for a car that probably accounts for 1-2% of the market, and I can't recall any members posting about transaxle failures yet! Possibly, a wider search would help?

For some light bed time reading, it wouldn't hurt to read something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive.

[Opifex]

Here's a video showing how the transaxle works and demonstrating how simple the arrangement is, hence the reliability.

And if you want to see a Prius fly, literally, look at the last few minutes of this

[cootuk]

Haven't the TFL rules changed recently regarding hybrid exemption, so most Prii would now get charged?

UPDATE 25/04/2013 - New London Congestion Charge rules have brought the qualifying CO₂ emissions figure down from 100g to 75g/km. Owners can still register a new or existing vehicle that qualifies under the previous 100g/km limit up to 28 June. Their exemption will continue for a three-year transition period, ending on 24 June 2016. The new rules for the Ultra Low Emissions Discount come in to force on 1 July 2013.

For the GenII, there was a facelift at (55) plate which improved traction control in situations like snow and a few minor cosmetic details.

We have a 55 plate GenII and our worst mpg, city driving, short distanced from cold, is over 40mpg.

Soon perks up to over 50mpg when we get onto A-roads/motorway.

The only major problem with city driving is brake corrosion as the regen system operates down to a few mph (8 mph?) so the discs rarely get scrubbed off. A lot of users get some speed up, knock it into neutral to deactivate regen braking, then brake to clean the discs...every so often.

There have also been a few recalls which should have been done if dealer serviced - a recent one for steering shaft might be outstanding as the recall letters have only recently gone out. A previous one for hybrid cooling pump should have been done, though that fault only affected hot climates). The other recall was to make sure you weren't stacking loads of mats over the accelerator and to check they are tagged down so they can't slip.

The drive system is a pleasure..no kickdown, just a smooth constant delivery of power, with a bit of creep artificially added in to make it feel like a proper auto. Engines sound a bit raucous when on full throttle, but no problem.

[johalareewi]

Are the gearboxes reliable how many miles generally before they need replacing and can recon boxes be found etc?

The Prius doesn't really have a gearbox. Is has a planetary gear system with fixed ratios.

So no gear changing and hardly anything to wear out.

There is also no clutch, starter motor, alternator, or fan belt to go wrong either.

[johalareewi]

Haven't the TFL rules changed recently regarding hybrid exemption, so most Prii would now get charged?

UPDATE 25/04/2013 - New London Congestion Charge rules have brought the qualifying CO₂ emissions figure down from 100g to 75g/km. Owners can still register a new or existing vehicle that qualifies under the previous 100g/km limit up to 28 June. Their exemption will continue for a three-year transition period, ending on 24 June 2016. The new rules for the Ultra Low Emissions Discount come in to force on 1 July 2013.

True.

The gen2 was no longer exempt at the last change anyway :(

I forgot it came in on 1st July.

I am guessing an exemption registered before 28 June is not transferable to a new owner either?

[UK2004]

What are the main things I should look out for when I'm looking at a Prius? I've not driven one before so it's a totally new experience!

Forgot, is there anything that can go wrong with the transaxle software for example? Like with my TT DSG it had a mechatronic issue sometimes go wrong that can be costly, luckily didn't happen on mine but wondered if similar things can go wrong with Prius?

[timberwolf]

Erm, just a brain dump - I'm not going to look anything up to check whether I've remembered it correctly.

Steering and accelerator pedal are light compared to some other cars. I think the car rides well, but some may feel it is too light.

There are some things to be aware of concerning the feel of the brakes, if you apply them very lightly and then hit a bump in the road - it momentarily releases the brakes when switching from regenerative to friction.

The dash board can rattle or creak (some do/some don't) and hitting a pot-hole can be an alarming experience.

Due to the eCVT the engine revs do not necessarily increase when pulling away - if you are always used to the engine revving when you press the accelerator it can be unexpected and it may possibly have also led some to think that the car is slower than it is.

Transition from electric to petrol engine should not be felt. The only time you should feel the petrol engine spin over is from cold or typically at the first stop.

You may hear a faint electric buzz sound from the inverter but not usually from inside the cabin.

Start the car you should hear the clunk of the relays at the back.

No software updates that I am aware of. There was a hardware/software change to the traction control on the 2006- model, if you read about complaints of the traction control on the Prius esp in the snow it was worse on the 2004-2005 model.

The transaxle can fail - it is just relatively rare and not many of us have reached high enough mileage.

The HV Battery can fail - again relatively rare.

The Inverter can fail - again not common.

One of the ECUs can fail - not common.

Hybrid coolant pump has been the subject of two recalls.

The steering column is the subject of at least one recall. (Over various models Toyota seems to have problem with the design of their steering columns)

Common faults are the usual friction brake components, CV joints and wheel bearings.

Engine water pump (different from the Hybrid coolant pump).

The Multi-function displays can sometimes fail, it is probably a+£2k replacement - if the display blanks during your test drive - walk away. Also some owners have found to their cost that sticking a sat-nav via a suction cup to the display can damaged the input. Why would they dream of doing it, i don't know?

Check for signs of water in the spare tyre/wheel well and also around the 12V Battery.

Probably like many modern cars the paint work is soft and pretty rubbish and even if the bonnet and hatch are aluminium they can still corrode.

Alloy wheel corrosion.

Faulty volume knob?

[wass]

As a very good guide, the local cab drivers still seem to be going for very tidy looking gen2 prii. They are considered by many as being well over-engineered if not as economical as the later developments. Mine has done 65000 very uneventful miles and I am expecting it to continue for about the same again before I have to pay any attention to anything remotely major. The engine and transaxle never get worked hard and shouldn't present any issues, the HV Battery is good for astronomical mileages. The weak spot for most prii or indeed auris hybrid is the puny 12v Battery which is used to start up the on board computer. Because the 12 volt Battery does not turn over the engine ( this is done by the HV battery) the 12v battery very quietly loses its will to live, finally announcing to the world that it has had enough by refusing to start up the computer, which, in turn wont power up the engine via the HV battery.

[Opifex]

Received opinion seems to suggest that 12v Battery life is about 4 years which is comparable with a conventional car.

The Prius doesn't really have a gearbox. Is has a planetary gear system with fixed ratios.
So no gear changing and hardly anything to wear out.
There is also no clutch, starter motor, alternator, or fan belt to go wrong either.

With so little in these cars it makes you wonder why they're so expensive.

[theoilburner]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Prius T3 can be had for £21k. The VW Golf SE 1.6 TDI with Bluemotion tech and the DSG gearbox with 5 doors will cost you about £22k.

Golf will hold it's value better, but only has 3 year warranty compared to Toyotas 5 years. Golf will probably cost more to maintain over the cars lifetime, and is in band B for VED.

Plus the Golf is very noisy, except when you come to a stop and the baby gets woken up, according to the advert... ;)

[kithmo]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Prius T3 can be had for £21k. The VW Golf SE 1.6 TDI with Bluemotion tech and the DSG gearbox with 5 doors will cost you about £22k.

Golf will hold it's value better, but only has 3 year warranty compared to Toyotas 5 years. Golf will probably cost more to maintain over the cars lifetime, and is in band B for VED.

Plus the Golf is very noisy, except when you come to a stop and the baby gets woken up, according to the advert... ;)

My 2010 Gen 3 T-spirit with weasel 3yr warranty held its value well, I paid £22K new in May 2010 and traded it for a 6 month old Prius+ in May this year, when the Gen 3 was exactly 3 years old and got £11.5K for it. I make that a 48% depreciation in 3 years, still worth 52% of its original price.

[barrycoll]

trading a car for a replacement is easy, Keith, but very expensive...

a good wash and polish, some good pics, and it sells easily on Autotrader....

against a 1 year old T Spirit overpriced at £19k, my Golf 5 DSG TDI was valued at £7k by a Toyota dealer....on Autotrader the phone never stopped ringing at £9.5k....

[theoilburner]

I had a similar experience when I tried to trade in my old Citroen C5 3.0 V6 against an Avensis at a Toyota dealer. The salesman was honest and said he'd been offered anything from ZERO to £1500 with his contacts. I got onto the phone with a specialist and sold it for £3750 the very same day.

Still happy with my Toyota dealer, but I avoid trading cars in if I can.

[Parts-King]

You are never going to get the best price for a car by part exchanging a non Toyota at a Toyota dealer. The same goes for any other franchise. Most dealers would get a non Toyota underwritten by a trader who is not going to pay anything like retail money for it. Let's not forget the first price you get is an opening negotiating price. People get too hung up on the P/Ex price, what matters is the cost to change, and when the dealer knows you are really interested, prices can sway a lot. The dealer has to have the P/Ex car on his books at the right price, there is no point having a car on the books owing retail money, because it will take a hit in depreciation every month it sits on the forecourt, and depending on make/model that could be hundreds of pounds a month. Dealers have strict stocking policies, usually 60 or 90 days. Dealers don't own used cars, banks do!! Putting 1500 profit on a used car today "looks" quite a healthy margin today, but have that car on stock for 60 days and pay depreciation, refurb costs, stocking interest, commission, VAT and that bad word.........profit, there is very little left. It should be no surprise then that the dealer wants your car at the lowest price possible

Kingo

[theoilburner]

Completely agree Kingo. We, the punter, only see the disparity between the trade-in and the price a car gets retailed at, but of course it's not that simple. Oh, and you forgot the cost of a warranty too!

The trouble is these days, with the requirement to keep a car insured and taxed (if it's not on SORN), it makes it quite tricky to sell a car privately unless you're able to do without a car for a week or two between selling and buying, or your insurance company is happy to cover two cars for a couple of weeks and you're confident of selling the old car within that time frame. Not easy. Try selling a car on SORN and how do you manage if the buyer wants a test drive or you don't have a private driveway to keep it on?

Of course, none of that hassle is the fault of the dealers. Actually, I feel sorry for the dealer sometimes - they must get some right awful cars with very expensive faults traded in to them and yet are expected to sell cars without any faults at all. :) Somebody has to pay for fixing these issues...

[barrycoll]

both you guys are dead right....its not easy being a smaller dealer, and the 'consumer' will have to pay for any convenience that is provided....

.....but if the £££s are significant for the seller, invest £50 on a valet, take a lot of pics, write a up a history of the car, and reasons for sale etc, and at least try Autotrader for 2 weeks before doing a trade in.....the extra ££s would pay for a hire car for a couple of weeks, and leave a surplus

its amazing the number of cars that are being sold with no presentation, no story, no pics, and probably no sale