Hybrids- Are They Really Cheaper To Maintain/more Reliable

[Nicolai]

So, had a chat with my neighbor before today's dinner and he asked whether or not I had signed the papers yet. Talking about the Toyota hybrids tech, I told him the stories of priuses having done 300,000 miles with the Battery still in great condition, fewer moving parts etc.

But then it hit me: I actually don't have any facts stating hybrids are cheaper to maintain etc. have read stories on the web and on toyota website of course but for all I know, all this could just be marketing !Removed!.

Is there anywhere I can actually get some FACTS which prove the hybrids are easier to maintain and more reliable?

Thanks,

[FROSTYBALLS]

I'm a member of Which? - a product-testing and consumer campaigning charity with a magazine, website and various other services run by Which? Ltd (also known as the Consumers' Association, still the official name of the charity), and is the largest consumer organisation in the UK. Below is the main content of a recent article in Which? Conversations (have removed some of the web links as these are for members only):

"Don’t be hesitant about hybrid car reliability

It’s claimed that hybrid cars are greener, more fuel efficient, viable alternatives to normal petrol and diesel cars. But are drivers right to fear potentially astronomical repair costs of Battery components?

More manufacturers are turning to hybrid power as part of ongoing efforts to improve mpg figures and reduce emissions. Hybrids – cars powered by a conventional petrol or diesel engine and supplemented by a battery-powered electric motor – are becoming more commonplace on our roads as a result. But anxiety over battery-pack lifespans and the potential costs of replacing them have left some prospective buyers nervous.

And it’s no surprise when you start scouring the internet for indications of how much a replacement Battery will cost. For the Toyota Prius, a suggested bill of around £2,000 for a new Battery and fitting is enough to make anyone’s eyes water.

However, trying to find horror stories about batteries dying is actually a painstaking process, as it appears they are still going strong long after their warranty periods are up.

Hybrids hailed in Which? Car Survey

This is backed up by an extremely strong showing from hybrid cars in the Which? Car Survey 2013.

The Toyota Auris (2010-2013) and Honda Insight (2009-) were deemed the most reliable cars up to three years old in the medium and large-car reliability tables, respectively.

And that’s not all. In the reliability standings for cars up to three years old, the Honda Jazz Hybrid (2011-) took third slot in our supermini category, while the Lexus CT200h (2011-) placed sixth for medium cars, the Lexus RX (2009-) bagged third in 4x4s and the Honda CR-Z (2010-) was runner-up in sports cars.

What is even more confidence-inspiring is the performance of older hybrids.

The Toyota Prius – the poster boy of the hybrid market – was the fifth most reliable large car up to three years old. The third and second-generation models took first and fifth place respectively for large cars over three years old. And even the Honda Civic Hybrid, available from 2006, came 14^th in the same reliability league table behind the two Toyotas. It outscored a raft of petrol and diesel models.

You can find more information on all of these hybrid car reliability standings from our 2013 Car Survey by visiting our car reliability pages online."

[Nicolai]

Thanks. More facts will be welcomed, of course.

[theoilburner]

Well here's some facts. Toyota Hybrid's don't have a clutch, torque converter, dual mass flywheel, diesel particulate filter, starter motor, alternator, or even really a gearbox in the normal sense. There's no high pressure fuel pumps or high pressure injectors. There's no turbo or turbo intercooler. There's probably other stuff it doesn't have that you would normally find in other cars.

The water pump doesn't run off a cambelt - a known problem on many, many other normal cars where a seized water pump snaps a perfectly good cambelt and destroys the engine with it. This just can't happen with the Prius.

The engine doesn't run all the time, so it's getting an awful lot less wear. It doesn't start up from zero revs like a normal engine either, it's spun up to 1000 rpm by the motors to help it start smoothly - also putting the engine under less strain.

OK, that's doesn't prove that a Hybrid can run to massive miles without costs, but there's certainly a lot less to worry about than a normal diesel car. As long as the HV Battery, electric motors and inverters are reliable (as they appear to be from what most Prius owner's are saying), it should prove pretty solid.

Sorry if that's not the statistics you were hoping for, but it's something. I have seen in various reliability surveys the Prius comes very high, so that's got to be a good sign too.

[Nicolai]

Thanks very much. Reminds me: the fact that the ICE is on/off a lot doesn't that wear it as it is not reaching "normal engine temperature"?

From where do you have the facts stated in your post, OIlburner? Where can I find those from an official source?

[Cyker]

Well the engine running under temp just means it has crap efficiency; I'm not sure if the Atkinson cycle engines in HSDs have the same problem has diesel (i.e. take aaaages to get to operating temp) or whether they produce lots of waste heat like normal petrols and so get to operating temperature faster.

That alone won't cause any extra wear to the engine tho'; The only problem that starting and stopping an engine is that it will fry the starter motor, but since the HSD doesn't have a starter motor that wouldn't apply here :)

Some questions have been raised over engine lubrication, but I assume that's powered electrically and so it can start flowing even if the main engine isn't running?

[johalareewi]

From a "things to go wrong" point of view, Toyota hybrids don't have a lot of the items that traditionally go wrong on a car as it gets old like clutch, gearbox, alternator, starter motor, cam belts, etc. Most of the Toyota hybrid's stuff is built into the HSD as single component. So if there is a problem, it could be expensive to fix. On the plus side, the HSD is extremely reliable. It has been around for over 10 years so there is plenty of data out there to back this up. Go and google it. (for example http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2010/reliability.html?style=⊂= )

The HV Battery is super reliable too (unless it overheats) and Toyota's own Extended Warranty covers the hybrid and HV Battery so you shouldn't need to worry.

On the servicing side, there isn't much to service so prices are normal - apart form the special motor oil!

Brake pads last forever but the gen3 can suffer from the brakes sticking and wearing the pads down that way.

To get the super MPGs Toyota use LRR tyres (or fuel savers). These can cost a bit more than your average budget tyre but are similar in price to quality normal tyres. You can use budget tyres to keep costs down but your MPG will drop so you will pay out in more fuel costs. Budget tyres don't normally last as long either.

[Nicolai]

What's the name/ data of/on the special oil? Can I take it for granted that my Touring Sports comes with this from the factory?

I'm læooking to purchase winter tires. Continental traditionally do well. If I could only have Continental winter with LRR.

[Parts-King]

It is 0w 20, AFE, API SN, ILSAC GF-5, you will be able to buy it from your dealer

Kingo

[theoilburner]

Hi Nicolai, try googling how Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive works or how Prius works to find out more about the technology behind it and why Toyota were able to remove so many mechanicals you'd see in a normal car.

Here's a good start:

http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/PriusFrames.htm

It's a little out of date because it covers the earlier Prius models, but most of it is still true. Very technical, but interesting if you're of that mindset too.

Here's a great one that demonstrates how the Power Split Device (e.g. the gearbox) works:

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

As for the engine temperature, as I understand it, once you start the Prius from cold (probably true for other Toyota Hybrids too), the engine soon cuts in even if the Battery has plenty of charge, so it gets itself up to normal operating temps. Therefore it can run most efficiently when it is required.

The exception probably is if you start in EV mode? Haven't tried that yet.

[Nicolai]

It is 0w 20, AFE, API SN, ILSAC GF-5, you will be able to buy it from your dealer

Kingo

Will this oil be in it when I pick it up from the dealer?

[Parts-King]

YES, That grade is put in at the factory from new

Kingo

[Nicolai]

Nice, I just read some users on here who may have used wrong oil and their MPG suffered. I'll probably be able to save a few quid buying that oil myself and supply it to the dealer come first service, right? Any brand better than another?

[Cyker]

That sounds like a question for... the Opie oilman!!!

Hmm, I haven't seen him around for a while tho'...

[kithmo]

Well the engine running under temp just means it has crap efficiency; I'm not sure if the Atkinson cycle engines in HSDs have the same problem has diesel (i.e. take aaaages to get to operating temp) or whether they produce lots of waste heat like normal petrols and so get to operating temperature faster.

That alone won't cause any extra wear to the engine tho'; The only problem that starting and stopping an engine is that it will fry the starter motor, but since the HSD doesn't have a starter motor that wouldn't apply here :)

Some questions have been raised over engine lubrication, but I assume that's powered electrically and so it can start flowing even if the main engine isn't running?

I think the Prius has some sort of heat exchanger built in to the exhaust to aid speedy warm up.

[kithmo]

From a "things to go wrong" point of view, Toyota hybrids don't have a lot of the items that traditionally go wrong on a car as it gets old like clutch, gearbox, alternator, starter motor, cam belts, etc. Most of the Toyota hybrid's stuff is built into the HSD as single component. So if there is a problem, it could be expensive to fix. On the plus side, the HSD is extremely reliable. It has been around for over 10 years so there is plenty of data out there to back this up. Go and google it. (for example http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2010/reliability.html?style=⊂= )

The HV battery is super reliable too (unless it overheats) and Toyota's own Extended Warranty covers the hybrid and HV battery so you shouldn't need to worry.

On the servicing side, there isn't much to service so prices are normal - apart form the special motor oil!

Brake pads last forever but the gen3 can suffer from the brakes sticking and wearing the pads down that way.

To get the super MPGs Toyota use LRR tyres (or fuel savers). These can cost a bit more than your average budget tyre but are similar in price to quality normal tyres. You can use budget tyres to keep costs down but your MPG will drop so you will pay out in more fuel costs. Budget tyres don't normally last as long either.

There are budget LRR tyres available too, but the Prius tyres are not a common size so they tend to be a bit more expensive than the more common sizes.

[kithmo]

Nice, I just read some users on here who may have used wrong oil and their MPG suffered. I'll probably be able to save a few quid buying that oil myself and supply it to the dealer come first service, right? Any brand better than another?

you can buy the Toyota 0w20 stop start oil on eBay for less than the dealer charges (and sometimes they are dealers selling it).

[johalareewi]

I'm læooking to purchase winter tires. Continental traditionally do well. If I could only have Continental winter with LRR.

Winter tyre availability varies from country to country so your best bet would be to check your local tyre stockists to see what they can get. Your Toyota dealer (where you are buying your Auris from) can tell you what size tyres you will need and can probably give you a price for a set of winter tyres ;)

Continental do make LRR winter tyres for the European market (as do other manufacturers) but not in all sizes. Check the Continental website and your stockists to see what is available in your country.