Avensis 2001 Vvti Manual Pre Detonation/pinging

[waqar_lionheart]

Hi Konrad,

Thanks for getting back. I think there is a leak somewhere I just don't know where, also how do I check for blow by. I took to pipe off the other day and could feel hot air coming out. My car has two of these one coming from back of the cam cover and into the throttle body. I took this one off and this one nesrly killed the engine. Not sure if that was supposed to happen but when I took the front one from the pic off it barely made a difference but I could feel some hot air coming out. I think it's blowing by but is it right I don't know how can one check.

Regards,

Waqar

[Konrad C]

Hi Waqar,

Those pipes are the engine breather system and the fumes are sucked into the induction system. The engine needs to relieve the pressure somewhere. I could be wrong. Under load the engine developes more pressure, which may cause a blow by that may not show with the car at standstill.

Clean all the muck off the engine using an engine degreaser or cleaner, so you have a completely clean engine.

Then you will see new stains which should pinpoint the area of the leak.

I have to say that by looking at your pictures you posted you engine is a bit oily.

Here are a few picture of my engine to give you an idea. Remember this is a 15 year old engine.

You can see a bit of oil blow by on my cam hose, but it is only localised.

Do you run with the engine cover and if so, is that oily?

It is the process of elimination.

Konrad

[waqar_lionheart]

Hi Konrad,

I am going to resurrect this one even though the situation has improved since I have bee using premium grade fuel. Never the less, it still occassionally raises its ugly head. While I am not obsessed with it, I was just thinking, is my car supposed to die when I take out off one of the connectors of my ignition coil????? because that is what happens when I take off any one. It dies and registers a dtc.I am wondering and have heard, its not supposed to die. This is making me think that my coil pack might be bad. BUT THEN WOULD THE PROBLEM NOT BE AROUND THE WHOLE TIME?????????? I dont know what to make of this. Any help is very welcome. Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Waqar

[Konrad C]

Hi Waqar,

My car also has a little pre-detonation which I tend to only notice at very light throttle travelling at slow speeds. When I increase the throttle the pre-detonation disappears and the car pulls cleanly. I can just about hear it with the window down, but most of the time it is hardly noticeable.

With the windows up, I cannot hear any pinging. Now remember, my car is 15 years old and it performs very well. How does doing 320 miles with half a tank petrol sound.

Now if you cannot hear the pinging with the windows up, and it is barely audible through open window, I would not worry to much.

You will have to dismantle, inspect, every aspect of the fuel and induction system. Make sure there are no leaks in the induction side. Do the same for the vacuum side. Make sure the throttle position sensor is working properly - this will be tricky. You have already checked the knock sensor.

One thing I have not done is change my fuel filter which may be overdue( by 10 years), so I may do that very soon.

You are using higher octane fuel like 98-99 ron petrol, and the car still pings then something is not right. The ECU map may be slightly out. I don't know if it possible to remap Toyota ECU's and it may be costly. I have pulled the ECU fuse and waited for about 30 seconds then driven the car to relearn a new map. That means driving slow, medium, up hills, pulling from low revs through to medium high, so that the ECU remembers the correct settings. The revs I use are between just under 1300 rpm to 3500 rpm. That covers most of the normal working range used ( I hardly ever go close to 4000 rpm or over).

Now remember your engine drives differently to mine. I have read on the forum in the past that somebody who drove both versions said that the vvti is gutless at low engine speeds compared to the leanburn. Then when the revs are over 4000 rpm the vvti really comes to life. So you have to drive in a slightly higher rev range to keep the engine happy. I can pull from 20 mph in 4th gear without any pinging and it accelerates cleanly. I was on the motorway on Sunday and accelerated from just under 60 mph to a bit over 70 mph in 5th gear to overtake, and the car behind me was signalling to do the same. I did my mirror signal maneuver and was gone. The car following could not keep up! He/she forced faster cars to slow down. Probably a turbo diesel with high gearing hence turbo off spool.

Now if your car pinged whilst doing that, then you would have a very serious problem.

What car did you have before this Avensis? The reason why I ask is what I said above about engine characteristics. Sometimes you have to adjust your driving style which you have done.

That was long but trying to cover everything.

Konrad

[waqar_lionheart]

many many Thanks for replying.

320 MILES PER HALF A TANK is Bl**** MARVELLLLLLLLOUSSS. How on earth??????????????????

I have to say, very impressed. I also have to say that pinking is now nominal since i have kept the oil levels up as well as using higher grade fuel. i am going to try and put in injector cleaner. I bet your exhuast pipe has no soot. Mine does and thats what keeps me thinking that I must have a mixture issue somewhere. Its my little project.

I am gonna check the injectors for leak next with either soap and water or wd40. I am a little bit concerned here as I might have an air leak (reading other forums that seals around injectors can leak and cause air/fuel ratio to go out. is this true???? also can engine oil leak around the injectors as well??? that seems next to impossible and I am more leaning towards this being an old oil spillage which kinda becomes liquidy as engine gets hot). I am also going to check for my spark plugs and see if its still running lean.

I shall keep TOC posted.

Regards,
Waqar

[Konrad C]

many many Thanks for replying.

320 MILES PER HALF A TANK is Bl**** MARVELLLLLLLLOUSSS. How on earth??????????????????

I have to say, very impressed. I also have to say that pinking is now nominal since i have kept the oil levels up as well as using higher grade fuel. i am going to try and put in injector cleaner. I bet your exhuast pipe has no soot. Mine does and thats what keeps me thinking that I must have a mixture issue somewhere. Its my little project.

I am gonna check the injectors for leak next with either soap and water or wd40. I am a little bit concerned here as I might have an air leak (reading other forums that seals around injectors can leak and cause air/fuel ratio to go out. is this true???? also can engine oil leak around the injectors as well??? that seems next to impossible and I am more leaning towards this being an old oil spillage which kinda becomes liquidy as engine gets hot). I am also going to check for my spark plugs and see if its still running lean.

I shall keep TOC posted.

Regards,

Waqar

The leanburn engine does what it is designed to do. Run very lean using as little fuel as possible and at motorway speeds at 3000 rpm, it at peak torque on very light throttle. There is a green 'econ' indicator showing the car is in lean mode, unless the throttle is pressed further for power when the light goes out. Even in town the car averages 35 mpg. The vvti should be better according to figures.

I must say that I had a Cavalier which had longer gearing, was not as economical.

[waqar_lionheart]

Hi Konrad,

Yesterday i took my little monster for a ride and I have to say that now the pinging is negligable and where i used to be able to make it pink/ping, it is now harder to do. I have to say that weather and my keeping my oil level tip top might have something to do with it but I am glad I am seeing the back of it. Also having said that last night when I was checking the oil levels and stuff I noticed that my coolant level is about a 1 cm below the max mark. I had the car a year and had to only put in half a glass of water to top it up. It just got me thinking what is acceptable level of coolant loss and where does acceptable stop and becomes a symptom of a problem. Any opinions much appreciated.

Also just wondering do you know anyone who can guide me towards changing the head gasket(ONLY AND ONLY IF IT IS WRONG), I am not scared of taking on a project but at the same time dont want to make my car Kaput as well as when doing that can I uprate my pistons. How hard or easy is it to do.???

Also I check my engine code on the side of engine yesterday and it is E1Z T72R. Is that still 1zzfe or is that the modified block??? any help is much appreciated.

Regards,

Waqar

[waqar_lionheart]

Also had some time on my hands yesterday so decided to read old threads and found that people have reported two cures for this (well 3 really with super 99 octane fuel). Few said that this was the alternator bearing and the belt was loose so they had the serpentine belt (mine is squeaking a bit on cold starts and is not loose but when i press it with my finger according to Haynes manual it should dip a little bit and it does BUT what is a little bit. I am bit lad and can cause bit of an extra dip :) )replaced or alternator bearing replaced or alternator replaced and the sound went. Others reported that when taken the car to toyota it turned out to be new ecu required and after the ECU was changed (apparently it had new values for timing) pinging disappeared. Bit of a head scratcher. Dont know still. When talking about the belt, people mentioned V - Belt. When googled it found that its similar to or same as serpentine belt. I will change mine at some point and see if that cures the problem.

Regards,

Waqar

[Konrad C]

Also had some time on my hands yesterday so decided to read old threads and found that people have reported two cures for this (well 3 really with super 99 octane fuel). Few said that this was the alternator bearing and the belt was loose so they had the serpentine belt (mine is squeaking a bit on cold starts and is not loose but when i press it with my finger according to Haynes manual it should dip a little bit and it does BUT what is a little bit. I am bit lad and can cause bit of an extra dip :) )replaced or alternator bearing replaced or alternator replaced and the sound went. Others reported that when taken the car to toyota it turned out to be new ecu required and after the ECU was changed (apparently it had new values for timing) pinging disappeared. Bit of a head scratcher. Dont know still. When talking about the belt, people mentioned V - Belt. When googled it found that its similar to or same as serpentine belt. I will change mine at some point and see if that cures the problem.

Regards,

Waqar

Hi Waqar,

Glad the pinging is less noticeable. keep the treatment going until you are happy. The car may have had a lot of short journeys earlier in it's life before you owned it. Saves on expensive ECU change.

There is a way to check and test the belt. First look at the belt for cracks on the inner ribbed section, this shows more where the belt goes around a pulley like a tensioner. Also check the out band for shreading and splits. Secondly, using a lubricant spray (I am not sure which type) or belt spray, that should see if the belt gets more quiet. If it does then the belt has stretched or is worn, so needs to be changed.

If the belt is in good condition then you need to look at the bearings and pulleys.

Serpentine belts have a hard life, in that they bend both ways, driving auxiliary pumps and the alternator and being long.

I cannot comment on the engine or if the numbers you quoted mean anything.

Konrad

[waqar_lionheart]

Hi Konrad,

As per PM I am attaching my spark plugs. I think a little white like but the middle bit is a light brown colour. Opinions are very welcome.

Regards,

Waqar

[Konrad C]

Waqar,

Goggle spark plug condition and you will get responses showing pictures of spark plugs show how they look after various combustion.

I think a bit of oil may have got through, the threads look oily. Once you have stopped the oil leak, the car may run even better.

Give the plugs a bit of clean. They look okay. What brand are they?

[waqar_lionheart]

I know the thread looks a bit oily but its not really. I ran my fingers over the thread and nothing I also took my led light and looked in well/bore where plugs sit and luckily nothing.

In a way I am pleased my engine doesnt burn ANY OIL (Nohthing in exhaust and nothing fouling the plugs) and its a leak but having realised how big a job this is i might leave it leaking. Do you have any experience of using oil additives that stop leaking ( i read about them and these work by rejuvinating the rubber so it expands and creates a better seal)?

This forum is a pleasure as always.

Best Regards,

Waqar

[BigMo82]

Waqar, are they Iridium plugs? My understanding was the vvti engines really need Iridium plugs like Denso or NGK.

Mo

[waqar_lionheart]

No these are not. I know they need irridium plugs but when i bought them i was a bit tight on budget and doing this wasnt exactly on top of my list. i have kept my previous ones and they were not in bad shape at all so if these start to give me any problems, I ll change them.

Regrads,

Waqar

[waqar_lionheart]

These are from denso though.

[Konrad C]

I know the thread looks a bit oily but its not really. I ran my fingers over the thread and nothing I also took my led light and looked in well/bore where plugs sit and luckily nothing.

In a way I am pleased my engine doesnt burn ANY OIL (Nohthing in exhaust and nothing fouling the plugs) and its a leak but having realised how big a job this is i might leave it leaking. Do you have any experience of using oil additives that stop leaking ( i read about them and these work by rejuvinating the rubber so it expands and creates a better seal)?

This forum is a pleasure as always.

Best Regards,

Waqar

I have never heard of additives that stops oil leaks. Like the sound idea though.

If it can slow or stop the leak, then it would be a good stop gap measure. The way it reacts with rubberized seals makes sense, because it is not going to block oil ways.

Love to know if somebody has tried it. May be you Waqar.

Konrad

[waqar_lionheart]

Hi Konrad,

Just an update. I did a few short trips during the week which i know were very few miles not enough to make the car warm, this then resulted in the pinging/pinking returning. Slightly disappointed. However, I am thinking that I am going to try BG44K and if that does not work then I ll probably get my injectors cleaned/serviced. i searched for this and its around £60.00 for 4. I am still using super 99RON. Just wondering a leaking exhaust manifold would cause a car to run lean? is it possible that its making o2 sensors not pointing out that the mixture is lean as mixture gases have leaked and cause the mixture to seem ok? I am just wondering. Trying to fix it on the cheap. I really hope its not ECU as that would be crap and how come it went bad all of a sudden. Also would years of running lean alter anything in the ecu? I.e. Has my ecu learnt from it? would taking the efi and ecu fuse out cause it to relearn? ( I am sure many posters have said this already just double checking). looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Regards,

Waqar

[waqar_lionheart]

Also my spark plugs are Bosch not Denso. My mistake earlier for saying (may be in this thread or another that these are denso) earlier that they are denso. Just out of curiosity, Igor said to check for a bad or going bad alternator in a thread about engine knock/pinging thread as it can cause a lean spot. I am saying this as I think when idle or under low rpm, if i touch the brakes, the dash lights dim and if i am playing music, on idle it dims the (ever so slightly) lights with bass. Just wondering. Really appreciate all the help.

Regards,

Waqar

[waqar_lionheart]

also dirty MAF? would that cause an issue, I think if that was the case, It would be causing an issue all the time or not? dont know. Help please.

Regards,

Waqar

[waqar_lionheart]

Also the purpose of fan that comes on to remove heat from the engine. Can i lower the temperature at which the fan has to come on? could that be causing my engine to knock sometimes or when talking about running hot we are talking about temperature and hot spots with in a cylinder and making the fan run sooner will not make a difference?

just throwing ideas around, please no body be upset about it.

Regards,

Waqar

[Konrad C]

Hi Waqar once again,

Try the BG44. That should clean the injectors. You are aware of the fuel filter.

Make sure the earth straps,cable are well connected. Dimming lights are a sign of bad earthing. You cannot change the fan stat temperature range directly. You have to install an external device. I would leave that alone, plus I don't think it makes any difference.

Recap on the things - clean spark plugs, clean the engine due to your oil leak.

Make sure all the induction pipes do not leak and that the inlet manifold is okay.

If and when the clutch starts slipping due to the seal leak, replace it and the seal.

Somebody needs to see your car and see how bad the pinging is (like seeing Big Mo's smoking car).

That way your car can get closer to being fixed. By the way. Are you playing the music to drown out the pinging?

You don't want to throw money at the car.

Konrad

[waqar_lionheart]

Thanks for you reply Konrad,

Yeah I have checked and things appear to earthed properly. I have to say i ought to check my Battery and alternator. Also i am a bit unsure the alternator still as evening playing the music would dim the lights slightly( not turning the radio on but the bass would slightly dim it. its as if its timed with the beat). Do you know how to check Battery and alternator. Can a weak alternatory affect timing in any way? I will get my car looked at. I am wanna make sure that I dont get ripped off by people checking things and charging me for time for things that I can do myself.

Best Regards,

Waqar

[waqar_lionheart]

also how to check if ignition coils are firing as they should? i.e. voltage or resistance with a multi meter. if so then how to check as I am absolutely useless when it comes to things like that. I once blew my starter messing around withoud disconnecting the Battery. :).

[Konrad C]

Hi Waqar,

I don't think you should touch your coil packs. So long as your alternator is providing the correct current, there should be no problem.

Last year I blew the 60 amp fusible link by accidently shorting the alternator, whilst trying to change to coolant.

The amount of work needed to change it was a lot.

This morning I had to take the starter off and clean it further because it was sometimes not engaging. That was after cleaning all the clutch dust because the starter was sticking. All fixed now, and beat the rain.

Konrad

[waqar_lionheart]

Hi Konrad,

Hope you are well. I am please to report that my pinging/pre detonation issue has been resolved. After much head scratching trying to find an air leak or checking for blocked or sticky injectors or injector o rings and stuff leaking to bad alternator and bad coil pack, It turns out that I needed to reset the ecu efi mapping. This was done the other day when I took out the fuses for 30 mins. NOW I am pleased to report that there is hardly any soot in the exhaust, my car is delivery a lot more power in lower revs, there is no pinking but my ears still ring occasionally but my wife/assistant said that she cant hear anything and neither could I. so very very pleased in all. I wanted to thank you and the rest of TOC for all the help. I know you said to unplug the fuse, but i never got round to doing it and when I did, it has fixed the problem. Thank GOD.

Now then on to other things. My rear main seal. I am gonna try and convince my mechanic friend to let me do the work and charge me little bit to supervise but not a lot. :).

We shall see how it goes.

Best Regards,

Waqar