Another Engine Story

[Big Kev]

Just in case it gets missed, please see new member surfdood1969 posting in the pinned section of Charlie Farlie's Guide, etc......, or perhaps a kindly moderator could move the poor guy's post on here to General Forum. This SHOULD BE READ......what a bloody debaclement FFS......

Big Kev

[three5]

Just in case it gets missed, please see new member surfdood1969 posting in the pinned section of Charlie Farlie's Guide, etc......, or perhaps a kindly moderator could move the poor guy's post on here to General Forum. This SHOULD BE READ......what a !Removed! debaclement FFS......

Big Kev

Don't like the sound of this one Kev. Reminiscent of that other case that came up where the dealer stripped the engine rather that consulting TGB I think!

[Big Kev]

Please, mammy, naw.......that would be a disaster.....again.

[surfdood1969]

Thanks again for this...

[FROSTYBALLS]

Post copied onto this topic:

"surfdood1969, on 17 Aug 2013 - 16:45, said:

Hello I have a 2006 Rav4 XT4 2.2d-4d. All has been fine until Nov 2012. It has only 57K on clock. MPG has dropped and required the odd oil top up when the light came on. Performance was sluggish, we assumed a service was required. About 3 weeks later it started smoking on acceleration which got thicker over a short period of time. Took it to Toyota - Ron Brooks Mansfield who determined that it was the injectors. They initially advised trying a cleaner however this did not work and then in Dec 2012 one of the injector seals went, lost al power so it hobbled to the garage. We were quoted over £2K to sort, job came out at £2K eventually. I asked if there was anything Toyota could do. Submitted service history - 75% with dealership others with garage scheme garages. Vehicle has been cared for - it cost us a small fortune to buy!! Evidently carbon clogging was a caused by the injectors failing which no doubt would have built up in the engine in other areas. Service manager came back to me saying there is nothing Toyota can do as we were outside the warranty period however in the meantime he managed to get the injectors at cost saving me few hundred ££. Mmm my heckles were raised however desperate for the car back, so I refinanced the vehicle. Injectors fitted and full service to ensure nothing else like this would happen again. All was fine, except the sudden noise form the rear suspension that was never there before. We had only done 2K miles when suddenly on Aug 14th 2013 the engine catastrophically failed with an onslaught of loud tapping. Toyota same dealership have the vehicle and stated it like the pistons. They quoted 10hrs labour for an investigative search to confirm then if it is pistons 2 options - £3k to replace them or £4300 to replace engine. Remember this is a 2006 reg with only 57k miles?? So here I am having to take another £3K loan out for the next job, so that's nearly £7K in the space of 5 months for a reliable brand?? Naturally we have investigated this and still are before Ron Brooks get to touch this vehicle. I have now read this warrant extension and understand that this may have been an option for the first injector issue. There is always cause and effect with engine failures and the questions has to be asked what caused the injectors to fail in a young engine, did this go on to cause the final blow? My investigation which may involve legal advice will be around this. If I find that Toyota could / should have maybe replaced the pistons and other parts due to probable carbon clogging then its going to get messy. Recompense for both jobs, loan, interests and damages. Whether I buy another Rav4 or any Toyota product is in the balance due to this horrendous mess. Will keep you updated, but this is war!! Any thoughts or advice will be welcomed."

[Big Kev]

Cheers Mikey Coldbits.......

[CharlieFarlie]

Debaclement ??? Flaming hell !!!

The OP MUST get in touch with Toyota GB customer care.. If the above is true then its clear that the Dealer who lets remember is a franchise has simply not followed the guidelines set out in the current policy for dealing with this very common engine scenario.

A word of caution regarding getting into litigation though.. With respect if you did not have the 3K in the tommy tank to fix the car do Not go to a solicitor who will eat 3K before lunch.

Try Customer care and ask to speak directly to a senior Manager..

Good luck.

[Big Kev]

Simon........nurra point......you say you must get it fixed as it is the family transport....?

My advice would be seek out another method of transport and touch not this vehicle any further. The next work to be done to this may hopefully be a replacement engine, so any further interference with it could only complicate matters. Even a budget hire car would be cheaper than the money you were about to throw at it, misguided by a rogue of a dealer. You must certainly seek out help from Toyota GB as Charlie suggests, and sorry......this is gonnae be a protracted exercise.

If legal advice is as you say a wee perk, no harm in having input therefrom, but keep yer powder dry until Toyota respond.

Awribest,

Big Kev

[CharlieFarlie]

Questions..

You say.................

MPG has dropped and required the odd oil top up when the light came on.....

This is the Number 1 indicator of the 2AD engine starting to give notice,, This is VERY common and should be recognized by competent personal..

You say........

I asked if there was anything Toyota could do. Submitted service history - 75% with dealership others with garage scheme garages.

​Unless this garage Dealership was in deepest outer Mongolia how could they fail to recognize that there is and has been an issue with all cars fitted with the 2AD series of engine from 2006 up to 2009...

You say........

They initially advised trying a cleaner

This is known as urinating in the wind..

You say........

Evidently carbon clogging was a caused by the injectors failing which no doubt would have built up in the engine in other areas.

Complete and utter rubbish..

You say...........

Service manager came back to me saying there is nothing Toyota can do as we were outside the warranty period

There is and has been for some years now a repair/replacement policy specifically in place to deal with the 2AD engine issues. Period of this "Good will warranty" is 7 years from registration or 111.000 miles.. How is it even remotely possible that a srvice "Manager" could not be aware of this ? You just cant get the staff in outer Mongolia ??

You say......

We had only done 2K miles when suddenly on Aug 14th 2013 the engine catastrophically failed with an onslaught of loud tapping.

Not entirely happy with this bit.. Is it possible you ran it to low on oil ? However I raised the question with a service Manager at a Dealership in the Midlands (He did not originate from outer Mongolia) as to what would happen . His reply was that the cause would be the engine drank oil so the car would still be covered.. Not sure on this one though !

You say.......

They quoted 10hrs lab our for an investigative search to confirm then if it is pistons 2 options - £3k to replace them or £4300 to replace engine.

None of this makes any sense.. Assuming this thread is not a wind up .................

10 Hours to investigate ?? What exactly ? Do we in this day and age expect a 10 hour strip to tell us what must surely have been evident ? Again why would a dealer do this when its such a common issue

YOU MUST NOT ALLOW THE DEALERSHIP TO STRIP THIS ENGINE !! Go directly to Toyota GB !!

.

[Big Kev]

Oops.......what was that film......."Bora Bora Bora....".........Japan attacks Pearl Harbor (note spelling......)

"I think we have awakened a sleeping bear....."

LOL

[surfdood1969]

Thanks, this is no wind up......car is at Ron Brooks Mansfield and I am one unhappy and stressed out bunny. I have transport to go to work, 10yr old Z4 however that's not good for 2 kids, a dog and the wife going to work.

Re oil - oil was not low, checked when I flew back from Majorca (27th July) as it was parked up at airport for 2 weeks.

I contacted TGB got through to a Customer Service Manager obviously I was not wise to the problem we have here, and they stated that it was not under warranty and that I don't have an extended warranty in place so nothing I can do, she was quite unhelpful and typical policy pusher. I asked for it to escalated and she said she would pass it up the line. I assume they will think I am naive and wont have this knowledge of the 2AD engine.

Do I phone them back and make them aware of all the knowledge I have on this 2AD failings and hope for the best or am I going to get the same frosty response. I already have a ref number. I am not in the position to throw money at another lease vehicle, as you can see I have had to borrow £6K in relation to this mess which is not far from the value of the vehicle now!!

Thanks again, if it was not for this forum I would not have learned of this issue in the first place.

[Paulus17]

Hello Simon and welcome

I hope you get this mess sorted out and under the warranty.

[CharlieFarlie]

Simon.. Firstly you must go back immediately to TGB and ask to speak to that senior manager !! This I feel is imperative !

You main questions should be

1 Why on earth were you advised that there is no warranty when we know for sure there is !!

I would ask for names and record times and of course the content of the converastion.

2 There is the extended "Good will warranty! so what happens now ?

3 What about the cost thus far ? IE as You were given bad and frankly untrue information your costs have been not only unnecessary but are escalating !

You simply must not allow the dealer to strip that engine. If they do it will be against the very strict guidelines set out in the goodwill warranty as the old engine (When being replaced under the good will warranty) must be returned to Japan and indeed this unit has a very sizable deposit on it.. DO NOT ALLOW THE DEALER TO TAKE THAT ENGINE APART ..

My next move would be to make an appointment to see the Dealer Principle and ask for an explanation as to why the service manager has advised incorrectly at major expense to yourself ? There is something very wrong here !

Tell you what.. PM me your number if you wish ? I will ring you and try to help if I can

.

[Devon Aygo]

The biggest issue here is as the initial post stated his injectors where found to be faulty at no time has he had excessive engine oil consumption or cylinder head gasket failure confirmed. Injector failure can and will cause carbon build up and there is no warranty extension for injector failure, the failure of injectors can cause sudden engine failure such as piston failure and at no time have I ever seen the oil consumption or head gasket issue to cause a sudden engine failure.

As is always the case here on a forum we only have one side of a story and we are relying on the poster being 100% truthful with there information which may not always be the case, yet the forum contributors have immediately assumed that the cause of the issue must be the well documented oil consumption issue. As the original post stated both oil and coolant levels where fine at the point of failure, so it would seem the issue is not the oil consumption issue and as the engine is now dead we will probably never get to confirm this.

The owner is well out of warranty and has lost any claim for goodwill by using non franchised servicing, the only possible claim he may have is if the injectors repair was carried out within the last 12 months and that the dealer can show the engine failure was caused by a faulty injector. Beyond that it is going to an unfortunately expensive episode.

[surfdood1969]

So am I an Honest person? - why would I waste my time trying justify that fact. I am already £6K down as I have already borrowed the money based on the fact that all this effort is a waste of time as quite evidently from the last post I am doomed. So the upstart is I am paying £30K for what was a £22K motor and will not get the full value of the car back due to its history when selling on and with having a reman engine. This is of course will not include the monthly interest I have had to find on refinancing the car TWICE in 5months! I have not miss treated the vehicle, I have kept the oil levels up and taking the vehicle to a Garage Scheme Garage is perfectly acceptable - its been serviced that's all they need to know which is RESONABLE CARE legally!

My question is, as there is clear contradiction on the forum - do I bother, curl up and just get engine replaced and "suck it up". Trust me if I do this my story will go global as I will have intent to damage the brand like they have damaged me...or do I fight this and hope it fits the extended warranty put in place.

This is a failure by TOYOTA not me, all I did was drive the car like any normal person would for school runs, work and the odd holiday drive to Devon.

The injectors failed - why, what caused them to fail, never explained to me at the time, just that sometimes they do. Its strange that they are massed produced and have a manufacturing standard so something must have caused them to fail at such a young age. The car did 5K miles not 2K miles between replacement and this episode, is this enough mileage for the new injectors to cause fault to the pistons - for example working too lean burning the pistons. I have had the vehicle stall three times with all the lights coming on, Toyota plugged it in and nothing?

Please no more comments about my integrity and honesty - I am a hard working professional person, with a young family who has had the worst of all luck.

Thank you for your help to date.

[firemac]

So am I an Honest person? - why would I waste my time trying justify that fact. I am already £6K down as I have already borrowed the money based on the fact that all this effort is a waste of time as quite evidently from the last post I am doomed. So the upstart is I am paying £30K for what was a £22K motor and will not get the full value of the car back due to its history when selling on and with having a reman engine. This is of course will not include the monthly interest I have had to find on refinancing the car TWICE in 5months! I have not miss treated the vehicle, I have kept the oil levels up and taking the vehicle to a Garage Scheme Garage is perfectly acceptable - its been serviced that's all they need to know which is RESONABLE CARE legally!

My question is, as there is clear contradiction on the forum - do I bother, curl up and just get engine replaced and "suck it up". Trust me if I do this my story will go global as I will have intent to damage the brand like they have damaged me...or do I fight this and hope it fits the extended warranty put in place.

This is a failure by TOYOTA not me, all I did was drive the car like any normal person would for school runs, work and the odd holiday drive to Devon.

The injectors failed - why, what caused them to fail, never explained to me at the time, just that sometimes they do. Its strange that they are massed produced and have a manufacturing standard so something must have caused them to fail at such a young age. The car did 5K miles not 2K miles between replacement and this episode, is this enough mileage for the new injectors to cause fault to the pistons - for example working too lean burning the pistons. I have had the vehicle stall three times with all the lights coming on, Toyota plugged it in and nothing?

Please no more comments about my integrity and honesty - I am a hard working professional person, with a young family who has had the worst of all luck.

Thank you for your help to date.

Simon, Big Kev's advice is sound & I'd suggest that you follow it meanwhile.

In my experience, over 13 years or so, Toyota tend to be very good re customer service but it does depend upon the dealer. I've got a horror story about a particular dealer and it almost caused me to give up on Toyota completely but then again I've had brilliant service from a dozen other Toyota dealers (UK & France) that has more than made up for it.

If your current dealer doesn't perform then look to another and I'm sure that there will be many on the forum who will be able to recommend others near to you. My advice would be to stick to your facts, tell them courteously but firmly and keep TGB & the forum up to speed. It may not be the dreaded engine problem but some other cause. Nevertheless this approach stands the best chance of getting an early resolution.

Very best of luck.

[surfdood1969]

Thanks Jim I will do that. I am from a legal background but not this area, but can put a professional argument forward asking for resolution. Winter is only a few weeks away and I can only do without the vehicle for so long. Ironically I was actually looking to part exchange this for the new RAV in a short time however not going to happen now...

[Devon Aygo]

So am I an Honest person? - why would I waste my time trying justify that fact. I am already £6K down as I have already borrowed the money based on the fact that all this effort is a waste of time as quite evidently from the last post I am doomed. So the upstart is I am paying £30K for what was a £22K motor and will not get the full value of the car back due to its history when selling on and with having a reman engine. This is of course will not include the monthly interest I have had to find on refinancing the car TWICE in 5months! I have not miss treated the vehicle, I have kept the oil levels up and taking the vehicle to a Garage Scheme Garage is perfectly acceptable - its been serviced that's all they need to know which is RESONABLE CARE legally!

My question is, as there is clear contradiction on the forum - do I bother, curl up and just get engine replaced and "suck it up". Trust me if I do this my story will go global as I will have intent to damage the brand like they have damaged me...or do I fight this and hope it fits the extended warranty put in place.

This is a failure by TOYOTA not me, all I did was drive the car like any normal person would for school runs, work and the odd holiday drive to Devon.

The injectors failed - why, what caused them to fail, never explained to me at the time, just that sometimes they do. Its strange that they are massed produced and have a manufacturing standard so something must have caused them to fail at such a young age. The car did 5K miles not 2K miles between replacement and this episode, is this enough mileage for the new injectors to cause fault to the pistons - for example working too lean burning the pistons. I have had the vehicle stall three times with all the lights coming on, Toyota plugged it in and nothing?

Please no more comments about my integrity and honesty - I am a hard working professional person, with a young family who has had the worst of all luck.

Thank you for your help to date.

Sorry if offended it was not my intention, I was merely pointing out the one sided nature of an Internet forum where opinion rather than actual fact is to often relied on.

The cold hard facts are at the moment you are in an awful position one that every one here will sympathise with whole heartedly, here is how I see your situation ATM:

Manufacturers standard warranty - No cover, out by age.

Oil consumption extension - No measured confirmation therefore no cover

Goodwill from Toyota - Are you the original owner? No

Do you have full TOYOTA service history ? No

Did you buy from a Toyota dealer? ?

Parts warranty on the injectors - If they can be shown to be the cause of the failure then yes this should cover your repair.

Sale of goods act on the car - this applies between you and the person/organisation that sold you the car.

Sale of goods act on the injectors - You would have to use an independent engineer to prove that the parts where faulty or the dealer negligent in their duty of care towards you.

Beyond the above paying for the repair is unfortunately the only real option left. I really do hope that a fair resolution can be found and soon.

[surfdood1969]

No offence taken.

Manufacturers standard warranty - No cover, out by age. Yes so Toyota reminded me a dozen times.
Oil consumption extension - No measured confirmation therefore no cover. I have an independent specialist reviewing all the service history, there are some fuel consumption anomalies which exceed the figure on the warrant, however this was recorded by the trust worthy garage I used for a year - 2010..
Goodwill from Toyota - Are you the original owner? Yes I bought this from new
Do you have full TOYOTA service history ? No but have a full service history, one service not with TGB
Did you buy from a Toyota dealer? Yes - Swansea
Parts warranty on the injectors - If they can be shown to be the cause of the failure then yes this should cover your repair. Investigation
Sale of goods act on the car - this applies between you and the person/organisation that sold you the car. - 6 years, opportunity gone.
Sale of goods act on the injectors - You would have to use an independent engineer to prove that the parts where faulty or the dealer negligent in their duty of care towards you. Yes and part of plan - can new injectors cause burnout on pistons in 5 months (5K miles) is the question and did they is the investigation.

[CharlieFarlie]

1.The biggest issue here is as the initial post stated his injectors where found to be faulty at no time has he had excessive engine oil consumption or cylinder head gasket failure confirmed. Injector failure can and will cause carbon build up and 2.here is no warranty extension for injector failure, the failure of injectors can cause sudden engine failure such as piston failure and at no time have I ever seen the oil consumption or head gasket issue to cause a sudden engine failure.

As is always the case here on a forum we only have one side of a story and we are relying on the poster being 100% truthful with there information which may not always be the case, yet the forum contributors have immediately assumed that the cause of the issue must be the well documented oil consumption issue. As the original post stated both oil and coolant levels where fine at the point of failure, so it would seem the issue is not the oil consumption issue and as the engine is now dead we will probably never get to confirm this.

3.The owner is well out of warranty and has lost any claim for goodwill by using non franchised servicing, 4. the only possible claim he may have is if the injectors repair was carried out within the last 12 months and that the dealer can show the engine failure was caused by a faulty injector. Beyond that it is going to an unfortunately expensive episode.

1.Firstly the main pointer of problems is that the engine soots or carbons up . This Should have been recognised !

2 Sorry incorrect. Dealers are at discretion at the time of engine replacement to change not only Injectors but the DPNR if found needed. So there is warranty..

3. This is completely incorrect ! The criteria demands the car must have been serviced in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations. It was made a consumer law some years ago that manufacturers cannot demand Franchised Dealer servicing as this captivates that consumer into Dealer only servicing which means Dealers could raise the cost of said servicing if they wanted to..

4. Sorry but the car is still under the extended "Good will" warranty so why can the OP not claim on this if the car is found to suffering with the usual and very very common issues ?

Im not even going to go into the part where you say it could not be able to fail if the coolant and oil levels were fine.. Its to complex and irrelevant anyway..

If an engine fails big style IE It self destructs and the Dealer suspects it cause was down to the usual woes they can and will replace it ..

It is not a requirement that the vehicle be the possession of its first or original owner for both the standard OR extended warranty... Car could be in the 10th owners hands and still be covered ..

Of course we only have the OPs side of the story but this is not the first time this has happened and sadly I doubt it will be the last..

Our answers can only be based on what we are told here ?

My opinion by the way is worth exactly what you paid for it ...........

[surfdood1969]

^{Interesting link....}

^{http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/60163-toyota-22-diesel-we-need-to-replace-your-engine-sir/}

[surfdood1969]

Thanks and perfect - yes I am having a crash course in the working of a 2AD engine....

[saggyknackersack]

simon my heart goes out to you, its a nightmare. What I can't understsand is knowing there's a problem with this engine why didn't they do the relevant tests straight away? I can't believe what I'm reading just lately about these problems because in my opinion an 06 plate car should not have any issues like this no matter where it stems from, now I know my experience with the dealership was first class but this still shouldn't happen in the first place. Its disgraceful.

[dwilson]

Simon, I hope Toyota sort this out for you - what a nightmare.

David

[Devon Aygo]

No offence taken.

Manufacturers standard warranty - No cover, out by age. Yes so Toyota reminded me a dozen times.

Oil consumption extension - No measured confirmation therefore no cover. I have an independent specialist reviewing all the service history, there are some fuel consumption anomalies which exceed the figure on the warrant, however this was recorded by the trust worthy garage I used for a year - 2010.. Fuel consumption has nothing to do with the extended warranty, the warranty concerns excessive engine oil consumption, you will to document that the engine was burning more than half a litre of oil every 621 miles to qualify for the extended warranty.

Goodwill from Toyota - Are you the original owner? Yes I bought this from new

Do you have full TOYOTA service history ? No but have a full service history, one service not with TGB Whilst full service history is good Toyota are looking for a Full Toyota history when it comes to goodwill. In warranty all you need is proof of servicing according to Toyota's standards, out of warranty you need full Toyota history, non Toyota history = a lack if goodwill from you to Toyota.

Did you buy from a Toyota dealer? Yes - Swansea

Parts warranty on the injectors - If they can be shown to be the cause of the failure then yes this should cover your repair. Investigation

Sale of goods act on the car - this applies between you and the person/organisation that sold you the car. - 6 years, opportunity gone.

Sale of goods act on the injectors - You would have to use an independent engineer to prove that the parts where faulty or the dealer negligent in their duty of care towards you. Yes and part of plan - can new injectors cause burnout on pistons in 5 months (5K miles) is the question and did they is the investigation.