Another Engine Story

[Devon Aygo]

1.The biggest issue here is as the initial post stated his injectors where found to be faulty at no time has he had excessive engine oil consumption or cylinder head gasket failure confirmed. Injector failure can and will cause carbon build up and 2.here is no warranty extension for injector failure, the failure of injectors can cause sudden engine failure such as piston failure and at no time have I ever seen the oil consumption or head gasket issue to cause a sudden engine failure.

As is always the case here on a forum we only have one side of a story and we are relying on the poster being 100% truthful with there information which may not always be the case, yet the forum contributors have immediately assumed that the cause of the issue must be the well documented oil consumption issue. As the original post stated both oil and coolant levels where fine at the point of failure, so it would seem the issue is not the oil consumption issue and as the engine is now dead we will probably never get to confirm this.3.The owner is well out of warranty and has lost any claim for goodwill by using non franchised servicing, 4. the only possible claim he may have is if the injectors repair was carried out within the last 12 months and that the dealer can show the engine failure was caused by a faulty injector. Beyond that it is going to an unfortunately expensive episode.

1.Firstly the main pointer of problems is that the engine soots or carbons up . This Should have been recognised !

2 Sorry incorrect. Dealers are at discretion at the time of engine replacement to change not only Injectors but the DPNR if found needed. So there is warranty..

3. This is completely incorrect ! The criteria demands the car must have been serviced in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations. It was made a consumer law some years ago that manufacturers cannot demand Franchised Dealer servicing as this captivates that consumer into Dealer only servicing which means Dealers could raise the cost of said servicing if they wanted to..

4. Sorry but the car is still under the extended "Good will" warranty so why can the OP not claim on this if the car is found to suffering with the usual and very very common issues ?

Im not even going to go into the part where you say it could not be able to fail if the coolant and oil levels were fine.. Its to complex and irrelevant anyway..

If an engine fails big style IE It self destructs and the Dealer suspects it cause was down to the usual woes they can and will replace it ..

It is not a requirement that the vehicle be the possession of its first or original owner for both the standard OR extended warranty... Car could be in the 10th owners hands and still be covered ..

Of course we only have the OPs side of the story but this is not the first time this has happened and sadly I doubt it will be the last..

Our answers can only be based on what we are told here ?

My opinion by the way is worth exactly what you paid for it ...........

The fact still stands there has yet to be confirmed oil consumption issue in this case

1. The car was presented with faulty injectors, the failure of which can cause carbon build due to improper fuel combustion.

2. Injector failure is not listed on the warranty bulletin as one of the allowed failures. They are oil consumption, head gasket failure, P0400 EGR blockage/failure, P2002 Dpnr blockage/failure and P1386 5th injector blockage/failure. The only allowed replacement of injectors is during the replacement of a confirmed faulty engine and only when the injectors are out of specification.

3. The consumer law is called block exemption but it only covers the period of a manufacturers warranty it does not have any legal standing when it comes to a manufacturer choosing to apply goodwill.

4. As mentioned in # 2 injector failure is not covered by the extended warranty until the oil consumption is confirmed as excessive which to my knowledge it has not been.

Sales of goods act won't apply in his case as it is over 6 years since the purchase of the car. The law is as usual long winded and complex and I don't claim to be an expert I am merely offering assistance. To the best o my abilities.

[surfdood1969]

Well there is a lot of opinion on the injectors not being covered and then being covered, what have I got to loose in going for the jugular.

I have access to free legal advice regarding this so phone call in the morning to have the vehicle examined independently, time to dig out some experts. Too much ambiguity, my wife says its like having your first baby and everyone is trying to tell you how to do bring it up etc etc and everyone is right in their way at the same time so what I can only do is say thanks to all with your contributions and take parts from each of your posts and mix that with some legal and mechanical expertise and see where we go....

[CharlieFarlie]

All this talk of injectors is largely irrelevant.. Car was as far as I read presented at the dealer exhibiting faults that are VERY well known and VERY recognised as being culprits in the VERY common 2AD engine issue scenario..

The dealers Service Manager should have picked up on this in an instant.....

Why are we discussing sale of goods acts ? The car has an extended warranty and the Dealer and TGB should be more than aware of this...

Something at both Dealership level and TGB has gone very wrong indeed....

Question is who will hold up their hands and admit that this has gone so badly wrong ?

Injectors can and often are changed at the time of engine replacement so of course they have to be suspect..

[Devon Aygo]

All the talk of injectors is because they are what was diagnosed as being faulty in the first instance and upto know appear to be the cause of the current engine failure ( to be confirmed ) at no time has this car been diagnosed with one of the issues that are accepted as being covered by the warranty extension.

Basically:

If the the injectors fail and cause this damage then there is no warranty, which is possible.

However

If the fault was caused by excessive oil consumption and the injectors are faulty as a consequence then there is cover.

Again this vehicle has yet to have excessive oil consumption confirmed there is no warranty.

I really hope that oil consumption can be confirmed by looking back through history of top ups an mileages this way there would be cover.

[saggyknackersack]

injectors this injectors that blaa de blaa de blaa. Lets face it toyota know this engine is a piece of crap! Simon insist on a replacement engine. I tell you if I'd have known all this before I bought one I wouldn't have touched with a barge pole. A diesel engine with 57k on it and its knackered! Do me a favour! I had a nissan terrano some years back 170k miles on it and all it ever needed was servicing.

[CharlieFarlie]

Lee you are missing the point ?

I have never heard of an engine failure on a 2AD engine due to faulty injectors ! Have you ? If so please demonstrate ?

I have heard of many many engines being replaced due not only to oil consumption but head gasket failures as well. Many have been replaced just because the car has displayed fault codes !

First port of call with all 2AD engine queries must therefore surely be to investigate the Very very common things first ?

How on earth did the dealer miss this ? How on earth did TGB also miss this ?

Those two misses were why I made the flipant comment about whether this thread was a wind up ?

It a bit like taking a wee child to the doctors with a temperature and big red spots and the Doc looking up its arris for piles ?

All the pointers indicate the usual 2AD issues yet I repeat the Dealer service manager missed this and TGB denied there being a warranty in place ??

Claiming consumption by retrospective oil checks aint going to cut any mustard..

I will say this one last time as its just tail chasing now.. I would be onto see the Dealer principle and would be onto a senior TGB manager ASAP..

[Devon Aygo]

I have witnessed two cases of injector failure cracking and holing pistons an an AD engine, both cases where confirmed as injector failure, both cases where argued by the customer to the point where an independent engineer was involved and both cases the engineer agreed with Toyota.

Just pop over to the Hilux or land cruiser forum to see posts about failed engines due to injector failure causing cracked and holed pistons, Recalled by Toyota as a known issue. On the AD engine it is thankfully very rare.

We have all seen cases of engines being replaced but they are only after one of the criteria listed by Toyota have been met.

As a warranty administrator I have accepted a case where the customer could document via a non franchise dealer the oil consumption issue and would expect that if this can be shown here that the warranty extension could be used.

[Big Kev]

Good point well made as usual, Lee.....but to my simple brain, blatanly obviously somewhat flawed. Two (2) cases of injectors causing failure of pistons on a Rav. Begs the question......who the Friar Tuck diagnosed the injectors as causing the catastrophic failure....? A total sphinctus of a dealer who thinks nothing of quoting 10 hours diagnostic to identify a problem he knows is well documented, well warrantied. Then the replacements fail.

I am responsible for current designs of dangerous and UN goods packaging for materials STILL travelling on your holiday flights........ain't ya glad I got it right.....first time......? In other words, this franchisee got it wrong.....WOEFULLY.

[Devon Aygo]

Good point well made as usual, Lee.....but to my simple brain, blatanly obviously somewhat flawed. Two (2) cases of injectors causing failure of pistons on a Rav. Begs the question......who the Friar Tuck diagnosed the injectors as causing the catastrophic failure....? A total sphinctus of a dealer who thinks nothing of quoting 10 hours diagnostic to identify a problem he knows is well documented, well warrantied. Then the replacements fail.

I am responsible for current designs of dangerous and UN goods packaging for materials STILL travelling on your holiday flights........ain't ya glad I got it right.....first time......? In other words, this franchisee got it wrong.....WOEFULLY.

We are all surmising at this point, as far as I can tell no one has confirmed the cause of the current failure and until the cause is confirmed by either the dealer, an independent or another we are all guessing. It is possible that the failure was caused by excessive oil consumption, it is equally possible that it was caused by something else, none of us know.

I do feel assured that you are good at your job Big Kev, but none of us are perfect for instance your Packaging on a plane is safe but your packaging on a new Boeing with lithium ion batteries I may just have a twinge of nerves as I climb aboard. My point? All the checking and will in the world things still go wrong unexpectedly.

I truly hope the OP gets a fait outcome, no one likes these sort issues.

[Big Kev]

LOL.......but in finalment.....a lot of what I did 10 to 15 years ago is still very much in place, retested and working. Retirement rocks.....

[anchorman]

Just seen this after a busy day.

As I see it, the first dealer should have suspected something amiss when the injectors were US. Thaay have led to the vehicle running out of warranty. As it stands now, you cannot expect TGB to pick up the pieces - they did after all extend the warranty for such events.

And to the OP, while I have every sympathy, you are wasting your time if you think you can threaten the biggest VM in the world with bad publicity. They weather massive media storms every time they have to recall vehicles so you are the least of their worries.

To everyone else - I'm not quite sure what you expect. The cold hard truth is that this vehicle is out of even the extended warranty and why Toyota are expected to do more than any other manufacturer who would have turned their back after the standard warranty seems a bit unfair. We knew some would slip through the net and this one has been aided by yet another useless dealer.

[CharlieFarlie]

Sorry I thought this car was a 2007 ??? Blimey I must read properly !!!

In that case then yes the OP is up the proverbial creek !

Now where is the number for spec savers ???

[Big Kev]

.......could have been first registered Sept thru December 2006.....still within 7 years on Scottish calculators......?

[Hoovie]

Sorry I thought this car was a 2007 ??? Blimey I must read properly !!!

In that case then yes the OP is up the proverbial creek !

Now where is the number for spec savers ???

Not necessarily ....

Quote: "Hello I have a 2006 Rav4 XT4 2.2d-4d. All has been fine until Nov 2012. It has only 57K on clock. MPG has dropped and required the odd oil top up when the light came on. Performance was sluggish, we assumed a service was required. About 3 weeks later it started smoking on acceleration which got thicker over a short period of time. Took it to Toyota - Ron Brooks Mansfield who determined that it was the injectors. They initially advised trying a cleaner however this did not work and then in Dec 2012 one of the injector seals went"

A key thing to me is "odd top up when light comes on" ... The light only comes on when the oil is pretty low I think, so this does indicate a fair amount of oil usage. Thankfully I have not had a RAV with this engine, so not followed the issues avidly, but it does sound to me that the fault pattern is the same as those people who had engine swaps?

And problem first reported to Toyota Nov/Dec 2012, which would make the car UNDER 7 years at the time when the appropriate investigation would have taken place by a more competent garage. Once a fault potentially covered under warranty (goodwill or otherwise) is reported, the clock surely stops until that investigation is completed? (Be it car or anything else, a supplier cannot delay dealing with problem until a warranty has expired and then say "tough, too late")

[Tony Barnsley]

As I see it, the first dealer should have suspected something amiss when the injectors were US.

That was the first failure on my 2007 XTR, that led the dealer to 'investigate' the oil consumption issue . . . especially after finding 'The Black Sludge of Death' in the EGR valve, following recalibration of the two injectors out of spec. . . . . Long story short . . . With help from Don, Charley and RRG Macclesfield (Not the original Dealer) . . .replacement engine

[CharlieFarlie]

Well yes the car could still be under 7 years but if it isn't I would bet the OP will be stumped...

There was another case recently where a complaint had been registered but the OP of that thread found that Toyota stuck firmly to the warranty.. Can't remember who it was now as there are do many ..

Yes I firmly believe the fault lies with the dealer who apparently informed that there was no warranty in place when at the time there was.. Also TGB said the same ???

But making something stick now will be very hard indeed !!

All we can do is hope the car IS still in warranty or the next purchase may be 5 litres if unleaded and a box if Swan vestas .....

Again I apologise for not reading the date if the car.. There is another thread going and that car is a 2007. I confused the two cars ...

[Parts-King]

And problem first reported to Toyota Nov/Dec 2012, which would make the car UNDER 7 years at the time when the appropriate investigation would have taken place by a more competent garage. Once a fault potentially covered under warranty (goodwill or otherwise) is reported, the clock surely stops until that investigation is completed?

Sorry but you don't get 7 years and 1 day, 1 month or 1 year extra just because it has been reported, it needs sorting within the extended period, the clock does stop!

This does not help the OP and I'm sorry you have had this problem, I hope you can get a suitable outcome

Kingo

[Hoovie]

And problem first reported to Toyota Nov/Dec 2012, which would make the car UNDER 7 years at the time when the appropriate investigation would have taken place by a more competent garage. Once a fault potentially covered under warranty (goodwill or otherwise) is reported, the clock surely stops until that investigation is completed?

Sorry but you don't get 7 years and 1 day, 1 month or 1 year extra just because it has been reported, it needs sorting within the extended period, the clock does stop!

This does not help the OP and I'm sorry you have had this problem, I hope you can get a suitable outcome

Kingo

So if I reported a problem that the Toyota Dealer should fix under warranty INSIDE the warranty period, but they cannot fix it as, for example, parts are needed and they won't arrive until the warranty has expired, or say the service manager who would have to agree it is away on his hols, then it is MY Problem?

[Parts-King]

Not at all, if parts are on order, delayed or back ordered for example, then the dealer could stretch a day or two

What I am saying is you cannot report a problem, go away and at some point in the future go back and expect the problem fixing just because you mentioned it at some point in the past. That IS your problem

Kingo

[Hoovie]

Not at all, if parts are on order, delayed or back ordered for example, then the dealer could stretch a day or two

What I am saying is you cannot report a problem, go away and at some point in the future go back and expect the problem fixing just because you mentioned it at some point in the past. That IS your problem

Kingo

That is fair enough in general terms. So when the clip from the cover from the cabin air filter broke off on my RAV, and the Toyota Dealer wanted to take 2 days to strip out the entire dash to replace a 10p bit of plastic, I declined, but asked them to lodge it as a reported fault for the future :)

But if the Dealer incorrectly rejects a warranty claim for, for arguments sake, a faulty Battery, and was proved subsequently wrong to do so, and their actions in rejecting it means the car is not fixed using the agreed procedure and the owner had to buy a new Battery when they should not have had to do so, then they find out that that actually it WAS covered at the time of the problem, but is not now due to being too old ......

[Parts-King]

Blimey David.........talk about if whats and buts

You need to get your car fixed inside of warranty, and if it is difficult to get fixed, then make sure it does not drag on AFTER the warranty is about to expire. This might mean some firm conversations with your dealer..............getting anything fixed OUTSIDE the warranty period will be a lottery, you have very limited rights outside the warranty period, much better to make sure any problems are sorted INSIDE the warranty period

Kingo

[surfdood1969]

Hello all my car was under 7yrs when injectors failed but now is 3 months past its 7th Birthday. Toyota kindly phoned up saying that, well NO! They spoke with dealership allegedly who have now said the noise is coming from underneath the engine not on top as they said to me...trying to disconnect the injectors. I am moving the vehicle to another Toyota dealership to ensure impartiality. My beef is with the dealership now not TGB directly as they are evidently working on info given them by Dealership. TGB said if we can prove connection to failure and previous episode then they will reconsider. Engine needs stripping now as answer is in there...

[sonixtorm]

But if the Dealer incorrectly rejects a warranty claim for, for arguments sake, a faulty battery, and was proved subsequently wrong to do so, and their actions in rejecting it means the car is not fixed using the agreed procedure and the owner had to buy a new battery when they should not have had to do so, then they find out that that actually it WAS covered at the time of the problem, but is not now due to being too old ......

I think the other point worth bearing in mind is that the extended warranty is "good will". Essentially, Toyota determine the rules. I hope some evidence of a pre-existing carbon clogging issue can be found (is an alternate Toyota garage able to pick anything up from the computer system?) as the offer to reconsider suggests that TGB may be open to replacing the engine.

Terrible situation to be in :(

[CharlieFarlie]

Be careful stripping .... If the engine is stripped I'm fairly sure it cannot go to Japan.. It will therefore loose the rather large deposit the dealer has to pay on it..

In effect the dealer purchases the optifit engine and parts needed to complete the job then invoices l this plus their labour to Toyota.. They pay a large deposit and have to get the old unit shipped back within ten days.. If this criteria is not met the dealer I believe can be out of pocket.. Perhaps Kingo can add to this ??

Now we know that the vehicle is out if warranty Devon Aygos mention if the injectors maybe the cause could well be a way out as far as TGB are concerned but I do feel they will be very fair when looking at this. ..

[voyager t180]

And problem first reported to Toyota Nov/Dec 2012, which would make the car UNDER 7 years at the time when the appropriate investigation would have taken place by a more competent garage. Once a fault potentially covered under warranty (goodwill or otherwise) is reported, the clock surely stops until that investigation is completed?

Sorry but you don't get 7 years and 1 day, 1 month or 1 year extra just because it has been reported, it needs sorting within the extended period, the clock does stop!

This does not help the OP and I'm sorry you have had this problem, I hope you can get a suitable outcome

Kingo

With respect I don't agree with this argument.

If an engine fault has been reported and logged within the 7year period and then later causes engine failure,surely the original fault causing the failure has occurred within the 7yr period..

The waters get murky when an incorrect initial diagnosis,or uneccesary repair is involved.

Legally and morally the OP should be recompensed...IMO.

In reality though there it gets so complicated its difficult to prove who said what and when,which is when the 'goodwill'. Clause comes into play.

I should add I am in the engine 'danger zone'..It's 7.5 yrs old and to my knowledge hasn't been changed.

I don't as yet have the usual oil/coolant warning signs,but the EGR does seem to carbon up fairly quickly.

So I may have trouble brewing,time will tell.