Prius Performance On Hills?

[Opifex]

For help with the TLAs, I did start a Toyota Hybrid TLA thread. Should be findable with the forum search.

You'll find it here http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/151746-toyota-hybrids-common-abbreviations/. It's an excellent list that would be very useful as a sticky.

[Surv1v0r]

I know it's more the compound than the tread pattern, which was why I didn't think there was such a thing (I've not come across them anyway!)

I have been using LRR winter tyres on the gen3 prius for the last 3 winters. Easy to find in the 15 inch flavour (but not so in the 17

inch). Similar price to the summer tyres so not expensive. I even did a write up in this very forum.

Cyker mentions that he is not aware of low rolling resistance (LRR) winter tyres, you say that you have been using some for the past three winters - would you care to say what tyres they were and what they cost - or even better, to provide a link to your write-up?

On another front, I notice that Cyker mentions the stiffer side-walls on LRR tyres; I guess that this means that the tyres absorb fewer road shocks from our increasingly pot-holed and speed bumped roads. I don't get the impression that the Prius has particularly sophisticated suspension (think Citroën's brilliant hydropneumatic suspension); added to this, the higher spec cars have bigger, heavier (17") alloys with lower profile tyres. What is the Prius' ride like on Ralph McTell's "Streets of London"?

For some more real life info about long journeys and hill climbing. I have just returned from a break in Dartmoor (Devon). The gen3 Prius with 4 adults and a boot full of luggage managed the trip to Dartmoor, motorways, dual carriageways, and the A35 across Dorset (lovely hills) with no problems. I was able to accelerate up the hills, fly along the faster bits of road and still get 60mpg.

While on Dartmoor, the Prius was able to haul itself up the hills - even when the road was wet and muddy (we are talking those little roads with not much tarmac used by farmers, 4x4s and satnavs). The mpgs suffered a bit, but still a respectable 50mpg for the week.

I know such roads well; a Mohican line of grass in the middle, deep ruts either side bounded by massive, paint scratching hedges, cow manure everywhere and a tractor with trailer hutling towards you ;)

As to the TLAs, thanks for the list but I really would rather that people simply didn't use them, they do make posts harder to understand for as yet the unconverted.

[Surv1v0r]

Just noticed THIS:

Theoretically, if you were to drive up a large enough mountain, the Prius would run out of battery power and, relying on the engine alone, would crawl along to the summit, for the same reasons. I don't think there's many places in the world where this is possible mind!

[Opifex]

Just noticed THIS:

Theoretically, if you were to drive up a large enough mountain, the Prius would run out of battery power and, relying on the engine alone, would crawl along to the summit, for the same reasons. I don't think there's many places in the world where this is possible mind!

The key word here is "theoretically", and the theory has a flaw in it. If the Battery needs charging the power coming from the engine is increased so that it can power the wheels and charge the Battery at the same time. Hence the Battery never runs out of power.

[timberwolf]

A round and a round we go, reminds me of another poster.

I'd imagine if you drive a Hybrid like a Top Gear presenter you could probably get the HV Battery down to one bar, and even if they didn't they could always fake it like they did with the Tesla.

[Cyker]

The effect of the stiffness will be worse on lower profile tyres than on higher profile tyres but the ride must be pretty hard on 17's anyway so maybe you can't tell! :)

TBH I'm increasingly skeptical of the more expensive LRR tyres - You can get the same effect by upping the PSI on a normal tyre and still have better traction than an LRR, at least that's what I've found with the Continental PC2's and PC5's (Really nice tyres for a Yaris; Fantastic wet-weather grip! :D)

I'm sure 15" rims with normal tyres gives a bigger mpg boost than 17" rims with LRRs... (Be a !Removed! lot cheaper too! )

[Surv1v0r]

The key word here is "theoretically", and the theory has a flaw in it. If the battery needs charging the power coming from the engine is increased so that it can power the wheels and charge the battery at the same time. Hence the battery never runs out of power.

Fair comment. However, it does tend to suggest that I am not the first person to have wondered about the Prius' ability on long gradients. A dealer to whom I spoke wasn't entirely convincing over this issue although that may just have been that he didn't have an answer. As ever, he emphasised what a great city car the Prius is.

Does anyone know of anywhere that hires out the Prius on a daily basis? Europcar seem to have given up on it.

[timberwolf]

When I was thinking about a Prius I did a lot of research because I'd reckoned most of the question I could think of had already been asked and probably quite a few that I had not thought of. Sadly, your question about mountain driving was really easy to find - the first hit on google with four search terms http://priuschat.com/threads/mountain-driving.91226/

I say sadly because it shapes my opinion that you are probably a troll and not worth wasting my free time on. If my predication is true instead of taking the criticism like a man youll react upset and make up some rubbish of why you could not simply do the search yourself another typical troll response.

[Cyker]

Okay, that was just uncalled for. He has been nothing but polite, certainly more polite than a lot of you have been.

The HSDs are not cheap cars and will have a certain unknown factor to them since they are not like normal cars so of course people are going to want to seek assurances.

It can be annoying I know, but he is not the first by a long shot and nor will he be the last person to have genuine concerns about the HSD in heavy load situations, any more than we're likely to stop seeing people posting about EGRs and DPFs and DMFs in our sections.

I'm afraid that's just the way the web is. :(

I know I tend to miss stuff myself as I tend to just log in, hit Latest Posts and read on. When I want to search the site, I find I have to use the google "site:toyotaownersclub.com actual search query" trick as the search box here seems to act up (Which is bizarre since it also now uses google to

search the site! )

What we need here is strategic deployment of tea and crumpets! Crumpets I say!!! Maybe a pie... Mmmm, pie. :D

[Cyker]

Does anyone know of anywhere that hires out the Prius on a daily basis? Europcar seem to have given up on it.

Have you tried getting Toyota to lend you one? My local one wouldn't lend me a Yaris HSD (or a GT86 for that matter ) as I clearly had no intention of actually buying one , but as you are I'd imagine they'd be much more likely to lend you one. ;)

I seem to recall a few people here getting them for extended test drives (Up to a week IIRC?) a while back, but don't know if that's still the case.

[Surv1v0r]

When I was thinking about a Prius I did a lot of research because I'd reckoned most of the question I could think of had already been asked and probably quite a few that I had not thought of.

That is kinda the reason I posted my query on a Toyota Owner's Forum, as a result of which I have received some helpful responses. However, thanks for the link, if I ever end up driving a Prius in Colorado I will feel marginally better informed and will remember to put it into 'B mode', open all the windows and turn the A/C up to max when going downhill ;)

I will see where I get with a somewhat longer term test drive of a Prius through my local main dealer although I have my doubts that I will get to take it to the Alps - perhaps I can try driving it up Snowdon, I'm sure someone has tried that sort of thing before.

At this point, in the interests of not pouring petrol on a hot Battery, I will drop out.

As ever, many thanks to the people who give so generously and helpfully of their free time, that is what makes t'Internet so great - especially to Cyker who has been consistently patient and helpful.

[timberwolf]

Okay, that was just uncalled for. He has been nothing but polite, certainly more polite than a lot of you have been.

<snip>

I have a habit of checking a posters past history when they post out of the ordinary or bizarre questions and who also have low post counts, I wasn't surprised to see that the poster had asked a very similar question before - it is also why I choose not to contribute an answer early on in this thread.

[Surv1v0r]

[Toyota’s Auris'] heavy batteries make it feel a little ponderous in the corners and its CVT gearbox means tackling hills is a noisy business.

Despite Toyota’s claims of 70.6mpg for the hybrid on the optional 17in wheels, it managed only 47mpg in our hands during the test, and drivers interested in its load-lugging capacity would be better off choosing a petrol or diesel variant.

(LINK)

I don't know how the Auris compares / relates to the Prius but I suspect that what applies to the former probably applies to the latter :(

[Chris Fisher]

I'm not sure I would pay too much attention to a reviewer who gets 47mpg from a hybrid, that is worse than I get from my 1.33 petrol Auris.

[Glyyde]

Driving the Prius+ which is heavier and bigger than Auris tourer with the same engine, I am getting 50MPG driving 3.5miles to work and back with a few steep hills in between. Not sure how they only managed 47MPG on a lighter car......

[kithmo]

Mud grabber tyres sound about right for the short amount of time we need winter tyres. I fitted some to the rear of my old Mk3 Cortina back in the 70s and put a sack of spuds in the boot when we had snow, job's a gud un.

Re: modern Diesels, most of the problems mentioned are minimised if you buy a torque converter Automatic. There is no DMF and the EGR and DPF get more suitable use do to the revving nature of the torque converter auto box.

AFAIK the Prius has an EGR too doesn't it ?

[Joseph D]

AFAIK the Prius has an EGR too doesn't it ?

It does indeed. It is incorporated into the front pipe.

[Aceshigh84]

I thought most modern petrol cars had the egr system. My Accord from 2001 had one, and my Civic before that, and that was produced from 1996.

[Cyker]

I never understood that; In diesel EGRs are used to lower combustion temperature to lower NOx production (At the expense of EVERYTHING ELSE) but petrols burn at much lower temps and don't produce much NOx so what the heck does the EGR do on a petrol engine!?

@kithmo - You are right, but sadly, torque converter autoboxes are getting rarer and rarer :( It sucks as IMHO they are superior to almost every other autobox except for the loss of mpg, and even tho' that's mostly been solved by full-range locking torque converters as seen in the GT86 and LFA, many mfgs still seem to be looking at the much more inferior CVT and semi-auto type autoboxes :(

.

[PeteB]

Yeah, I'd not read much into that Economist article as it has quite a lot of factual errors which make me think the author has done very little research. Urea injection!? I think maybe one manufacturer used that as an experiment and nixed it pretty quickly.

It's like ford and their special super-expensive oil that was used to regenerate DPFs, but nobody ever changed which would eventually cause the DPF to fail, so they stopped doing that.

The normal compression ratio for diesels was 20:1, which has dropped for some of the newer lighter engines. Toyota were one of the first I know of to do that, with 17.5:1 in their first 1.4D4D (Which AFAIK has one of the largest rev ranges of diesel engines even now!)

One of the reasons that the HSD has a large (And slightly rabid :P) following here is that they tend to be a lot more reliable than modern diesel engines; Old diesel engines are virtually indestructible, but modern ones are a lot more fragile and temperamental due to all the emissions control junk they bolt on.

For your use-case, that shouldn't be an issue; The biggest problems are caused when the car is used extensively in the city and/or for short journeys - This leads to things like the injectors, EGR and DPF crudding up which is why I take my ickle Yaris out for a nice run now and then and occasionally dump some V-Power through it (Even then I still need to clean out the EGR system now and then; Thankfully mine was made before euro-regs made DPFs mandatory!)

<snip>

That said, if you're going to do lots of long-distance driving and up hills, a diesel-powered estate of some sort may be a better fit as they love that kind of work :)

<snip>

That is pretty much the conclusion I had come to which is why I am considering the Octavia despite being hugely impressed with the Prius.

I have just been told that a recent report in the Economist magazine found that 19 of the top 20 most fuel efficient cars were "clean diesels". The VW Polo was the best at 3.8 litres/100km - the Prius with 4.2 litres/100km came 20th - LINK.

OK, so after 11 years and ¼million miles in Hybrids, I may be a bit biased, but, when I have to drive other cars I really hate them and can't wait to get back in my Prius.

My old Mk 1 Prius that I used for two motoring holidays in Scotland never missed a beat when going up 5 mile long 1 in 5 (20%) mountain roads and the cruise control settled it to run on petrol only, so the HV Battery was still ¾ full at the top. If anything, it would be better if it could have been ¼ full, because going down the other side the Battery became completely full (first time I'd even seen this) and (also for the first time) I found it helpful to use B Mode (extra engine braking) after the HV Battery maxed out.

On long motorway trips at 70 mph the battery tends to stay about ¾ full, so it's always ready for a traffic jam or city, whilst having space to receive 'free' electricity when going downhill or braking.

Diesels may seem much more refined from inside the car these days, but I frequently park on the sea front so my 96 year old mother can see the sea for a while. It's usually very relaxing listening to the gentle sound of the waves until some burk in a diesel parks nearby and decides to leave the engine running (sadly, unlike London, there isn't a team of enforcement officers fining people £100 a time for failing to switch off their engine whilst parked). I'm often forced to shut the windows or move to another parking space to get away from the infernal clatter (even from expensive Mercs and BMs).

The other, often forgotten thing about running a Hybrid is low running costs - despite being expensive to buy my last Mk1 Prius was only worth £500 when I sold it due to being 9 years old with 163k on the clock, but because it was cheaper to service than a Yaris and I'd only had one set of new brakes at 100k, taken with fuel costs (I logged every penny on a database in my pocket PC - sad, I know, but I'm a geek) it turned out to be the cheapest car to own I've ever had (even without some savings on London Congestion charge).

Regards, PeteB

[Cyker]

Having been taken for a few runs in my mate's Auris HSD recently, I've noticed the ICE tends to take up the base-line load at higher speeds so the MG2 doesn't have to do as much work and is ready to kick in for bursts of acceleration. I knew it did that on e.g. the motorway but didn't realise it did it up hills too - Is quite clever as it keeps the car punchy if you want to accelerate, but will hurt the mpg a bit. I wonder how steep a hill it will push the car up on the ICE alone??

To drain the Battery to give it regen space on the down side, I think you'd have to try and pulse'n'glide up said hill (Although that can be tricky to master in a safe way uphill!) to try and trick it into using the MG2 more?

It's a pity you can't override the system to bias it more to the ICE or the MG2 for those kind of situations! Like e.g. a button on the wheel you can hold down to force it to use the MG2 more or something? (Could label it Turbo Boost like those old racing simulator arcade machines )

[Parts-King]

Here we are on page 8 still blethering on about how an HSD goes uphill

I have NEVER known a customer EVER have a problem go uphill, this is another "what oil do I use in my Hybrid" that will wander on forever and is meaningless FFS! sorry but it is getting right on my breasticles!! Ive driven plenty HSD and Ive NEVER had a problem, and thats around North Wales where we have one or two hills

Kingo

[Cyker]

Relaaaaax! We're past the hills! Now we're just discussing the intricacies of the HSD system and how it works in various scenarios! Hills are just a by the by part of the topic now :D

But the Turbo button, that is genius, you should send that up to head office!

[sanzomat]

_{One thing I noticed whilst driving around the pembrokeshire coastline with 6 adults on board is that my HV Battery quickly became full as on the steep up hills the ICE was racing (and whilst the electrickery may have been assisting the ICE it seemed to be making at least as much as it was using as the SOC didn't drop) and on the steep down hills the regen brakes were pumping loads of juice into the Battery so far from running out of charge I was always full as there were few flat bits to chug along in EV to use it up. I actually found myself running out of room to put the electricity and having to use friction brakes more than I'd like. Its a shame there isn't the opposite of B to force it to use more electricity on the "ups" to make more room for the "downs". I'm guessing it will naturally hang on to it's charge on steep ups as it won't know how long they will go on for but if the driver can see the summit you could manually overide this.}

[tuboludo]

After having great fun reading all these HSD comments I am gonna get me a Toyota Corolla Sedan Hybrid >>>> Because I love smooth cruising, baby <<<< And oh, yeah, have already been testing a few Corolla Hybrids in town and a little bit on the highway, but now I will sleep with my mind at ease knowing climbing hills won't be a problem either - not that I ever thought it would be - and what goes up, must come down - in fact I always thought mountain driving would rather increase MPG