Late Gen2 Or Early Gen3?

[ALake]

I'm condsidering swapping my rav4 for a prius (milage and traffic jams have increased recently!) and my budget would be around the £9-9.5k mark.

For that money I've seen (at dealers) some late Gen2 (2009) and early Gen3 (59) - the difference being the gen2's at that price have lower mileage than the Gen3's

Now, apart from the fact I prefer the look of the the Gen3's, is there a much advantage to going for the later model, or in owners opinions is the Gen2 a better bet?

[timberwolf]

You really need to test drive both models.

For me the original manufacturers warranty was important so I still place a lot of importance on that.

Gen 2: 8 year/100K miles Hybrid warranty (includes all Hybrid components mechanical and electronic), 3 year ordinary warranty will have expired (included petrol engine, MFD (Multi-Function Display i.e. central dash colour display)). Combining summer and winter motoring for calculation purposes approximately 50 mpg. Motorway performance vs mpg achieved lower than Gen 3. Proven reliability, over-engineered Hybrid mechanical components.

Gen 3: 3 year/60K miles Hybrid warranty probably expired (did not include all Hybrid components), 3 year ordinary warranty probably expired. MPG at motorway speeds improved over Gen 2. Hybrid components reduced in weight, reliability has yet to be proven. Prudent mpg for calculation purposes 50-55 mpg??

[cootuk]

I think the general consensus is avoid the early GenIII that only had the short warranty and go for the more heavily overengineered GenII.

[wass]

I was thinking of part exchanging our gen 2 for an early gen 3 and thought again after the driving experience. That was nearly 2 years ago... our gen 2 is still with us having depreciated by about £1000 and the early gen 3s are out there having depreciated by slightly more. I'm still not tempted. I work in Northampton and have noticed that the gen 2 is very popular with the taxi drivers there. I asked one of them what the attraction of the gen 2 is and they like the reputation for reliability,the robust performance of the upholstery and in common with the gen 3 they also mentioned the cars ability to look good having covered 1/4 million miles or more and its reluctance to sustain "tin worm" damage.

[ALake]

It does seem like a good late gen2 is going to be a more reliable option, especially as I'm new to the hybrid game and don't want any complications!

Next stage is to get the dealers to offer me more than a derisory amount for my car in exchange!

[timberwolf]

The better Hybrid warranty doesn't necessarily mean the car will be more reliable overall.

Of the non-Hybrid components on the Gen 2, the belt driven coolant pump for the petrol engine is suspect. Also there have been brake discs replacements and wheel bearings. For the brakes, it is impossible for us to know whether some dealers are ripping off customers, or whether it is a genuine failure but due to prior lack of maintenance during servicing such as cleaning the pins on the floating callipers, or poor choice of materials at manufacture e.g. hardness of the metal. The 12V Battery is also prone to failure (all generations) especially if the car has had infrequent usage (i.e. not daily) or by accident/carelessness by an owner or dealer (e.g. doors/hatch left open).

As the owner of a Gen 2, I'm more interested in what might go wrong with my model than on the Gen 3 (e.g. T3 steering rack), so I'll leave it up to Gen 3 owners to point out their good and bad points.

[johalareewi]

Although early gen3s had a short hybrid warranty compared to the gen2, I got the official Toyota extended warranty when my 3 years were up. That also covers all the hybrid parts and HV Battery with unlimited mileage (cost £700 for 2 years). So if warranty is an issue, buying from Mr T you will get 1 year Toyota warranty which will cover the hybrid parts and HV Battery (you can double check the warranty T&Cs) and you will be able to extend that until the car is 10 years old (unless Mr T changes things).

[ALake]

Based on my experience with my rav4 I'd rather not rely on the warranty as its probably not worth the paper its written on!

I'd rather go for the one with the decent reputation based on actual owners experiences. if I start spending £00's on extended warranties then I'd be better off getting an Astra diesel and using an independent garage for repairs.

[Dancing Badger]

I asked this same question here in August. I had the choice of a Gen 2 T Spirit or a Gen 3 T3, similar age, mileage and price. Obviously I haven't had the car long enough to report on reliability, as you would hope, it's been fine, I can talk about how I decided which one to buy.

I received quite a lot of good advice here, it's worth searching out the thread to read it. The advantages of the Gen 3 were said to be better driving dynamics (not something which is necessarily easy to tell on an hour's test drive), better fuel economy and a slightly quieter and more refined drive on the motorway (I think the bigger engine doesn't rev quite as high).

The negatives were said to be reliability, and I weighed this quite carefully. One argument is the one you have seen here, the early Gen 3s had a shorter hybrid warranty (the normal warranty would have expired in either case) and this is seen as a bit sinister by some, as it was later extended back to the original length but this was not retrospectively applied to the early Gen 3s. There seems to be a feeling that Toyota knew that the new model was not as robust, and then presumably made it more robust again. I'm not personally convinced by this, especially as it doesn't seem to apply to all markets, particularly in the States which is a far bigger market than ours. The counter argument is that we got a slightly downgraded product here, which they later upgraded again - it just doesn't seem likely to me, but you may feel otherwise. I can believe that there was a quality problem which was later addressed, I just think it's unlikely that Toyota would have done that on purpose and then only in one of their smaller markets, the concept is too Machiavellian.

However, you should read Grumpy Cabbie's thread entitled Gen 3 HV Battery Failures in Taxis further down this page, where he reports on the serious problems he's had in his Gen 3, including early signs of traction Battery failure, as well as links to Prius Chat where users are reporting problems with Gen 3 taxis in Greece. It's worth noting that there seems to be a particular problem in Greece, which isn't reflected in the experiences of taxi drivers and maintainers in the States who don't seem to have the same problems.

However, in my considerations I took into account that internet forum users are a a self-selecting group who are more likely to post about problems than not and that this gives a very pessimistic view. I am also aware from experience that taxis lead a much harder life than even very high mileage private cars. And maybe Grumpy Cabbie was unlucky - I don't read many similar reports from UK Prius owners. On the other hand, maybe he found out first because his car led a hard life and other Gen 3s may see problems further down the line. There are no guarantees.

In favour of the Gen 3 is the Which? report on the most reliable cars of 2013 which I have in front of me as I type this. This is probably a more representative sample of users who are selected only because they read Which? They place the Gen 3 as the most reliable large car over 3 years old, on a sample size of 84. The annual average repair cost is reported as £14, average annual days off the road is 0.17. The Gen 2 comes in 5th, with a sample size of 273. Annual average repair cost is reported as £57, average days off the road 0.23. In fairness, the Gen 2s are older, the sample presumably including cars up to 9 years old.

Interestingly for large cars up to three years old the Prius comes in 5th, behind the Honda Insight, Lexus IS, Skoda Superb and Volvo S60. This is the one with the longer warranty, I think, and has a larger sample of 243. Average repair cost is £15, average days off the road is 0.31 which is still pretty respectable. It seems to me that any model of Toyota Prius is likely to be one of the most reliable cars on the road.

So, in the light of all that, which car did I choose? I bought the Gen 3. I can't tell you how I'll feel about it in 3 years but right now I love it.

[ALake]

Great post, thanks. I'll search out those other posts as well.

Fuel economy is probably going to be negligible between the two, what concerns me more is reliability, comfort and ease of ownership.

I'm still veering towards a late gen2, but the gen3 is not out of the running yet!

Is it true than the gen2 don't come with heated door mirrors? That seems to pop up in reviews quite often

[PeteB]

Great post, thanks. I'll search out those other posts as well.

Fuel economy is probably going to be negligible between the two, what concerns me more is reliability, comfort and ease of ownership.

I'm still veering towards a late gen2, but the gen3 is not out of the running yet!

Is it true than the gen2 don't come with heated door mirrors? That seems to pop up in reviews quite often

I've driven almost 170,000 miles in Gen 1 Prius, over 50k in Gen 2 and over 20k in Gen 3 (not to mention some Honda and Lexus Hybrids, and the Yaris and Auris Hybrids). I've owned 2 Gen 1s and one Gen 3 (all ex-demonstrators) - the other have been company or loaned cars.

I found the seats and suspension most comfortable in the Gen 1, 2nd best Gen 3 with 15" wheels, and the Gen 2 had the firmest seats and suspension, but still a comfortable car. The T4/Spirits on 17" wheels seem harsher and nosier, but that may not apply if the tyres have been changed for different makes/versions.

I got exactly the same fuel consumption in the Gen 2 as the Gen 1, but since the Gen 1 was a smaller 4 door saloon that's still an achievement. The Gen 2 was a bit more powerful than the first, so to get better consumption you needed to drive it using a smaller proportion of its available power.

My 2012 Gen 3 T3 is generally getting at least 15% better mpg (calculated between fill-ups) than either of the previous 2 versions.

You're right - the Gen 2 didn't have heated mirrors (nor did Gen 1) [but they DID in some countries (e.g. Portugal), where they were hardly needed!] - a real shock after having them since mid 1980s! It doesn't seem to bother people whose car lives in a garage and who only go out in the middle of the day, but mine used to fog up awkwardly on the M1 at 6 in the morning when moving into an area of colder air.

My T3 has electric folding mirrors too, but I can't remember if the original 2009-2010 Gen 3 had this. Unlike the windows which stay active for 30 sec or so after turning the car off (or until a door is opened), the mirrors die immediately, so I often (still) find myself powering back up to fold the mirrors in - shame they aren't linked to the central locking like a cheap Fiesta, but I hardly like to complain because the top of the range 2011 Yaris I had last year didn't have them at all.

The taxi firm I used to work for have around 300 Gen 3s, and they've had no particular problems with batteries or anything else, although when the cars are replaced it's rare for them to have covered more than 120k. Contrary to many predictions, the seat fabric does seem to stand up well to a hard life.

As others have said, if you can drive both Gen 2 and 3, you can decide what's important to you, and of course, some people prefer firmer seats/suspension.

Personally, I love driving all Toyota Hybrids (and Hondas for hat matter), although I found the almost total absence of oddments space in the Yaris Hybrid about the worst in any car I've ever driven, plus the rear seats are now short of headroom - in complete contrast to previous Yaris models that were top of the class for both.

Prius wise, I prefer almost everything about the Gen 3 to the Gen 2, especially since the 2012 face lift which brought in Day-Time Running lights and optional built in SatNav for the T3. Toyota leave the cruise control switch off the T3, but my helpful dealer fitted it for just over £100, so I've got the better ride (IMHO) of 15" wheels (not to mention new tyres costing some £35-£40 less that the 17" ones!) and all the equipment I really wanted. I love the Heads-Up display (more than I expected), rear view camera, and being able to juggle the two Multifunction Displays according to what information is most relevant to a given situation.

As an aside, when I went to a prelaunch event about 6 months before the Gen 3 was launched, they had a pristine Gen 1 Prius on display and I asked if I could buy it - seemed I was at least the 100th person who'd asked!

The only thing I really dislike about the Gen 3 is the 'bridge' centre console - great for easy access to top switches (but a pain if you heave switches below [like heated seat switches], the space is hard to reach), but if someone parked so I can't get in the drivers' door, I've got no chance of climbing in from the passenger side (maybe if I was younger, fitter and a lot less fat!).

Hope some of that rambling helps, regards, PeteB

[ALake]

Loads of good info there, brilliant stuff.

It think it will depend on what deal I'm offered for my rav, so far the offers have been crap considering this is supposed to be the best time to sell a 4x4!

Gen3 is tempting purely based on I much prefer the look of it, shallow I know!