Aygo Mmt Problems With Starting And Acceleration When Brake Depressed

[civic95]

I am new here and in desperation for some ideas on our Aygo. 2008 model Blue, MMT. We have had the wierd starting problem as posted here before by:

aygo_girl

June 12, 2013, 5:59 pm

and a very scary experience tonight which is really wierd and bizarre. I will explain in a moment.

In family I own 1995 Civic, daughter 98 Micra, 1975 VW camper and I have driven many vehicles.aquired the vehicle in 2012 from mother in law, with 18,000 miles on clock. Now has 30,000 miles on clock. Problem is exactly as Aygo Girl and the others posted on this forum. Vehicle does not start when brake depressed, brakes seem jammed and solid. No tickover, no starter. But you can here a electronic clicking sound from the selector area of gearbox. No light on selector unit. Left it about an hour and it seems to reset itself and starts first !Removed! time. Last time it happened last week and I made my way home by train, left overnight and it started in the morning no problem first time.

Next wierd thing is this: driving along at approx 45mph, In (E) normal gear change OK. Had been in E all the journey. Approached a junction with a pickup truck in front of me. I slowed by taking foot off accelerator, then depressed brake to stop. Next thing the car accelerates and increases speed with my foot depressing the brake. I stopped the car with handbrake. I nearly hit the pickup in front. I was not driving to fast and the car seemed to have a mind of its own. Now I have driven manual/autos all makes and models since 1984 and I have never experienced anything like this and not only dangerous but seriously shaken. My foot was def on the brake, nothing near accelerator, no mats caught. The car was recalled in 2010 and had rectification by Toyota dealer. My feet are fit and healthy and I know what my feet were doing. Summary: Car accelerated away while foot depressed on brake for an instant. car raced away. Once stopped it didn't happen again and normal drive home. We have also suffered MMT struggling to decide which gear to be in and lagging when accelerating. I am baffled and want rid of the car. My Civic has never let me down once in 12 years. It is now 18 years old and looks 3.

[rajivrattna]

This sounds almost similar to the incidents in USA with automatic gear Toyota cars. The company changed the electronic accelerator in these cars (including Aygo). It was good that you had the presence of mind to pull the hand brake, thus saving yourself. I would take that car to a Toyota dealer and complain. Toyota is good at listening to their customers (as per my experience). If the garage gives you hassle, write to the Toyota head office in your country and that certainly gets things going. They can connect a OBD reader and it may show what happened/error code. Don't delay.

We have an MMT Aygo from 2008 without any problem besides the slight hesitation at round abouts.

[civic95]

thanks for that, another thing to add, I am not sure whether the gears changed up on their own in E to increase the speed or if it was accelerator in a depressed position with no foot on it. I was more concerned with stopping in that split second.

[rajivrattna]

If the gear change was faulty then there should be a error code when reading from the OBD port (dealer has a reader).

[civic95]

Visited Toyota Dealer today, sounds like

A) Gear selector sensor knackered for non starting supposedly.

B) Never heard of the brake/accelerate problem before

Booked in for OBD/Diagnostics.

All in all it could be an expensive nightmare.

Ironically this Toyota is more unreliable than my 1975 VW camper or 1995 Honda Civic Coupe with 130,000 miles on the clock.

The more I read up on the MMT gearbox, the more I think it has to go.

Thanks for replies will keep everyone posted. Especially on the acceleration under braking issue (That is dangerous)

[rajivrattna]

Perhaps you need to show this to your Toyota dealer about the recall for accelerator change on MMT models. From Wikipedia.

"In January 2010, the Aygo was part of a worldwide recall
by Toyota for a faulty sticking accelerator pedal. It was found that
under some circumstances, the pedal could stick in a partially depressed
position, or return slowly to the off position. The recall affected the
Aygo, Peugeot 107 and Citroën C1 models built between February 2005 and
August 2009.^[4]
Information from Toyota later suggested, however, that only Aygos with
automatic gearboxes were affected, and that those with manual gearboxes
were not.^[5]"

Here is the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Aygo

In our Aygo MMT from 2008 it was changed for free under the recall.

[rajivrattna]

Here is another news of that problem from 2010.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7157755/Toyota-recall-latest.html

From the horse's mouth,

http://www.toyota-europe.com/about/news_and_events/recall-statement.tmex

[rajivrattna]

let us know, how it goes at the toyota dealer.

[civic95]

STARTING ISSUES.

Thought I would update you guys on here, Main Toyota dealer did OBD DTC diagnostics and found error codes P0909/P0919 = These are batched together 1) Select actuator or its circuit. 2) Shift/stroke sensor or its circuit. 3) Shift actuator or its circuit. 4) Select/stroke sensor or its circuit. Its a wild guess which one even for the professionals and they have quoted £1250 just for the Gear shift select actuator to be replaced on its own. BIG BUCKS ££££££££££££££. I've done my research and found out the codes etc. Anyone else got any answers?????

RUNAWAY ACCELERATOR ISSUES.

Toyota are investigating this one, main dealer didn't have a clue. The dealer checked the recalled parts on the accelerator pedal block etc that had been replaced at recall and they were OK. My main concern is if it happens again! Just to recap: when foot totally removed from accelerator and then placed on brake the Aygo accelerated just like an old car (Cortina) etc with jammed accelerator cable, not just revs but actually moving forward faster! i managed to stop the Aygo with the handbrake and the revving stopped as the car skidded to a halt inches from the stationary car in front. Anyone got any ideas. With no disrespect to the elderly I was not depressing the accelerator pedal with big paddle feet at the same time. I am young(ish) fit, driven for 30 years with no disability or duck paddle feet. Anyone got any ideas as this could be quite serious if it happens to anyone else who wouldn't think to use handbrake to halt the car!!!!!! Thanks all.

[rajivrattna]

If the dealer gives you any problem with regard to fault diagnosis or even cost of repair, I would consult the Toyota head office in UK and that often gets the ball rolling. Since this is a very serious fault (safety issue) you have a ground to fight for your case. I am sure the Toyota head office would take care of most of the expenses if you got in touch with them. This has been my experience even when the fault was not safety related.

As to your next question on how safe is it to drive that car (after repairs etc), I personally would not worry too much. We have an Aygo MMT and have been very pleased with it. There are many Aygo and its cousins on our road and very few have had the kind of problem you describe.

[civic95]

Thanks for your replies on this. At the moment the jammed acceleration issue/under braking is in the hands of Toyota Customer Service Team. I'm not holding my breath though. Even with only 30,000 miles on the clock they have said basically: car out of warranty for the Error code actuator/gearbox issue. The acceleration/braking issue they have said will be investigated (is it/could it be related to the actuator??????) who knows. Toyota always were good cars,

Bring back the reliability and build of the Celica (all models), Corona, Corolla, Century, Crown, Legacy, Carina, 1600, Paseo, Hilux, MR2, 2000GT, Supra, Landcruiser. All !Removed! good cars. Hopefully GT86 will live up to the standard of old GOOD TOYOTA's God only knows what they have done with this MMT nightmare!!! Understand all the posts relating to PSA Group. The last good Citroen was the BX, and the last good Peugeot was the 205!!!!!!!! All I hear from French car owners now (including Renault) is an absolute nightmare, I did know it was a joint venture, but how the hell can they get it so wrong with the Aygo MMT build quality beats me.

[FROSTYBALLS]

"This sounds almost similar to the incidents in USA with automatic gear Toyota cars. The company changed the electronic accelerator in these cars (including Aygo)."

This isn't correct.

There was thought to be three possible causes of the 'unintended acceleration' incidents - the electronic throttle control system, the driver's carpet mats moving forwards and affecting the operation of the pedals, and play in the one type of accelerator pedal assembly.

The 'unintended acceleration' incidents in the US were investigated by the NHSTA, and the investigation concentrated on the electronic throttle control Despite the length and thoroughness of the investigation and the involvement of NASA, no fault was found with the electronic throttle control system. As the Aygo is a Europe only vehicle, it wasn't involved in this investigation.

A recall was also undertaken in the US regarding the driver's carpet mat, which, it was thought could move forwards and affect the operation of the pedals.

A worldwide recall was undertaken on one of two types of accelerator pedal assembly used by Toyota in a variety of models. The accelerator pedal assembly made by the Japanese company Denso wasn't affected. With the second type of accelerator assembly made by a division of GM, it was found that play could develop in the pedal mechanism - and it was this assembly that was subject to the recall. The fix in the majority of cases took approx 40 minutes, and involved the installation of a shim to take up any play. Some Aygo/Peugeot 107/Citroen C1 models were involved in this recall.

The NHSTA investigation finally concluded that, in the majority of cases, the incidents were driver error.

Going back to the topic in question. One thought - has the dealer checked whether your Aygo was affected by accelerator pedal recall, and if it was, has the recall been carried out on your car???

[civic95]

Thanks for this, I can assure readers that it is not the mats!!! these are always in place (black plastic pin holder) and in good condition - hardly worn. The interesting thing is the Actuator problem makes the brake rock hard and unable to depress when starting and failing to enable gears. I can only describe what has happened to me and with 30 years on the road, petrolhead, into cars (my wifes car!!! not mine) I would not buy one of these myself!!!!! and I believe that there is an issue here. Brakes are OK and passed MoT recently. The recall was done on the car (shim fitted) 2010 and I am fully aware of the issues in the States with Lexus etc. I am not a compo-seeker. Just want answers and a safe car to drive without hair raising moments in a daily commute, with a feeling of no control over the !Removed! cars internal brain. This was as though accelerator failed to release back into higher position/return back, to reduce revs, fuel was definitely pumping as car re-accelerated when braking and foot definitely released from accelerator pedal in totality!!!!

[civic95]

Other interesting fact is: Accelerator/braking/runaway acceleration has only happened once and it occured after the starting/braking gear select actuator problem occured. This has happened 7 times now and after the 4th occurence the runaway acceleration happened.

Other interesting fact is the last two times car has started but unable to enable the gears - go into E or + - where previously car would't start at all and ignition just clicked. The other point to note is that after leaving the car locked and ignition key removed for 15 minutes (I have timed it!!!) the car then starts first time when depressing the brake and turning the key!!!! The symptoms change again!!!

[civic95]

And what many people are unaware is that all modern cars have no accelerator cable and it is just down to the computer reading your input data to accelerate and slow down. Personally I believe there is an issue between electronic fly-by wire technology and the way the data is interpreted by the EMS. I don't know where but wish I knew. Out of all the cars I have owned over the years I actually do not feel safe with this one and am waiting for the next surprise to materialise.

[civic95]

OK, keeping folks posted, after discussion with several Toyota experts, went back to the Main dealer. They agreed last weekend to reset the MMT gearbox back to default factory setting using the diagnostics DTC and clearing the fault codes.

Gearbox seems OK now and had 1 full week with no starting/gear engage issues, although not convinced it will not reoccur £1250, £997 or £900 quotes for a new Gear shift select actuator which apparently Toyota recommend replacing with those error codes. 3 actuators on MMT, presumably £3k to replace all 3 actuators!!!!!!!!?????????????? more than the cars worth!!

I used to do my own work on cars but this is !Removed! complex engineering and just to change gear!!!!

Brake versus accelerator still a mystery, they checked brakes, accelerator shim replacement. it hasn't happened since when I first posted the incident. But I am still wary of it re-occurring. It is logged with Toyota and they are puzzled.

MMT gearbox see attached fileThe Toyota Multi-Mode transmission - design and function _ Professional Moto.pdf

[rajivrattna]

Thank you for returning and giving us feed back. It helps other people in future and elevates knowledge and interest in this forum. I hate when people come here seeking advice but never return to say if it worked or not!

[Worried son in law]

Hello Richard. I hope you are still a member.

Last Thursday my father in law experienced the same "runaway acceleration " as yourself.  Unfortunately he is now in hospital with a crushed vertebra as the Aygo mounted a raised traffic island before coming to rest.

He is certain that he had his foot on the brake, but the car just got faster! Were you on a slope when this happened to you?

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

35 minutes ago, Worried son in law said:

Hello Richard. I hope you are still a member.

Civic95 (Richard) last visited the Club in January 2014, so a reply is doubtful.