Hot Starting Issue. ....again.

[rambler]

Just broke down, with same issues as I had last may. Re fuelled after turning off my engine. Tried re starting my engine and it cranked ok but just wouldn't fire up so had to call out the AA , chap reckons its the positive lead from Battery to starter motor thats resisting current.

Given that the starter motor and was replaced in may this year and a top of range Yuassa Battery was fitted at same time.

[dwilson]

There have been a few posts on here recently about issues with that lead (I think) so you could have a look through the posts or if not someone will be able to help soon.

All the best,

David

[dwilson]

There have been a few posts on here recently about issues with that lead (I think) so you could have a look through the posts or if not someone will be able to help soon.

All the best,

David

For instance the topic

2007 4.3 Issues

and post 6 from "The Fox"

David

[voyager t180]

Did the engine fire up eventually? You didn't tell us.

Bearing in mind you've replaced the Battery and starter motor,my guess would be the problem might be fuel related.

As Don always advises try changing the fuel filter first.

[rambler]

Did the engine fire up eventually? You didn't tell us.

Bearing in mind you've replaced the battery and starter motor,my guess would be the problem might be fuel related.

As Don always advises try changing the fuel filter first.

Hi Paul, no......after two attempts ( cranking the engine for about 10 seconds each time and about one minute between each attempt) it just wouldn't fire up. Lucky the new Battery has plenty of life in it to try this.

So I sat in the filling station waiting for the AA for about 45 mins ,during this time the engine cooled sufficiently and when AA man arrived, as usual it fired up relatively easily ( I knew it would).

I did show him a recording I made on my smart phone of what happened just to prove I wasn't mad, so he checked for resistance on the neg of the Battery,but he couldn't check the positive to the starter motor? as he reckoned it was too inaccessable.

My biggest problem is although i'm a ' hands on ' type of chap, I just daren't touch under my bonnet. its way too complex for me.

Used to do points, plugs years ago ,I even replaced a propshaft on my old mk2 escort .....but vehicles these days are way too complex.

I made the roof bar for my roof lights, ran the wiring under the carpets etc etc , I thoroughly enjoy working with tools and making & building things.............

[LeeADAB]

Hi Jamie,

Would yours have an in tank strainer/filter on the fuel pump? Although mine is petrol I seem to have solved my cold start issues by changing that and the fuel pressure regulator part of the pump unit. Not an expensive job but if that's never been changed might be worth a shot. Mine was black at 80k when they removed it.

May not be of help.....Lee

[rambler]

Hi Jamie,

Would yours have an in tank strainer/filter on the fuel pump? Although mine is petrol I seem to have solved my cold start issues by changing that and the fuel pressure regulator part of the pump unit. Not an expensive job but if that's never been changed might be worth a shot. Mine was black at 80k when they removed it.

May not be of help.....Lee

Hi Lee, thanks for the info.

That may well be looked next Monday, as I complained very strongly to the Toyota dealership I took it to last time. I actually complained directly via email to the dealership principal & he has reassured me all the issues that remain will be taken care of.

I will mention what you say anyway, the suggestion is there, they can only look and see what they find, i'm baffled myself as in my thoughts ,if it fires from cold then fuel is there, it drives with no issues at all, the starter motor turns the engine over with no troubles wether its ' at temperature ' or cold.

So the starter motor and new Battery have the power to crank the engine for ages 10 to 20 seconds sometimes, it starts from cold within 2 to 3 cranks everytime, and has done for years...no problem.

Its only when 'at temperature ' on a hot start that i can crank it for 10 to 20 seconds and slowly, but wont fire, or is very reluctant to fire. I try pumping the accelerate.....doesn't help.

So the starter is always able to crank the engine, just a lot slower when the engine is ' at temp '.

Once its cooled for 30 mins or so, its cranks normally again and starts like from cold.

Sorry to go through the above again......just putting into words what happens.

[LeeADAB]

Hope they fix it for you once and for all. I just found this which may also agree with my pressure regulator theory.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Hard_starting_diesel_engine_when_engine_is_hot

If they open the tank to check the filter condition might be worth a shot at changing those two parts.

Good luck.

[gjnorthall]

Scanning through this topic - the thing that really stands out is the comment that the starter cranks a lot slower when the engine is up to temperature. The length of cranking is also a concern, 20 seconds is excessive and you'd easily be able to fry an egg on the casing after this length of cranking. This sort of heat may well cause the starter to bind thus reducing it's speed.

It might be worth getting the starter speed and current draw checked with the engine hot and cold to establish whats going on. This is usually done quite easily with a clamp type ammeter connected to a logger. Essentially you get a waveform that peaks each time a piston reaches TDC so the speed is calculated from the number of peaks in a given time period. The waveform will also show if the cranking speed is reducing over the period of cranking and of course the hot and cold waveforms can be compared.

You mention that the starter motor was replaced - was the same hot / cold speed phenomena experienced with the old motor? Was the motor overhauled / reconditioned or replaced with a new / exchange unit?

[Raistlin]

A friend told me that you should disconnect the engine temp sensor and see if that allows it to start when hot.

His starts up quickly when cold but when it gets up to the correct operating temps it takes 5 + seconds before it starts up, but when you unplug the ETS it starts up right away...

[rambler]

Yes , the new starter made no difference at all , exactly the same symptoms. Ill mention that ETS to toyota ......They can try it.

[gjnorthall]

It's everyones choice of course, but main dealers are rarely the people to tackle nutty issues. In the first place their hourly rate is frightening and the vast majority of their work is servicing and basic maintenance. Anyone can plug in a diagnostic scanner but the skill is interpreting the results and fault following to get to the root cause - an area they don't excel. For electrical problems go to an auto-electrician and for diesel problems - go to a diesel specialist. Infact these two services are often combined and most large towns will have an elecro-diesel outfit dealing in passenger and commercial vehicles. Since they're specialists, hopefully they'll have a better knowledge base and will have equipment that your average main dealer certainly won't have.

[Tech01]

Good advice above - most diesel specialists have a vast array of diagnostic equipment (programmable to be vehicle-specific), and make their living out of diagnosing diesel problems fast. You then have the option of asking them to rectify the fault, of just giving you their diagnosis. They're also not usually interested in selling you lots of unnecessary bits, just in moving on to the next vehicle!

Chris

[rambler]

Point taken , and thank you folks.

Bearing in mind I've already paid the dealership to sort this for me once back in may.

They may even be giving it to a specialist to sort anyway on their behalf. We have two in Colchester , Colchester fuel injection & M & C diesels.

[rambler]

Point taken , and thank you folks.

Bearing in mind I've already paid the dealership to sort this for me once back in may.

They may even be giving it to a specialist to sort anyway on their behalf. We have two in Colchester , Colchester fuel injection & M & C diesels.

[firemac]

Point taken , and thank you folks.

Bearing in mind I've already paid the dealership to sort this for me once back in may.

They may even be giving it to a specialist to sort anyway on their behalf. We have two in Colchester , Colchester fuel injection & M & C diesels.

Jamie, is it worth checking out the warranty situation re the May work? I assume it was done by a Toyota dealer?

[rambler]

Hi , yes it is being done on g/tee. Completely f o c . I've been reassured of this by their head of business.

[firemac]

Hi , yes it is being done on g/tee. Completely f o c . I've been reassured of this by their head of business.

At least that should minimise further costs - doesn't make up for all the buggeration however.

[rambler]

To be perfectly honest , the person in their service dept was very apologetic when he booked my Rav in.

I think he had been given quite specific instructions as to what to offer me.

He was however very courteous , polite and wanted to ensure I was kept happy.

Very good service from their team as ever.

[Big Kev]

They are scared of ye Jamie......they know you've got a snake belt in karaoke, mate......

[firemac]

To be perfectly honest , the person in their service dept was very apologetic when he booked my Rav in.

I think he had been given quite specific instructions as to what to offer me.

He was however very courteous , polite and wanted to ensure I was kept happy.

Very good service from their team as ever.

That's reassuring, Jamie. Let's hope their techies are successful.

[rambler]

Well.....an update.

This morning ( day off work in lieu of working Saturday ),I drove the Rav4 up to Colchester Toyota, good A road run for 30 or so mins, pulled into the dealership, let the engine & turbo calm down then turned it off.

Walked into the service reception, I was greeted very pleasantly as usual.

We had a chat about the issue for a few minutes with their head technician, he accepted I was not happy and said it needs sorting.

So we walked over to my Rav , it had sat there parked for about 5 to 10 mins, I dreaded the next bit.

I jumped in , put key in ignition , dipped the clutch , turned the key , waited for the glow to go out , waited couple more seconds , and ......

CRANKED...........THAT.............ENGINE !!!

Right in front of his eyes, it cranked and cranked for about 10 seconds , but it WOULD'NT fire up, not even a hint of firing......cranking yes, but nothing more.

At that point we just left it alone, in that state....

I was in jubilation I had just proved I wasn't nutty.

Then they gave me a f o c courtesy car......for as long as required.

They said they would push the Rav into their workshop, and not try to re start it, so as to diagnose it.

So have got a 53 reg Corolla petrol just to get me about for the time being.

When i'm called to collect it in time to come, I will insist it trying it again, I will only accept it starting from hot as it was before this whole unfortunate episode started back in April this year.

See what happens..............

[Raistlin]

I hope all goes well and you get the resolution you deserve...

[rambler]

Ok folks.....here we go.

As above, took Rav in to get it fixed Monday am

Received a phone call yesterday about 4pm, to say the fault had been found........

It was diagnosed as the starter motor !.

Which is really really strange ,as that is what they found to be worn out and replaced back in may this year.

So during this phone call they said it would be approx. £300 plus fitting......

I very very swiftly pointed out that it was the same diagnosis back in may !!!,and they had already replaced it and made no difference.

So again, I accepted their point and let them get on with replacing my new starter motor with another one, on g/tee F O C

So I collected the Rav after work this evening in the dark, drove home, 30 mins on A roads at good speeds.

Pulled into the driveway, let the turbo / engine calm down for a minute or so, then turned it off.

Went indoors to get changed from work gear, have a cuppa and waited 5 to 10 mins........

Then outside I went again,armed with my camera phone and tried starting the Rav with camera recording............and.

Turned the key , the engine cranked quickly , easily , smoothly ,and sounded right !! , and fired up within 2 to 3 cranks, to be honest it hasn't sounded that good for months.

I tried it once more , within another minute or so, and just as good.

So far so good.

Apparently their technician will ring me tomorrow to explain just what he had to do ( besides replacing a new starter motor),to get it to behave as it should.

I will monitor it for the forseable future though........just in case.

I sincerely hope it is solved, for the good of my sanity, their engineers reputation and to save me emailing any more complaints to their Head of Business, who appears to be able to ' get things sorted ' when ' The Sh*t hits the fan !! '.

Yahoooo

[gjnorthall]

The devil is in the detail - so the explanation by the garage will be interesting. So the starter was replaced a few months ago and made no difference - it then needed changing again - why I wonder? - and something else was done to get the motor to behave.