Additions To Hybrid Range

[RunningInPleasePass]

Some time ago I read Toyota was going to produce a hybrid in all segments, do you think Toyota is missing a trick by not producing more hybrid models?

My suggestion would be the next Avensis should be offered as a hybrid, with the same power unit as the latest Lexus 300h, but with front wheel drive, if it was not a ridiculous price I'm sure it would be a popular car, I would be interested for my next car?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

They need to sell them more on lower emissions too, or at least make more of that than they do at present.

You could run 20 hybrids and produce the same NOx pollution as ONE brand new latest clean diesel. This increases to 200 hybrids for the emissions of a Euro 4 diesel from 2008.

They touched on this on The One Show last night. As more people become concerned about air quality in their cities or have children or family with asthma, they may start to realise that by choosing a diesel, they're part of a problem.

The next hybrid option should be the new Avensis or maybe even the Australian built Camry Hybrid in RHD form? Just imported into the UK/Ireland only. Failing that, what about an Estima hybrid that you get in Japan, Australia and Cyprus? The Prius+ isn't really a 7 seater and is too expensive for what it actually is.

I think also as more people realise that the benefits of driving a hybrid outweight perceived negatives, that more people will start to consider them more.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The next hybrid option should be the new Avensis or maybe even the Australian built Camry Hybrid in RHD form?

The real problem with Australian built cars is the high cost of building them there. Hence GM and Ford withdrawing from manufacturing in Australia and Toyota considering it.

[Nozuka]

That's what they said in August 2013:

"The Japanese company noted that between now and the end of 2015, it will introduce 15 new or redesigned hybrid vehicles globally."

Lexus is included in this number.

[RunningInPleasePass]

Lexus are fully committed to hybrids, I don't think they produce a diesel model now.

The IS 300h is a lovely car, and the GS 300h is even better, both, unfortunately are out of my league.

I hope Toyota will expand their hybrid range to include at least one saloon, I think I would prefer that to a hatchback next time.

[Heidfirst]

recent UK research has shown that lower benefit in kind has more influence on company car user choice than mpg/emissions.

The traditional D sector market in the UK has all but collapsed - last year Vauxhall sold under 20,000 Insignias in the UK (Toyota probably sold about 6,000 Avensis) down from over 100,000 a few years ago. Meanwhile in 2013 in the UK Nissan sold 50,000 Quashgais!

[FROSTYBALLS]

In the UK the strongest market sector has been the B-sector (Fiesta/Corsa) for quite a while with the C-sector (Focus/Astra) lying in second place.

In the D-sector, the BMW 3-series is still comfortably outselling the Mondeo, Insignia, and Passat individually - in fact outstripping the Mondeo and Passat combined.

[PeteB]

Lexus are fully committed to hybrids, I don't think they produce a diesel model now....

Indeed, the CT, GS and RX are only available as Hybrids now.

[PeteB]

That's what they said in August 2013:

"The Japanese company noted that between now and the end of 2015, it will introduce 15 new or redesigned hybrid vehicles globally."

Lexus is included in this number.

They've slipped since 2003 - when some of us from the Yahoo Prius-UK Group were invited to a preview of the "2004 Prius" (Gen 2) the guys from Toyota thought every model would have a Hybrid version within 10 years.

One thing they also seem to miss from the diesel market is a long range - my Gen 3 Prius can still manage just over 500 miles on a tankful in the summer, but doesn't often reach that this time of year - my Gen 1 could easily do nearly 600 most times. The Yaris Hybrid has a smaller tank than even the standard model, so a usable range of low 300s is likely. Some diesel cars are advertised with a range of 800 or even 1,000 miles - I'd love that.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

recent UK research has shown that lower benefit in kind has more influence on company car user choice than mpg/emissions.

The traditional D sector market in the UK has all but collapsed - last year Vauxhall sold under 20,000 Insignias in the UK (Toyota probably sold about 6,000 Avensis) down from over 100,000 a few years ago. Meanwhile in 2013 in the UK Nissan sold 50,000 Quashgais!

D sectors are still important. The new Ford Mondeo will have a hybrid option, and Peugeot already have one. Toyotas Avensis is a cracking car (if a little dully styled) and can still compete against the big ones.

Regarding D sector sales collapsing. It's more complicated since more companies now allow you to choose your car to a monthly budget. Gone are the days of being allocated a choice of a Rover, a Ford or a Vauxhall and the manager got the GL and the supervisor got the L. There's much more choice from many more manufacturers and frankly people choose what they like the look of, not what they're allocated.

[RunningInPleasePass]

Good point Pete, the range of a hybrid is too low, since I swapped my diesel for a hybrid I have to visit the petrol pumps more often, perhaps a larger tank?

[Nozuka]

Sadly a smaller tank is a great way for Toyota to safe some money, weight and space on hybrid models. I dont think they'll increase it in size.

[Duffryn]

Why can't we have the 2014 Toyota Sai here, eh Mr.Toyota? Makes the Avensis look as exciting as a dishcloth.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Lexus HS250h, Toyota Sai and Toyota Avensis are all related - sharing the same floorpan, wheelbase, etc - and date back to 2009.

In the short term don't know whether Toyota may facelift the Avensis in the same way as the Sai until a replacement comes out using the new modular platform.

[Whitewagon]

They need to sell them more on lower emissions too, or at least make more of that than they do at present.

You could run 20 hybrids and produce the same NOx pollution as ONE brand new latest clean diesel. This increases to 200 hybrids for the emissions of a Euro 4 diesel from 2008.

Very interesting Grumpy. Do yo have a quotable source for this information please?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

They need to sell them more on lower emissions too, or at least make more of that than they do at present.

You could run 20 hybrids and produce the same NOx pollution as ONE brand new latest clean diesel. This increases to 200 hybrids for the emissions of a Euro 4 diesel from 2008.

Very interesting Grumpy. Do yo have a quotable source for this information please?

Toyotas brochures for a start. For older cars there was some government website that gives emission levels for NOx for all cars sold since around 2003, though when I did the report it was back in 2010 and I can't be bothered to look it up now.

See page 22/30 on the Auris online brochure for the specs, it'll show the NOx below;

Auris 1.33 petrol NOx 12.7 mg

Auris 1.6 petrol NOx 7.3

Auris 1.4 diesel NOx 112.7 mg (that is not a mistype)

Auris 1.8 HSD NOx 5.7 mg

That's just the figures from the brand new latest shape Auris. Imagine what they were like a few years ago. If you're lucky to find the figures from some of the French manufacturers you'll be shocked too.

I did a report for York council a few years back because having asthma I am concerned about the almost unreported effects of NOx and the problems it caused. I quoted the figures (with sources) and sent it to their environmental department. They checked and double checked it and 2 years later they've introduced incentives for hybrids to be used as taxi's in their city. York has failed EU pollution levels due to the small congested streets. The figures add up though. If you have 20 Prii as cabs doing 30,000 miles a year each, you have cut back significant pollution. I don't know how many cabs are in York, but it will be thousands. In small Harrogate we have over 500 taxis, so if all those were hybrid or even petrol, the pollution levels would be significantly lower. Introduce that around the UK and you could have significantly better air.

http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/6273/York-introduces-green-taxi-incentive

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10500035.Greener_taxis_for_York___s_streets/

So just goes to show. Some grumpy cabbie with a breathing issue has helped improve the air quaility of a beautiful city. Did I get anything from the local Toyota dealer for all these potential extra sales and servicing? Erm, no.

[Nozuka]

European emission standards max allowed threshold:

NOx Diesel:

Euro3(2001): 500mg

Euro4(2006): 250mg

Euro5(2011): 180mg

Euro6(2015): 80mg

[Grumpy Cabbie]

European emission standards max allowed threshold:

NOx Diesel:

Euro3(2001): 500mg

Euro4(2006): 250mg

Euro5(2011): 180mg

Euro6(2015): 80mg

So the next emission levels about to come in and to apply for around 5 years will still be significantly higher than the 5.7 mg of the Prius/Auris HSD.

Criminal in my mind. The technology is there to reduce diesel to the same levels are petrol. This has been a requirement in the USA where their levels are lower than ours for petrol, let alone diesels.

Pollution is the invisible killer. Nobody cares, figures or mg/km seem insignificant, but times it by hundreds of thousands of cars in a city in any given day and it adds up. Everyone now knows someone who has asthma, but 30 years ago it was unheard of. Cars have got cleaner, petrol cars significantly so, but diesels are still stinkers.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Off topic but see this article in the Daily Mail re pollution in Beijing - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540955/Beijing-clouded-smog-way-sunrise-watch-giant-commercial-screens-Tiananmen-Square.html

[kithmo]

Sadly a smaller tank is a great way for Toyota to safe some money, weight and space on hybrid models. I dont think they'll increase it in size.

It also decreases the weight you carry around though, less load = more mpg.

Not huge amounts, I know, but 45 Ltr of petrol weighs around 32Kg.

[Whitewagon]

Thanks Grumpy & Co some interesting reading. It spurred me into some more digging and I came up with the below site. There are tables on there that cover all new type approved cars in the UK giving emissions and fuel figures etc.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/index.asp

The NOx figures for diesels, even under Euro 6, is still far too high even compared to petrol engined cars let alone hybrids.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

It amazes me still that some magazines quotes diesels as a 'green' choice.

Sure they generally get higher mpg's than a petrol, but green they are most certainly not.

Well, actually they can be, but the technology is kept to the top end models or those sold in the USA. It's so obvious that the latest Euro6 limits are done to help the French and German diesel car industry, than to protect the health of European citizens.

I wonder if petrol cars could get economy higher and nearer to diesels if they were allowed to slacken emissions to the same level?

But anyhow, glad a few extra folk have seen the light. If your kids have asthma you wouldn't keep cats, so why would you drive a diesel car? You're killing them. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.