How Many Auris Hybrids Have The 12 Volt Flat Battery Problem?

[Whitewagon]

It is not that it is so hard for Toyota to understand, it is probably because Toyota don't monitor these forums, and thus have seen none of these topics and posts.

In the time I've been a TOC member I have never seen Toyota GB make a post against any topic raised on these forums.

If you want Toyota to take notice, see my suggestion at post 18.

They never respond but they DO read forums, at least the PriusChat forum and possibly this one.

O

Well if they do read the posts then they should take note because until this issue has gone away I won't be buying an Auris Hybrid, which is what I had been considering, and I can't be the only one who researches forums before deciding what to buy.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Another comment from PC's Mr Wong about the 12v issues. I guess he's getting exacerbated that people are not trying to investigate further to see exactly what is going wrong, and thus obtain a solution;

Dear Auris owners:

To help confirm or refute these assertions, it would really help if
someone (or several of you) would actually measure voltage and current
so that you can start to establish what is typical Auris behavior.

1) quiescent resting current when the car is IG-OFF, all doors closed
and locked, Smart fob far away (more than 15 feet.) This requires
disconnecting the 12V Battery negative cable and inserting an ammeter in
series. Yes, you guys can actually do this without causing harm to the
car.

2) Voltage across 12V Battery when car is IG-OFF and has rested
overnight (this will show approximate state-of-charge, 12.9V represents
100% charge of AGM Battery, 11.9V represents approx. 0% charge.)

3) Voltage across 12V battery when car is READY (this will directly
address the assertion above regarding how well the DC/DC converter is
maintaining voltage on the 12V bus, and therefore, applying charge to
the 12V battery)

4) Voltage across 12V battery when car is IG-ON and headlights on (the
difference between the voltage measurements at 2 and 4 is is an
indicator of the battery's capacity, the bigger the difference the
weaker the battery is becoming)

This discussion is becoming like people debating how many teeth a horse
has, while no one bothers to actually go out, open a horse's mouth, and
count. After a while, don't you think it is silly to swap opinions
without basing them on some facts??

Right now, the only facts which appears well-established are that 1)
numerous Auris owners have complained about no-start issues which appear
tied to the 12V battery, 2) they are not too happy with the service
response of their dealers and 3) the Auris battery has 35 Ah capacity
vs. 2G/3G Prius and Lexus CT200h at 45 Ah capacity.

We haven't made much progress beyond that.

It would be nice if Toyota Europe would step up to the issue and resolve
it for the owners. Until it does so, my suggestion is that it might
help Auris owners to learn about the technical characteristics of the
car so that you can figure out whether the problem is something you have
to live with as long as you own the car, or if there are any actions
you can take to mitigate the issue.

You don't know what the Auris design specs are regarding quiescent
current draw, but we at least can compare your measurements to Prius,
whose behavior is well-known and understood here.

Or else, resign yourself to buying a portable jumpstart device,
frequently using it, and continue to complain about the 12V battery
needing frequent changes...

[Whitewagon]

Mr Wong is absolutely correct in his diagnosis of user related examination of the problem. However not everyone has the equipment or is confidently capable of running the checks. Furthermore this is not something I would expect to have to undertake with a new car or one that is still under warranty.

What cannot be established seemingly is how prevalent this problem is, does it just relate to the few posters on this forum or is it a major issue with UK specification models? Only Toyota and it's dealers can answer that question.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Mr Wong is absolutely correct in his diagnosis of user related examination of the problem. However not everyone has the equipment or is confidently capable of running the checks. Furthermore this is not something I would expect to have to undertake with a new car or one that is still under warranty.

What cannot be established seemingly is how prevalent this problem is, does it just relate to the few posters on this forum or is it a major issue with UK specification models? Only Toyota and it's dealers can answer that question.

He was trying to help as owners had hit a wall in that dealers were not helping.

I tried to help. He tried to help. But people are almost treating this attempted assistance as if we're responsible for the problem. The tools are cheap and out there. Either give it a go if you feel you're capable OR continue contacting Toyota and wait for them to eventually pull their finger out.

I don't have an Auris, so despite trying to help, I now will leave the affected owners to it.

Crickey guys. I was trying to help.

[Cyker]

Well, the 12V Battery can still be pretty dangerous and not everyone is confident with jabbing multimeter probes around the inside of a car

The problem is, the sort of person who likes tinkering with cars is generally not the same person who would buy a HSD since there is nothing in there for them to tinker with...

[RunningInPleasePass]

Thanks for all your help with this problem, I will certainly try to do all the test Patrick has suggested, the only problem is my car is at the dealers being tested, when I get it back I'll have a try.

I've contacted the MD of Toyota UK, and have been contacted by one of Toyota Customer Relations people, they want to keep my car for a while to try and sort this problem out, so I'll keep you posted on any progress.

The guy who contacted me seemed to be very well informed about this problem so I asked him a few questions, from memory, this is what I found out from him.

This issue he assures me is only effecting a small number of cars.

They have looked at the Battery and feel confident that they have sized it correctly, the reason he gave for the Auris Battery being small is that the electronics are newer and designed to take less current.

They have logged the cars voltages etc. over a prolonged time to make sure that the problem was not happening after a prolonged run.

The suggestion that it is caused by owners keeping keys too near the car is a fallacy, the systems are designed to cope with such situations.

If all the above is true, which of course I don't know, then it would suggest the problem is rogue cars rather then a fundamental problem with all of them.

As I say Toyota have my car now, and I don't know how long they will keep it for, but they are due to speak to me again on Wednesday to give me an update, so I'll keep you posted.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Edited the above post slightly - as not everyone has a red (rouge) car.

[RunningInPleasePass]

As far as I'm aware Toyota doesn't monitor these forums - so don't be surprised if the message doesn't get across.

It would probably be better to make Toyota GB (responsible for sales and marketing within the UK), Toyota Europe (the corporate organisation for Europe) and Toyota Motor Manufacturing UK (responsible for the European manufacturing of the Auris and Avensis) aware in writing simultaneously of the issue(s) and Mr Wong's response to the topic on Priuschat.

Contact details:

https://www.toyota.co.uk/contactus

http://www.toyota.eu/contact/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.toyotauk.com/other-information/contact-us.html

I have emailed the above, still awaiting a response.

I have also contacted Toyota UK's MD, got a very prompt response from his representative, see above.

[RunningInPleasePass]

Edited the above post slightly - as not everyone has a red (rouge) car.

Thanks, I'm afraid spelling was never my strong point.

[PeteB]

Edited the above post slightly - as not everyone has a red (rouge) car.

Thanks, I'm afraid spelling was never my strong point.

rouge face?

[Whitewagon]

Grumpy, was not having a go at you I'm sure we are all grateful for the reporting and digging around you have done.

Thanks also to Kevin et al who have also highlighted the problem and reported their findings.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Well done Kevin - hopefully looks like you may have had a result.

Thanks for all your help with this problem, I will certainly try to do all the test Patrick has suggested, the only problem is my car is at the dealers being tested, when I get it back I'll have a try.

I've contacted the MD of Toyota UK, and have been contacted by one of Toyota Customer Relations people, they want to keep my car for a while to try and sort this problem out, so I'll keep you posted on any progress.

The guy who contacted me seemed to be very well informed about this problem so I asked him a few questions, from memory, this is what I found out from him.

This issue he assures me is only effecting a small number of cars.

They have looked at the battery and feel confident that they have sized it correctly, the reason he gave for the Auris battery being small is that the electronics are newer and designed to take less current.

They have logged the cars voltages etc. over a prolonged time to make sure that the problem was not happening after a prolonged run.

The suggestion that it is caused by owners keeping keys too near the car is a fallacy, the systems are designed to cope with such situations.

If all the above is true, which of course I don't know, then it would suggest the problem is rogue cars rather then a fundamental problem with all of them.

As I say Toyota have my car now, and I don't know how long they will keep it for, but they are due to speak to me again on Wednesday to give me an update, so I'll keep you posted.

[Nozuka]

2 guys from germany with the Battery drain problem are now getting their hazard light button replaced, which is supposed to fix the problem.

they didnt know about each other, so i guess the info seems to come from toyota.

i'll keep you updated if it fixes the problem. (sounds too good and random to be true..)

[RunningInPleasePass]

For information.

On the official Toyota Auris Blog I asked the question:

Have Toyota got any nearer sorting out the problem of the 12 volt Battery going flat for the Auris Excel Hybrid yet?

It has effected me twice, and on some forums, one owner is on their third Battery.

It’s very hard to get an handle on the number of owners effected but UK forums have about 8 cases and European ones about 35.

The reply:

Hi there and thanks for your post.
We obviously are aware of this issue and work is still ongoing regarding the resolution with our European office. Regrettably we do not have a timeframe at this stage but we are aware of the disappointment and inconvenience this is causing so we do resolve this matter as quickly as we can.

[Johnhh]

Hi, car was new Jan 2013, so just coming up 1 year old. Had flat Battery syndrome on Jan 6 and again on Jan 20, service was booked for 29th but brought forward to 21st, did Battery check and all reported OK. I will check the interior lights tip, but was wondering if it could be the Stop/Start system? Last saturday did about 20 mile in daylight around Reading, then a trip of about 2 mile in dark, not used Sunday, Monday Battery "flat", won`t unlock or anything, Green Flag will be getting fed up soon! As soon as batterypack connected its fine, which leads me to think the battery itself is OK, but the other circuits are at fault - Security system not recognising key,- not switching off, or something. Otherwise we love the car, and get around 45 in town.

John

[Joseph D]

Hi, car was new Jan 2013, so just coming up 1 year old. Had flat battery syndrome on Jan 6 and again on Jan 20, service was booked for 29th but brought forward to 21st, did battery check and all reported OK. I will check the interior lights tip, but was wondering if it could be the Stop/Start system? Last saturday did about 20 mile in daylight around Reading, then a trip of about 2 mile in dark, not used Sunday, Monday battery "flat", won`t unlock or anything, Green Flag will be getting fed up soon! As soon as batterypack connected its fine, which leads me to think the battery itself is OK, but the other circuits are at fault - Security system not recognising key,- not switching off, or something. Otherwise we love the car, and get around 45 in town.

John

It is almost certain that it is your Battery and not the circuitry. It seems that the "testing" procedures at garages are circumspect from what I have read about peoples experiences getting their Battery tested.

I would push them to check the voltage (in ACC mode) after resting for 8-12 hours (12.5 - 13.1 v) followed by a load test in IG-ON mode (20 amp draw for a continuous 30-40 secs) and observe the voltage whilst doing this. (Discontinue if the voltage drops below 11.2 v.) If the voltage is not able to hold 11.9 - 12.3 v then it is time for a new Battery. You should be able to get a decent load by putting the lights on full beam, windscreen demister and rear window heater on all at the same time.

As your car is only ~1 year old, this should be replaced under warranty.

HTH

[Johnhh]

Hi Joseph,

just been out and tried your ideas using my Draper digital multimeter, got a reading of 11.92 with no load and with lights on, demister and rear screen down to 10.8! Time to phone Mr T, well Jemca anyway

John

[RunningInPleasePass]

Hi, car was new Jan 2013, so just coming up 1 year old. Had flat battery syndrome on Jan 6 and again on Jan 20, service was booked for 29th but brought forward to 21st, did battery check and all reported OK. I will check the interior lights tip, but was wondering if it could be the Stop/Start system? Last saturday did about 20 mile in daylight around Reading, then a trip of about 2 mile in dark, not used Sunday, Monday battery "flat", won`t unlock or anything, Green Flag will be getting fed up soon! As soon as batterypack connected its fine, which leads me to think the battery itself is OK, but the other circuits are at fault - Security system not recognising key,- not switching off, or something. Otherwise we love the car, and get around 45 in town.

John

Hello John,

Welcome to the club, it's a shame this Battery problem is effecting owners of what otherwise is a nice car.

For what it's worth my thinking now on this problem is, it's a combination of things that come together for certain owners depending on their driving habits, I could swap my car, which has had this problem twice, with an owner that has not experienced the problem, and I would still eventually have a flat Battery.

If you think about it, for Toyota, testing my faulty car against specification would be very simple, and it probably tests okay.

What they can't do is test a car for every driving eventuality:

One driver may drive many miles a week, but those miles may consists of just a long journey with lights on and in ECO mode.

Another may still drive many miles, but those miles are lots of small journeys in daylight and in NORMAL driving mode.

The car has to be able to cope with all driving habits.

My suggestion to stop this problem is:

Fit a 45Ah or larger Battery, to provide a larger buffer.

Increase the battery charge rate, to accommodate a larger battery.

Look at the software to see if driving in ECO mode effects the battery charging, better a slightly lower MPG then a flat battery.

Fit lower power consuming equipment to the car, LED bulbs come to mind, to help mitigate power drain.

Investigate what happens when the key is near the car, to see if it has to happen at all, i.e. outside mirrors opening, and if it doe's have to happen, for how long.

I'm sure that Toyota have thought of these things, and many more, but it would involve a lot of expense, and an accountant would say for the numbers effected it is not worth doing.

I live in hope of a solution, but my confidence of it happening soon is not high.

[Nozuka]

The smaller Battery is a dream come true if you look at it from a financial point of you.

They always try to loose weight on cars and this is one of the few ways they could actually save money and weight at the same time.

It's around 3kg weight loss, when going from 45Ah to 34Ah, which is alot.

And most likely around 30% cheaper too.

If you look at it that way, it's not hard to see why they took the risk.

Sadly their reputation will probably pay the price now.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The smaller battery is a dream come true if you look at it from a financial point of you.

They always try to loose weight on cars and this is one of the few ways they could actually save money and weight at the same time.

It's around 3kg weight loss, when going from 45Ah to 34Ah, which is alot.

And most likely around 30% cheaper too.

If you look at it that way, it's not hard to see why they took the risk.

Sadly their reputation will probably pay the price now.

Yet if they had cared to look at past 12v Battery issues with the Prius they would have known why the original 35Ah Battery was replaced with the larger 45Ah mid way through the gen2.

Too many assumptions and possible inexperience of the hybrid at Toyota UK. AGM batteries must be used as the 12v is inside the car. AGM batteries can't handle deep cycles as well as a traditional Battery. Perhaps 35Ah would have been fine if the 12v was in the engine compartment and used a flooded cell traditional 12v.

The hybrid system also takes much longer to top up a 12v. Not a problem with the 45 Ah battery in daily use but significant for the 35Ah AGM. Some have calculated that the 35Ah can only stand around 15 days parked up before the ancillary equipment pushes it below the critical 50% mark. Once below that for a few days and damage can occur and it'll never be right again. Those 15 days were in ideal conditions. If you've done a few short runs every few days, parked at the supermarket with your side lights left on by accident and left the car over the weekend in cold weather, the battery could fall below 50% much earlier.

It's a complete design fault. 12v problems on the Prius have been reported for years and years since the early gen1. When the keyless ignition was introduced mid way through the gen2, the 12v was increased to 45Ah.

Toyota UK decided to take a backwards step with the new Auris HSD, probably by a miscalculation or inexperience, and are now paying the price. Not sure if there's room to increase the battery compartment to hold a larger battery. Even a 40Ah may help.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota Europe Design and Development would have been responsible for the design and development of the Auris for the European market - based in France.

Toyota GB handle sales and marketing within the UK.

Toyota Motor Manufacturing UK manufacture the Auris and Avensis for the European market.

[RunningInPleasePass]

As promised an update on my cars flat Battery saga.

My car is still in the dealers having tests done on behalf of Toyota Product Quality Support.

They have phoned today with an update, they inform me that the Battery voltage on my car when I took it in was less then 10 volts.

The car had been stood for about 40 hours, so to drain the Battery in that time it must have had a large load, which they cannot find.

They are going to fit a new battery, first making sure that it is fully charged, then do further tests.

A Manager from Toyota Product Quality have asked to meet me at the dealers on Friday to talk about my car, so I'll keep you informed.

[timberwolf]

Are they still guessing? Shouldn't they be able to measure such a large current drain? If it was a continuous drain that would be roughly 800 mA (0.8 A) per hour?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Toyota Europe Design and Development would have been responsible for the design and development of the Auris for the European market - based in France.

Toyota GB handle sales and marketing within the UK.

Toyota Motor Manufacturing UK manufacture the Auris and Avensis for the European market.

Well that inspires confidence!?!?! Not. I am shocked to read this.

The French have never been great designing car electrics as my ownership of a Peugeot proved. The Aygo was plagued with quality issues and built in France. I think I'll be sticking to Japanese built Toyotas in future as they seem to be the more well thought out and reliable.

The French and reliable cars have never gone together. They make stylish cars, but never, ever reliable.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Aygo is built in the Czech Republic. The European Yaris is built in France.