Mpg And Build Quality On Yaris Hybrid

[Madasafish]

It is virtually impossible to achieve high mpg in a hybrid if you live in hilly areas. Why? Because you may use lots of energy going up, but the Battery capacity to store energy when going downhill is limited - and you have road obstacles also to contend with -like speed limits.

In hilly North Staffs the local Toyota salesman was averaging 50 in a hybrid Yaris...

[orangezorki]

In hilly North Staffs the local Toyota salesman was averaging 50 in a hybrid Yaris...

Do you think a salesman, with a car they don't have to pay maintenance for, will be encouraged to get the best mpg?

Having said that, I am used to owing two types of vehicle:

A: A car with much more power than is reasonably usable, driven well within its limits so I'm only driving fast, rather than stupidly fast/aggressive.

B: A car with much less power than average, driven in the same style as A (i.e. wrung within an inch of it's life). To be fair, my current Suzuki swift has held up fantastically, but as an auto it only gets 35mpg on average. I did manage to break a diesel Smart within about 3000 miles though...

When I get my Yaris Hybrid in a few weeks, we shall see. I do promise to be just a bit careful on the economy, and hope to see 55mpg with at least slightly careful driving. i'd be happy with that.

David

[dcweather]

We've just got our Yaris Hybrid Icon.I really like it. I read another thread by "NotHappy" about this which was locked. I have a lot of sympathy for what he said though. I should add that the mpg wasn't our prime reason for getting the Yaris Hybrid as my wife only does about 2500 miles a year, mostly short journeys. Our main reason was finding a quiet smooth auto in a small hatchback. So far it certainly meets those criteria.

But you have to face the fact that there are a large number of people reporting below 50 mpg. There seems to be a number of excuses for that but I think that whilst we all know the problems with the new testing regime you can't expect the ordinary punter to be dissapointed when it's almost half - on a car being sold for its electrical boost to economy! My 1.6 Skoda Diesel didn't have to be run in before I was getting 55-73 mpg! So I fully understand where he is coming from. I can't really comment so far but it's not looking great with the first few short trips returning 35 -52 mpg. And I live in flat Essex and have read how to drive it and have a track record of exceeding quoted average mpg's (old tests). I'm sure it will improve a bit in the summer and I would be happy to average 50 mpg on a 5 mile trip around town but I can tell from all the stuff I have read that this aspect is a genuine let down for a lot of people.

[Madasafish]

Before you complain, read this/: http://tinyurl.com/mp475qd

The EU testing regime is incredibly lax... but those are the ONLY figures allowed to be quoted by makers.

It's easy to find that out.. and it's also easy to find out what "real" mpg can be expected.

People who do not deserve little sympathy if they buy on unrealistic expectations when the testing system is well known to be in total disrepute..

[dcweather]

Like I said - not a problem for me, seems a great car. BUT to assume everybody, especially some even older than me, will know all this is simply not true. Yes - people who go on forums will but most people will believe the Manufacturer's hype and general advertising literature. For my own part my research showed about 55mpg average and I hoped I would beat that perhaps but I'm doubtful at the moment. Plus I didn't notice the dealer or Toyota saying these figures are totally unrealistic for this car and only expect 50-60% under normal conditions so it is mis-leading however discredited the Test is.

"US authorities have been far more effective in identifying carmakers
unfairly distorting tests. Hyundai and Ford have been required to
reimburse customers for incorrect fuel economy figures while Mercedes
and BMW-Mini have also been recently caught and are awaiting sanctions
to be imposed. Checks on production cars by the independent US
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have identified the anomalies,
unlike the totally ineffective system in Europe."

[FROSTYBALLS]

A couple of points:

The EU fuel consumption testing regime was never intended to provide information on the fuel consumption owners will actually achieve.

The intention was to provide comparative information using standard tests that applied to all cars on sale - so, for example, a prospective purchaser could have an indication of whether the Acme Motors RoadRunner is more or less economical than the Wily Coyote.

Car manufacturers and dealers are legally only supposed to use the EU official consumption figures. There have been examples of misquoting - eg Audi in 2014 where they misquoted the figures in advertising last year, implied that the EU figures were what owners would achieve, and, after a complaint to the ASA was upheld, had to withdraw and revise their adverts.

Changes to the EU fuel consumption testing regime are currently being worked on, which will provide consumption figures which are closer to those achievable in the real world.

Currently I'm looking at renewing two tyres on our second car, and have been looking at the EU tyre labelling of different tyres. I have decided that the fuel economy ratings aren't worth looking at too seriously. When one looks at the information on the fuel economy rating, this states

"A tyre's rolling resistance score ranges from A to G. Over the life of the tyre, fitting an A rated tyre could save you up to 6 litres of fuel when compared to a G rated tyre."

Say for example a typical tyre lasts for 25,000 miles - choosing an A rated tyre over a G rated tyre will save 6 litres of fuel over that life span, or, at today's prices, approx £6.50. The OE equipment tyres we're replacing have an E rating for fuel economy, and the replacement tyres I'm looking at are rated C. So for the two tyres we're replacing, the fuel saving will be less than the £13 over the life of the two tyres (which, on our current mileage, will be over a period of about four years assuming no punctures, etc).

[Parts-King]

There have been examples of misquoting - eg Audi in 2014 where they misquoted the figures in advertising last year, implied that the EU figures were what owners would achieve, and, after a complaint to the ASA was upheld, had to withdraw and revise their adverts.

Which is why the following wording is used on websites

The combined figures quoted are sourced from official EU-regulated test results obtained through laboratory testing. These are provided for comparability purposes and may not reflect your actual driving experience.

[dcweather]

I agree with everything that people are saying. But it is naive to think that Joe Public think quoted figures are just some illustrative comparison and should be ignored. Most of this has only recently surfaced in the mass media and not to any great extent like say a major feature on BBC News, as far as I know. The major problem is that the previous testing could be used as it was very realistic in my opinion and people have been using them for what, twenty years? It takes time to establish what appears to be the same thing is in fact rubbish!

Headlining in Toyota's Hybrid Page:-

'Saves Fuel and we're ahead of the game'

1.2 billion litres have been saved compared to petrol cars of the same size.

Toyota has always been one step ahead. In fact, our latest hybrids outperformed the EU’s 2014 criteria for emissions before they were even announced.

'More Money in your Pocket'

"

Different roads, traffic and driving styles all affect the amount you’ll save but as you’ll be paying less at the petrol pump you can expect a little more in your pocket.

In urban areas this is especially true as Toyota’s Stop & Start system saves energy by switching off the engine whenever the car is stopped."

So don't tell me Toyota aren't implying that with a Hybrid system the expectation isn't to considerably beat other small petrol engined hatchbacks on fuel consumption,

Dave

[Parts-King]

Not sure what you mean by that, yes of course they are saying a Hybrid MPG and emissions are better than other small cars

What the disclaimer says is that not everybody will get the same MPG. This forum is littered with people who cannot get anywhere near the quoted figures, and others who beat them hands down. Most people never accept that their driving style is a major influence on MPG, when in actual fact, it is the THE major influence

[dcweather]

Hopefully I will be able to get figures near or better than the good ones some have quoted. The extra urban for my 1.6TDI Octavia is 72.8 mpg which I can achieve. The Urban value seems ok at 48mpg but my average is 58mpg vs the combined of 62mpg but of course I don't know what proportion of urban/extra I have driven compared to the test. So I don't think my style is likely to be a hinderance. We will see.

[sammoj]

Love the way the MPG figures on the hybrids always generate so much chat... ;-)

For what it's worth my Yaris Hybrid is 15 months old, 12k on the clock. First 4000 miles on winter tyres were awful, 45-48mpg maximum. Didn't matter how carefully I drove it. During the summer months it gradually improved with summer tyres and warmer weather to the point that in early October I was getting up to 67 mpg. At the end of the month with Winter Tyres on and the colder weather I am at 51 mpg now. Trips are mainly 10 mile round trip to work with a 60% urban, 40% extra urban mix.

I did once drive home as carefully as possible coasting where i could, rolling down hills, braking when i could to recharge. I hit 81 mpg. But life is too short to do that everyday.

So yes it can get close if you drive in such a way where other road users are giving you finger gestures. Also turn off the heater and leave it off, that will take 4-5mpg off your figures as it keeps the engine running to warm the car.

I totally understand the frustration here, yes we all know the EU figures are rubbish and we know that manufacturers have to use it. But the Hybrid range are promoted heavily on these figures, I took 25% off to be realistic and in the first year was actually down nearer 40-45% so felt short changed to say the least. Now the car is run in I am a bit happier but have already decided it's fully electric for me next time.

John

[FROSTYBALLS]

"But it is naive to think that Joe Public think quoted figures are just some illustrative comparison and should be ignored. Most of this has only recently surfaced in the mass media and not to any great extent like say a major feature on BBC News, as far as I know."

Two extracts from the UK Vehicle Certification Agency web page on fuel consumption testing:

"The fuel consumption testing scheme is intended to give potential car buyers comparative information about the relative fuel consumption of different models in standard tests.

Nearly all new car models which are type approved for sale in the European Union have to undergo the standard tests to determine their fuel consumption."

"The fuel consumption figures quoted in this guide are obtained under specific test conditions, and therefore may not necessarily be achieved under ‘real life’ driving conditions. A range of factors may influence actual fuel consumption - for example, driving style and behaviour, as well as the environment and conditions under which the vehicle is operated. Furthermore, since several different specifications (variants or versions) of a given model may be grouped together in the list, the figures used in this guide should be treated as indicative only."

So it is not naive to think that Joe Public think quoted figures are just some illustrative comparison and should be ignored - and no-one has said that - but it is naive for Joe Public to think the figures are not an illustrative comparison and for them to think they represent real world fuel consumption. Especially when the organisations responsible clearly state the comparative nature of the testing results.

Yes, some manufacturers may work to distort the results in their favour - hopefully the revised testing regime will reduce that distortion.

You get similar distortion in the Euro NCAP testing - which, by the way, isn't a compulsory testing regime. Some manufacturers have been accused in the past of deliberately engineering their vehicles specifically to score well in the Euro NCAP testing. However, in the real world, those same cars may not perform as well as the Euro NCAP tests indicate.

As with the fuel consumption tests, the Euro NCAP tests are just an indication.

[dcweather]

As I said - I don't disagree with the facts of the matter Mike. It is just this lack of sympathetic approach to some people who clearly didn't know this, haven't read the small print so to say. And there are cleraly many in that category and I doubt they are all stupid, just don't live in the world of the motor industry and are not up to speed with all its nuances. Different cars have different degrees of failure to meet quoted figures (as my Skoda shows) but whether you like it or not Hybrids are sold on their environmental benefits largely wrt fuel consumption so you wouldn't expect a 45% shortfall as quoted by John above because it's a bit cold or the car is new etc.

To requote

Headlining in Toyota's Hybrid Page:-

'Saves Fuel and we're ahead of the game'

That would appear to be pushing it a bit.

[FROSTYBALLS]

An EU testing regime has been in place since 1970, and the current system in place since 1990. I don't think one has to live in the motoring world to know there are problems with the current system, given the amount of media coverage, and not just in the motoring press, there has been over the past five years or so.

If the approach hasn't been as sympathetic as you would hope for, that is a shame, but people also need to have realistic expectations. Perhaps the responses have been biased more towards reality than sympathy.

I posted a link earlier in this topic to the Honest John Real mpg page for the Yaris Hybrid - which shows that owners who have posted there are achieving a real world average of 57.7mpg, or 76% of the EU figures for the Hybrid.

OK - this average mpg is 3.4mpg less than the diesel and 4.2mpg more than the most economical petrol Yaris (the 1.0 litre). Both the petrol and diesel versions get closer to their EU fuel consumption figures than the Hybrid - and undoubtedly cars from other manufacturers either get closer to or further way from their respective consumption figures. However, a real world average of 57.7mpg isn't bad, and certainly the Hybrid will be cleaner than both the petrol and diesel versions.

[Madasafish]

"Pulse and Glide" is the way to drive a hybrid efficiently.

The salesman I referred to above getting 50mpg is now using P&G and is getting 60mpg (he claims when son bought a car from him pre Xmas). He is now the local "expert" in driving hybrids for better mpg..

[CPN]

I would completely agree with that P&G technique. It's something I've learnt very quickly with ours and we're only 1600 miles into the life of our car. Accelerate to your chosen speed as quickly as possible, using full power if necessary, then back right off the throttle as soon as you get there.

We had an excellent trip home from my mother's yesterday (Stourbridge) of around 122 miles which was mostly by motorway (M5, 6, 42, 1 & M18 ) and perhaps 10% urban. Started with a full tank and zeroed the avg mpg meter. The average speed shown for the trip was 61 mph as we pulled into our driveway and the average fuel consumption was 63.8 mpg! REALLY pleased with this nice little car (first long trip it's had in quite a while).

Oh and by the way, this was on 15" winter wheels /tyres but I don't count this as a factor because the combination I have has a rolling circumference that is only -0.27% difference from the standard 16" wheels combo... Oh and above all BE GENTLE WITH YOUR FEET while cruising! Especially when braking (where possible). Finally, if you have it, use the Cruise Control as much as possible based on your GPS speed (if you can) not Speedo Speed (which is very inaccurate on ours). I noticed at times that when I was doing a steady (true) 60 on the flat, the ICE was merely ticking over at between 800 - 1,000 rpm so most of the work was being done by the traction motor and Battery... (I have the Torque Android app connected by BT to an ELM327 OBDII plug...)

[dcweather]

Does this P&G thing only apply to Hybrid cars? It seems to go against previously recommended economical driving methods of steady progressive acceleration and not something I've tried or even heard of before.

[CPN]

As far as my own experiences go, I would only try this on a hybrid. I certainly wouldn't try this method with a conventional car... (as I very much doubt it would work based on 45 yrs driving experience)

[Madasafish]

Does this P&G thing only apply to Hybrid cars? It seems to go against previously recommended economical driving methods of steady progressive acceleration and not something I've tried or even heard of before.

You cannot really glide on a manual .. the gearbox slows you down. The trick with a hybrid is using the Battery power. The capacity is small - about 1.6 miles on a Yaris hybrid - so you want to use the electric motor wherever possible - and charge the Battery on braking/slowing down..

Once the Battery has been charged (to c 80% of capacity) any more energy recovered is just wasted.. So the art is to keep regenerating and using it up.

If you drive a hybrid like a conventional car you will get poor mpg..Period.

(Which is why owners complain. If I were Toyota, I'd sell a cheap 1 hour training course of how to drive. But the problem would be (I suspect) that those who need it most would think they don't..... NOT a dig at anyone here btw)

I drove a Prius having read about Pulse and Glide and averaged about 59mpg in 1 hour's mixed driving ( after averaging about 45mpg in my first 30 mins)

[dcweather]

I didn't notice what car it was but perhaps this car I saw going along the motorway at 65 mph then slowing up to 50 mph then accelerating again for no apparent reason was doing this. I thought he had been drinking to be honest and the unpredictable nature of his driving made it dangerous. A concept I may try but probably more as a scientific experiment or when I am the only driver on the road which is never where I live!

[Cyker]

Erk, that's pretty poor technique from that guy! Not only is it inconsiderate to other drivers, it's !Removed! dangerous too!

I suspect it wouldn't work that well too. Dropping from 65mph to 50mph is bleeding off a lot of momentum which you'd need to put back in to get back to 65mph and I reckon that'd wipe out any savings you made from coasting down to 50 in the first place...!
Personally I find maintaining your momentum and trying to not to brake or accelerate too much works better than going up and down the speedo; I've been experimenting between driving at 63mph with overtaking bursts, and just driving at 70mph and the 70mph tanks seem to be consistently higher mpg than the 63mph + burst ones so far.
(I also tried just driving at 63mph but overtaking a truck at 63mph proved to be much more risky than it should be due to the high speed difference in the middle lane. Frankly I was too scared I'd get an Audi up the jacksie! Heck, even when I'm doing 70mph in the middle lane, people are flying past like I'm standing still on the outer lane! )


Also, pulse and glide isn't limited to hybrids, but they probably benefit the most from it; Diesel drivers have been doing it long before hybrids even existed! Hybrids are highly suited to it tho' as, like old unturbo'd diesels, they can hold onto their momentum because they have so little engine-braking.
I kinda do something similar during my normal journeys - Accelerate briskly off the lights to get into the more efficient high gears faster, then coast/idle-roll to the next set of lights and lift off earlier to let the car bleed off speed and save myself braking so much. With good timing, you can coast right through the lights, give the engine a bit of a boost to give you enough momentum to stay in the high gears and cruise to the next set of lights, rinse and repeat.
It does save a lot of fuel, I'm averaging mid-60's mpg on my 10-year old Yaris D4D despite it being used more urbanie than motorway...ie... :D

[CPN]

I didn't notice what car it was but perhaps this car I saw going along the motorway at 65 mph then slowing up to 50 mph then accelerating again for no apparent reason was doing this. I thought he had been drinking to be honest and the unpredictable nature of his driving made it dangerous.

Absolutely it did I'm sure but I don't think that behaviour matches with the "pulse and glide" technique that's being talked of here... The kind of behaviour that Cyker has described in his post #46 is how I understand the pulse and glide technique...

Also, having the extra visual indications of an ICE Rev counter and MG1 & MG2's actual rotational speeds as well as other meters (via the Torque app) helps to hone this technique more easily and sympathetically with how the HSD powertrain operates during normal operations. The results speak for themselves and don't necessarily mean having to drive the car slowly either...

[dcweather]

As I said - I don't disagree with the facts of the matter Mike. It is just this lack of sympathetic approach to some people who clearly didn't know this, haven't read the small print so to say. And there are cleraly many in that category and I doubt they are all stupid, just don't live in the world of the motor industry and are not up to speed with all its nuances. Different cars have different degrees of failure to meet quoted figures (as my Skoda shows) but whether you like it or not Hybrids are sold on their environmental benefits largely wrt fuel consumption so you wouldn't expect a 45% shortfall as quoted by John above because it's a bit cold or the car is new etc.

To requote

Headlining in Toyota's Hybrid Page:-

'Saves Fuel and we're ahead of the game'

That would appear to be pushing it a bit.

Headlining in Toyota's Hybrid Page:-

'Saves Fuel and we're ahead of the game'

(Well in summer, if you adopt a specialised new driving style" )

[FROSTYBALLS]

As I said - I don't disagree with the facts of the matter Mike. It is just this lack of sympathetic approach to some people who clearly didn't know this, haven't read the small print so to say. And there are cleraly many in that category and I doubt they are all stupid, just don't live in the world of the motor industry and are not up to speed with all its nuances. Different cars have different degrees of failure to meet quoted figures (as my Skoda shows) but whether you like it or not Hybrids are sold on their environmental benefits largely wrt fuel consumption so you wouldn't expect a 45% shortfall as quoted by John above because it's a bit cold or the car is new etc.To requote Headlining in Toyota's Hybrid Page:-'Saves Fuel and we're ahead of the game' That would appear to be pushing it a bit.

Headlining in Toyota's Hybrid Page:-'Saves Fuel and we're ahead of the game'(Well in summer, if you adopt a specialised new driving style" )

Petrol and diesel cars require different driving styles to get the best out of them and taking into account their differing characteristics - eg petrols having less torque than diesels, diesels having a more limited rev range, etc. Perhaps hybrids need more adjustment, but requiring a different driving style isn't unique to hybrids.

Also cold weather can adversely affect the fuel consumption of petrol and diesel cars - so again no different to hybrids.

[orangezorki]

Does this P&G thing only apply to Hybrid cars? It seems to go against previously recommended economical driving methods of steady progressive acceleration and not something I've tried or even heard of before.

You cannot really glide on a manual .. the gearbox slows you down. The trick with a hybrid is using the Battery power. The capacity is small - about 1.6 miles on a Yaris hybrid - so you want to use the electric motor wherever possible - and charge the Battery on braking/slowing down..

Once the Battery has been charged (to c 80% of capacity) any more energy recovered is just wasted.. So the art is to keep regenerating and using it up.

If you drive a hybrid like a conventional car you will get poor mpg..Period.

(Which is why owners complain. If I were Toyota, I'd sell a cheap 1 hour training course of how to drive. But the problem would be (I suspect) that those who need it most would think they don't..... NOT a dig at anyone here btw)

I drove a Prius having read about Pulse and Glide and averaged about 59mpg in 1 hour's mixed driving ( after averaging about 45mpg in my first 30 mins)

The problem is that it sadly isn't that simple. I tried the tactic of using the battery whenever possible when I first got my car, and all that happens is that you have fantastic mpg for a mile or two, and then the engine runs extra hard to recharge the battery, which more than negates any benefits. Ultimately the hybrid is meant to recoup some of the losses when you are braking or not using the engine in its sweet spot. It's also worth noting that petrol has quite a bit less energy stored in it than diesel, so the fact that it can in some circumstances match a diesel is pretty impressive, but that does take perfect conditions and driving to the benefits of the hybrid.

I definitely have managed to get better mpg as my milage and experience have increased. High point was 69mpg on a leisurely trip from London to Liverpool in the summer, and a recent 100 mile trip just after Christmas still netted over 60mpg. But conditions are everything, and recent short trips in the cold have been more like 35.

These are the completely unoriginal tips that I have learned can improve your mpg:

1. Keep the heater off when the engine isn't up to temperature. It will just keep running and mpg will plummet.

2. Keep the eco meter between the middle of the dial and below the power band. Acceleration will be just about fast enough, and you will recharge the battery instead of depleting it.

3. Be aware of what is in front of you, keep your distance, and come off the accelerator completely at the first sign of any red lights in front. You will be amazed how far you will go while not burning any fuel, recharging the battery a bit, and if you are lucky the lights or holdup will lift and you can keep going, leaving all the stationary traffic for dust.

4. Pulse and glide is basically only using No. 2 and then lifting off and applying the throttle just enough so that there are no arrows on the energy flow display so you are coasting in neutral. When you are about to get too slow, rinse and repeat. Only works up to 40mph, and can be a bit of a hassle.

5. Try to never get in a situation when you have to brake hard. You want that energy in the battery, not wearing out your expensive brake pads!

6. Avoid queues like the plague. Of course the hybrid will help, but if you are stuck too long the engine will kick in from time to time.

All in all, I completely understand the dissatisfaction with mpg that many here have. But, I have done trips at decent speeds in the summer and at the end the bonnet was completely cool to the touch. I can't imagine that there is much extra to be done with the efficiency of a small petrol car. I like the car, and like the fact that the green credentials just make sense rather than requiring a pious lifestyle statement. Sure, the stereo is a bit meh and Toyota has an uncanny ability to phone in interiors from the 1990s, but I have everything I need - auto box, bluetooth, parking sensors, safety, sat-nav, DAB, panoramic roof, keyless go. I'm not really missing out on anything.

David