Poor And I Mean Poor Mpg, And Tyre Pressures In Winter Tyres

[FROSTYBALLS]

"It's almost certainly because you are running on those ridiculous 17" low profile wheels that have been fitted."

An assumption - albeit wrong.

Nicolai lives in Denmark, and the specs to the Auris Hybrid Touring Sports are different ot the UK. Instead of the Icon and Excel, they now have the H2, H2+, H2+ Comfort, H3, H3 Comfort, H3 Skyview, H3 Comfort Skyview and H4 Skyview.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

"It's almost certainly because you are running on those ridiculous 17" low profile wheels that have been fitted."

An assumption - albeit wrong.

Nicolai lives in Denmark, and the specs to the Auris Hybrid Touring Sports are different ot the UK. Instead of the Icon and Excel, they now have the H2, H2+, H2+ Comfort, H3, H3 Comfort, H3 Skyview, H3 Comfort Skyview and H4 Skyview.

Keeping it simple then? lol

No wonder Nicolai is so confused by it all.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota Denmark appear to have increased the number of specs rather than keep things like the Skyview roof on the options list. Think when Nicolai bought his Auris Hybrid, the specs were something like H2, H2+, H3 and H4.

[Ratho1]

What a mad mad world of specs. No wonder I am confused. Sorry Nicolai. However, I must say that when I test drove both wheel sizes I didn't find a great deal of difference. In my opinion the 15" size was marginally softer but I wanted the Excel add ons, hence my own choice. I would say as a general comment that all cars do seem to be giving harder rides these days and it's not only those running on low profile tyres. I think it has something to do with so called "sportiness". The Audi S grades are rock hard and uncomfortable for example. Or am I just feeling my age more perhaps ?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

No you're not. Motoring journalists like harder, sportier suspension as they enjoy throwing the cars around test tracks when they test drive them. Effectively they're enthusiasts selling magazines to fellow enthusiasts.

I remember the WhatCar (or was it Which) reviews of the Prius. They said they didn't like its soft suspension and overly light steering and rated it 3/5. The very same magazine survey of owners experiences was that they loved the cars soft ride and light steering and rated it 5/5. Go figure.

Also, and this comes from my girlfriend. She now struggles to find a comfortable car to drive as steering seems to be 'weighted' more and more. She had to sell her Honda Civic as it was just too heavy for her (she's only 5'3'') and after a days driving as a mobile nurse, she said her arms ached. The Toyota IQ is spot on, easy to park and nice and light steering.

I wish car manufacturers noted that not everyone wants a car to throw around country lanes or is an up and coming Sterling Moss. I want a nice, light, comfortable, smooth car to drive that absorbs bumps yet will stick to the road on bends when needed BUT not at the expense of having my fillings rattled out. Japanese cars used to offer that but the 'Europeanisation' seems to be making them heavier.

[crand5]

It's almost certainly because you are running on those ridiculous 17" low profile wheels that have been fitted. I don't know why Toyota do this when they have 15" high profile available on the Icon version. You would also get 10% better fuel consumption with the smaller wheel.

Is it really as much as 10% difference in MPG between the 17" & 15" wheels?

The problem I have is i want the best MPG so the ICON in UK trim versions but like all the extras on the Excel version. Why don't Toyota allow you to spec extras on the Icon or smaller wheels on the Excel. Would certainly help me decide on if I get an Auris Sports Tourer as my next car.

[FROSTYBALLS]

I think one can opt for 16 inch alloys as a dealer-fit option. However, you have to be careful that this change from the standard spec is acceptable to your insurance company. One TOC member who was with Toyota Motor Insurance found that, when he was considering fitting 15 inch wheels with winter tyres to his Auris, the insurance company wouldn't accept the change.

[crand5]

I think one can opt for 16 inch alloys as a dealer-fit option. However, you have to be careful that this change from the standard spec is acceptable to your insurance company. One TOC member who was with Toyota Motor Insurance found that, when he was considering fitting 15 inch wheels with winter tyres to his Auris, the insurance company wouldn't accept the change.

Unfortunately mine will be a lease car and they will not budge from the Toyota specs - so if it is not available from factory fit then it's not possible for me.

[Nicolai]

Toyota Denmark appear to have increased the number of specs rather than keep things like the Skyview roof on the options list. Think when Nicolai bought his Auris Hybrid, the specs were something like H2, H2+, H3 and H4.

Scratch the H4. There were only three different trims (for the hybrid) at that time. I see folding mirrors are finally available. I would have liked those.

[Cyker]

Is it really as much as 10% difference in MPG between the 17" & 15" wheels?

The problem I have is i want the best MPG so the ICON in UK trim versions but like all the extras on the Excel version. Why don't Toyota allow you to spec extras on the Icon or smaller wheels on the Excel. Would certainly help me decide on if I get an Auris Sports Tourer as my next car.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was; The bigger wheels are noticeably heavier and supposedly 1kg of extra unsprung/wheel weight has the same effect on performance as 4kg of extra sprung weight!

(I can believe it too; The puncturesafe goop in my wheels, while not really weighing a huge amount, has had a similar effect on the car as when I had temporary steel rims on )

The thing about the danish trims is interesting; Is the certification process unusually expensive or laborious in this country? I'm just curious why there seem to be so many more engine and trim combinations everywhere but here! And optional extras!

There are so many combinations for the Yaris Mk1 for instance, but when you look at the later ones it just seems so lacking (esp. the dark age where the Mk2 had 2 trims and 3 engines, and some of the trims weren't even available for some of the engines!)

[Ratho1]

The permitted wheel combinations in the UK are a bit weird. For the Hybrid ONLY, you may have 15" alloys on the Icon or 17" alloys on the Excel. For non hybrid it seems to depend on both engine type AND equipment grade. Also 16" is available for non hybrid cars. How daft can it get ?

Toyota quotes Eu m.p.g. figures ( urban driving ) 72.4 on 17" wheels and 80.7 on 15" wheels. Have also in mind that the 15" tyre will last longer and cost only about 2/3 the cost of a 17" tyre to replace, and according to the Toyota handbook they are more stable than 17" to drive on snow and ice, so why do they promote these ridiculous things ?

As Frosty says, insurance is also a major problem if you try to deviate from the Toyota spec.

[Cyker]

Yeah, I really don't get the reasoning behind stupidly big rims. Bigger rims have exactly one advantage - They let you fit bigger brake calipers.

This is not an issue on HSDs since they have brake calipers smaller than my Yaris's!

In every other respect they are worse: Ride quality is worse, handling is worse, tyres are more expensive, risk of rim damage is higher, acceleration and braking are worse.

Even Formula 1 cars use extremely high profile tyres because they understand bigger rims = worse everything!

[Sagitar]

W.H.S. Fashion has so much to answer for.

[Mr Lawrence]

Well ... you may call the 17" stupid but they sure look much(!) nicer than the 15" :)

For me, definitely worth the (in my opinion) small sacrifice in ride comfort and fuel economy.

But to each his own :)

[kithmo]

Well ... you may call the 17" stupid but they sure look much(!) nicer than the 15" :)

For me, definitely worth the (in my opinion) small sacrifice in ride comfort and fuel economy.

But to each his own :)

+1

[kithmo]

One thing that I like about the new Volvo hybrid is that you can override the leccy side of things, so if you are anticipating, e.g. a lot of slow/town driving, you can force it to use the diesel engine exclusively and charge the battery instead of operating as a shared discharge, so that when you get to that section the diesel engine can be switched off and the car run on the batteries alone.

This thinking is counter-productive and not borne out in evidence.

It can be done in Toyota hybrids as well, but it not recommended, unless you know something (like a long hill descent coming up ahead) that the computer doesn't.

Slow/town driving is exactly when you would be wanting to use electric power if possible, but if you haven't built up sufficient Battery reserve so that the system computer runs in HV mode anyway, then you should let the computer juggle the ICE and leccy modes as it sees fit and not override it.

Using the diesel engine to charge the batteries later will only result in about 30% efficiency so is a very expensive and inefficient way to go about the process. Your mpg's will not benefit from this practice. It is best to let the engine management computers control the system to eke out the best efficiency.

I think the idea with the Volvo is to save pollution in town, even if it means sacrificing economy.

[Heidfirst]

" Toyota quotes Eu m.p.g. figures ( urban driving ) 72.4 on 17" wheels and 80.7 on 15" wheels. Have also in mind that the 15" tyre will last longer and cost only about 2/3 the cost of a 17" tyre to replace, and according to the Toyota handbook they are more stable than 17" to drive on snow and ice, so why do they promote these ridiculous things ?"

They not only look better but give better grip & handling in the dry & damp. It's only in M&S & bad standing water that you are better off with a taller, narrower tyre.

"Even Formula 1 cars use extremely high profile tyres because they understand bigger rims = worse everything!"

No, they use them because that is what the rules state they must use (iirc wheels must be no larger than 13") - they have no choice. If the teams were allowed to use any tyre that they could they would use very different items.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Yeah, I really don't get the reasoning behind stupidly big rims. Bigger rims have exactly one advantage - They let you fit bigger brake calipers.

This is not an issue on HSDs since they have brake calipers smaller than my Yaris's!

In every other respect they are worse: Ride quality is worse, handling is worse, tyres are more expensive, risk of rim damage is higher, acceleration and braking are worse.

Even Formula 1 cars use extremely high profile tyres because they understand bigger rims = worse everything!

The reason why I chose the 15's on mine or one of the reasons for the t3. Much more forgiving on curbs ;)

[Cyker]

@Heidfirst - Well that could be a bit of chicken/egg problem, but I'm pretty sure the F1 teams started moving to smaller, lighter rims before the rules began to codify them, but it is basic knowledge that smaller rims = less unsprung weight = better performance.

Also, as there is more rubber, the tyres can deform to grip better under load, which a lower profile tyre would lose out on and be more prone to skidding.

Personally, I like paying ~£40 for premium tyres instead of £70+ like my 15" rimmed Yaris brethren :P (I don't even want to think what the 16" and 17" rim people pay! )

@kithmo - Surely the leccy motor would be WAY more efficient in town than the stinky diesel motor? I know my D4D really doesn't like idling for long periods in town traffic. It gets bored and starts to fall asleep (And after a while it'll just blart a load of soot into some unfortunate tailgater... )

Actually, re-reading that, I think Joseph might be confused as I KNOW you can't do that trick in a HSD. You can do the opposite (i.e. force the HSD to use the electric motor only by engaging EV mode), but you can't force the main engine to stay on to pre-charge the Battery. I think it would be a worthwhile addition to the HSD because as smart as it is, it can't anticipate as well as a driver can.

Apparently the main reason Volvo put that in was so the car is eligible to enter No Emission Zones, which the non-plugin HSDs probably wouldn't be allowed in (Or would need to pay a fee?).

[Heidfirst]

"The reason why I chose the 15's on mine or one of the reasons for the t3. Much more forgiving on curbs"

I watch out for kerbs but these 45/18s seem OK. I think that modern lp tyres are designed with a degree of rim protection.

"Personally, I like paying ~£40 for premium tyres instead of £70+ like my 15" rimmed Yaris brethren :P (I don't even want to think what the 16" and 17" rim people pay! )"

then you really don't want to know how much premium 225/45 18s are for my car ...

[kithmo]

@Heidfirst - Well that could be a bit of chicken/egg problem, but I'm pretty sure the F1 teams started moving to smaller, lighter rims before the rules began to codify them, but it is basic knowledge that smaller rims = less unsprung weight = better performance.

Also, as there is more rubber, the tyres can deform to grip better under load, which a lower profile tyre would lose out on and be more prone to skidding.

Personally, I like paying ~£40 for premium tyres instead of £70+ like my 15" rimmed Yaris brethren :P (I don't even want to think what the 16" and 17" rim people pay! )

£150 a corner for Michelins

@kithmo - Surely the leccy motor would be WAY more efficient in town than the stinky diesel motor? I know my D4D really doesn't like idling for long periods in town traffic. It gets bored and starts to fall asleep (And after a while it'll just blart a load of soot into some unfortunate tailgater... )

That's what I meant, force Diesel when out on the open road to charge the battery and save the charge for the city.

Actually, re-reading that, I think Joseph might be confused as I KNOW you can't do that trick in a HSD. You can do the opposite (i.e. force the HSD to use the electric motor only by engaging EV mode), but you can't force the main engine to stay on to pre-charge the battery. I think it would be a worthwhile addition to the HSD because as smart as it is, it can't anticipate as well as a driver can.

Apparently the main reason Volvo put that in was so the car is eligible to enter No Emission Zones, which the non-plugin HSDs probably wouldn't be allowed in (Or would need to pay a fee?).

[kithmo]

The reason why I chose the 15's on mine or one of the reasons for the t3. Much more forgiving on curbs ;)

Funny you should say that, but it doesn't seem to make a difference with the Prius.

I kerbed the Gen 3 rear wheel (145 45 17") on a corner kerb and the tyre actually contacted the kerb without touching the rim.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The reason why I chose the 15's on mine or one of the reasons for the t3. Much more forgiving on curbs ;)

Funny you should say that, but it doesn't seem to make a difference with the Prius.

I kerbed the Gen 3 rear wheel (145 45 17") on a corner kerb and the tyre actually contacted the kerb without touching the rim.

lol you weren't going fast enough ;)

[Joseph D]

Not to mention the masses of people who do not believe in maintaining their disesel.

@kithmo … (And after a while it'll just blart a load of soot into some unfortunate tailgater... )

I notice this a lot. Very good for the environment! It is probably the one thing that makes me hate diesel motors and why I think they should be banned in all but "heavy lifting" applications (until a better solution can be found).

Actually, re-reading that, I think Joseph might be confused as I KNOW you can't do that trick in a HSD. You can do the opposite (i.e. force the HSD to use the electric motor only by engaging EV mode), but you can't force the main engine to stay on to pre-charge the battery. I think it would be a worthwhile addition to the HSD because as smart as it is, it can't anticipate as well as a driver can.

Yes, I was confused and it took me more than a few reads to work out what the post was saying - and then I still got it wrong.

So you are saying that the Volvo has a method of forcing the diesel engine on? Yes, you are right there is no way to do that on the HSD. But, then, I would say why would you? That would require a whole lot of knowledge and concentration and just make HSD driving a killjoy. I suspect that the majority of people could not even be bothered trying to work it all out.

But, I return to my main point. In terms of efficiency, using the petrol/diesel engine (no matter how efficient) to charge your Battery will be inefficient. When you convert energy from one form to another there is loss. So, to charge the Battery with the engine, at a high level, you convert kinetic energy (motor) into potential energy (battery) to kinetic energy (motor).

I take the point about the logic of driving through a town on electric - no pollution, quieter, etc, but, you have to realise that you are only moving the problem from the town to the country/non-urban area, if the reason you can drive on electric is by pre-charging outside of the village/town/city.

I state again that with this regen technology that the only truly free (and green) method is the energy you can capture while rolling down a hill. However this is tempered by the fact that you had to get up to the top first, or return back to the top after. Braking allows you to capture some kinetic energy too, but you had to create this energy in the first place and the return is somewhere in the region of capturing 30% of the original energy expended.

Having said all of that, the results of the HSD speaks for itself. With what's on offer at present, I'd much rather have an HSD than a straight petrol or diesel.

I'd be really keen to see the stats returned by the Volvo diesel/electric hybrid once people start buying them and logging on sites like Fuelly.

Apparently the main reason Volvo put that in was so the car is eligible to enter No Emission Zones, which the non-plugin HSDs probably wouldn't be allowed in (Or would need to pay a fee?).

Huh? Is it just me, or does this make no sense? They would prefer a car driving on diesel only in the No Emission Zone??

I guess you have confused me again. :)

[Cyker]

Nooooooo! Let me clarify: The point of being able to force the car to run on the diesel ICE only is so you can pre-charge the Battery as much as possible. When you get to a NEZ, you then have the maximum charge available to run on electric only for the maximum amount of time.

With the HSDs, you have no control over the Battery charge so even if you know you are heading into a NEZ, you can't tell the car to keep running on the ICE and charge the Battery as much as possible so you might end up in the NEZ with only 1 mile of charge left, at which point the ICE will kick in to charge the battery.

I can't believe you don't see the huge advantage of being able to pre-charge the battery - I guess I'm just not very good at getting my explanation across :(

If you'll forgive me for using hills in the example again; It would surely be more efficient to extract charge for the battery while cruising on a flat motorway rather than while trying to climb said hill where you really want the ICE AND leccy motor working together instead of loading everything on the ICE?

If you are aware of the impending situation, you can prepare, adapt and optimize for it - This is what a good driver does, and being given the ability and tools to do so can surely only make a good driver better rather than everything being dumbed down.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the efficiency of charging the battery via the ICE vs regeneration tho' - Ignoring the energy from the plug-in side of things, ALL the energy in the battery comes from the ICE in a hybrid. Where do you think the regeneration energy comes from? Momentum which, ultimately, comes from the ICE! And yes you get energy back from going down hills, but I guarantee you it is nowhere near the amount of energy you expended climbing up the hill in the first place with, yes, the ICE!

The main reason hybrids are more efficient is that they recapture energy that would otherwise be lost, but that energy still comes from the ICE in the first place - It doesn't magically come from thin air! With the plug-ins you do get some from the grid too, but that is a tiny fraction compared to the total potential energy you get from the ICE.

The diesel thing is annoying tho'; For a given tech-level, the diesel cycle will always be more efficient than the petrol cycle because it can extract more energy from the combustion event. The problem is the high combustion temp and lack proper mixing of air and fuel - These can be overcome with advances in the tech and fuel but at the moment legislation is stacked against it, plus we're on the cusp of an electric revolution so the chances of those barriers being cracked any time soon are not good.

We actually have the ability to make cleaner diesel fuels already - The V-Power diesel is a good case as I can hoon about with that with a fraction of the soot output vs the sainsburys crap my Yaris is currently running on. If V-Power diesel was fully synthetic instead of part synethetic we could probably get rid of DPFs and get up to the magical 100mpg that I reckon an unencumbered state of the art diesel engine is capable of.

The problem is it's expensive; I can't justify the extra cost of it on a regular basis (If I was wealthy enough to not care about the cost of fuel, I'd probably have a Yaris HSD, or maybe a Tesla ), but TBH my Yaris D4D is an excellent car and I would be contributing far more damage to the environment by throwing it away for no good reason. (It's almost 10 years old yet still is better in almost every way than the brand new Mazda 2 my mate is looking to get Toyota built a !Removed! good car when they made the Yaris Mk1 D4D (With 5-doors! ))

Even biodiesel is shown to be much cleaner in all areas (With the exception of NOx's), but the government have withdrawn preferential taxing levels for biofuels which has pretty much killed off that as a mainstream industry.

Eek, apologies to all for the long post; I didn't realize it had gotten so long!