Time To Take On Toyota?

[Nick Matthews]

Hello Forum,

I've been a reader of this site for many years but never really had a need to get vocal until now. I won't bore you all with the minute details unless prompted but I feel like going to war with Toyota at the moment :censor:

My Aygo is a 2008 model and to be perfectly honest, until the last few months it was easily the best small car I have ever purchased.

Just before Xmas, whist on holiday in France, my water pump failed - this left me with a £300 bill to get home where I discovered from the forum that the water pump was a known weakness and had been re-designed on current models. I wrote to Toyota but being just outside the extended 5 year warranty they didn't want to know. I decided to put that one down to experience.

2 weeks ago my wife complained of condensation and wet dog smell - you know what's coming ! I had nearly 2 inches of water in the spare wheel well and the nearside carpets were sodden.

Again I'm outside the warranty period. Again Toyota have politely declined to take any responsibility but this time I'm not prepared to roll over so easily.

The car has done just 31k - garaged for over half of its life - as I have pointed out to Toyota, had I kept the car outside from day 1 I'm sure that the seals would have failed sooner - within the warranty period.

There are a number of points I have fired at Toyota in my latest response - and clichéd as they are - would any of us have bought our Aygo knowing that basic vital components would fail so quickly? Will prospective buyers of 2nd hand Aygos buy so readily if the issue became publicised and how will 2nd hand re-sale values be effected?

Quite simply this is the unexpected premature failure of a component due to poor design and/or poor selection of the materials used in manufacture.

I really feel like publicising this issue as much as possible whether that be by writing to the motoring magazines or attempting to raise it as a topic on a TV program like 'Watchdog'.

Does anyone else want to join my army? I am wasting my breath? Don't be complacent - If I had read this a couple of months ago I would have probably thought it relates to a few 'lemons' - After reading the numerous postings on this issue I would hazard a guess that there are hundreds of us who have already been effected or their leaks and other failures are just around the corner.

Nick :help2:

[FROSTYBALLS]

Items like the water pump and leaks are already well documented on sites like Honest John etc. They are also common faults with the Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107 - the Aygo/C1/107 is a product of the joint venture between Toyota and PSA. If you car has a full Toyota service history, you could approach Toyota re a possible goodwill contribution - however, if the car has an incomplete Toyota service history, it will probably be wasted effort.

[Nick Matthews]

Toyota haven't asked me about the service history - to them it is black and white - out of the warranty period simple as that. I know that the various forums are full of stories of woe and every other thread I read seems to comment about Toyota's lack of customer care. You are quite correct about the other problems but doesn't that make the situation worse for Toyota and it's reputation? Water pump - redesigned, clutch - uprated to the 190mm version, water seals - redesigned.

I once vowed never to buy a brand new car, especially a new model - seems that is still the best advice - let the early adopters iron out the issues and then make sure you only buy a model that has been 'updated'.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Aygo went on sale in 2005 and had already been on sale for approx three years before you purchased your 2008 model.

[Wiz201]

Aygo has been around for 9 years with mere small updates to the model specs. This year in September will be the first time they actually make any changes to the car.

[Parts-King]

In my experience it is usually the high level stop lamp or the bungs behind the bumper that are the cause of the problem, quite easy to sort out

You have a 3 year warranty and an additional 2 years goodwill on the water leak, at what point do you think there is a cut off? It was easily the best car you have ever purchased until this event!

You have no extended warranty and you have no rights under the sale of goods act, so I think you are going to struggle to get anything back from Toyota without spending huge amounts on legal fees. I would put that money towards fixing the car, it could be a lot cheaper than you think

You could write a letter to Toyota outlining all your service history, loyalty to the brand, a firm but polite letter with a bit of groveling to let them know how disappointed you are. Good luck

Kingo

[Nick Matthews]

I've got to be honest - I expected a little more support. Maybe its because you havent got to dip into your own pockets and lets face it, unless you own an Aygo you are extremly unlikely to ever replace door rubbers and the like unless you're renovating a classic.

I am a realist and expect a complicated machine to have issues as well as general wear and tear - come on, I owned a Jag - I know what niggles are!

Wiz - I don't understand your point - Yes they have made changes, they have redesigned the things that are repeatedly failing before normal life expectancy - water pump, clutch and seals to mention at least 3.

I still stand by my view that it is not reasonable for these parts to fail so quickly.

I've tried the grovelling letter - no joy. I've tried the very dissapointed letter - no joy.

I accept that ultimately I'm going to be repairing this problem myself. - is there a guide on removing the rear bumper I think that's the only tricky part.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Being honest - I'm not sure what you expect in terms of support.

Your car is in its sixth year, and quite a few Aygo/C1/107 owners have experienced the same faults a lot sooner than you.

Yes, you have missed out on the extended warranty for water leaks, but no manufacturer is going to provide warranty cover for faults ad infinitum. Toyota has already gone beyond what most other manufacturers would consider.

"Quite simply this is the unexpected premature failure of a component due to poor design and/or poor selection of the materials used in manufacture" - both faults are well documented on the internet (have been for a number of years), and with your Aygo, the faults haven't occurred until the car is within its sixth year. In your case, it is difficult to see how a fault that doesn't materialise for over five years is premature failure.

"I once vowed never to buy a brand new car, especially a new model - seems that is still the best advice - let the early adopters iron out the issues and then make sure you only buy a model that has been 'updated'." The Aygo/C1/107 had already been on sale for three years (approx one third of its life cycle) when you bought yours - so you weren't one of the early adopters.

Wiz201 was referring to the new model Aygo/108/C1 that is due to go on sale later in 2014.

[Nick Matthews]

I can see that Mr T can do nothing wrong in your eyes!

My Aygo was garaged for around the first 3 and a half years and probably did about 12k in that time - that is why it has taken 6 years for my faults to develop. I cant make use of a well intentioned warranty extension until the fault develops can I?

Did Toyota ever write to me telling me of the issues ? They had my address as they sent me lots of marketing material.

I'm afraid we are at completely opposite ends of the arguement Frosty. You argue that I do not appear to understand that any warranty must be limited - of course I understand that - what I am argueing is that these seals are failing due to poor manufacture - I assume that you think it is reasonable for door seals to fail after 5 years? Would you not be annoyed if your Auris began leaking just out of warranty? I think you would !

And just to close this - I'm sure you read many of the tales of woe in relation to this issue but remember, we are not talking a bit of damp carpet, we are talking inches of water in the boot and trapped in the depressions in the floor pan .

[FROSTYBALLS]

Quite the contrary, Toyota do get things wrong - but they also tend to provide more support to their customers than other manufacturers, when they do get things wrong.

The seven years of support to customers with the AD series of engines with potential head gasket issues is proof of this.

No manufacturer would write to their customers informing them of issues, unless the issues were subject to a safety recall - neither the water pump or the water leaks are safety related.

[Nick Matthews]

Frosty - I do realise that they are not going to write re this problem - they are a profit driven business.

Again you mention some previous outstanding customer support but again you do not answer my question - Would you be upset if your door seals failed on your Auris after 5 years ?

Simple question

[FROSTYBALLS]

Simple answer: No !!

Of the 17 cars we've owned from new, we have kept none for five years.

[Nick Matthews]

Well lucky you - That's obviously the solution !

[FROSTYBALLS]

Suum cuique.

[Parts-King]

Frosty - I do realise that they are not going to write re this problem - they are a profit driven business.

Again you mention some previous outstanding customer support but again you do not answer my question - Would you be upset if your door seals failed on your Auris after 5 years ?

Simple question

You are making the assumption the door seals have failed........have they?

As I said in a previous post, it is much more likely to be the high level brake light or the grommets behind the bumper, neither of which will cost a fortune. You could easily check with a hosepipe on the bodywork, check from the inside whilst it is running

Kingo

[Nick Matthews]

Thanks Kingo - I do intend to check the bumper area this weekend and my high level brake light had very little of the original seal left - most appears to have rotted away.

Is it possible for water to reach the front footwells in that quantity if the leak is one of the rear seals. I have assumed that the chassis braces that run left to right under the front seats would act as a barrier

[Parts-King]

When you brake, any water in the rear wells can move forward, so quite possible for the water to come in through the high level brake light and swish around the car ending up all over the place

The high level brake light seal should not be re-sealed with mastic and the like

Kingo

[daveyjp]

A 2008 car would have had the revised water pump - ours failed in 2007 (about 5,000 miles) and was replaced with the newer version. Unfortunately water pumps fail on cars, always have always will.

Leaks are an issue. Ours leaked early in its life, new and additional seals added, complete new carpet fitted and no problems, but by 6 years old the rubber was perishing around the rear lights and water was getting in. The electrics were also starting to play up, so we took advantage of the one benefit of AYgo ownersip, namely excellent residuals and traded it.

It is a case that no car lasts forever and at 5-6 years old you can begin to experience problems. The average lifespan of a car is only 8 years.

[dwilson]

A 2008 car would have had the revised water pump - ours failed in 2007 (about 5,000 miles) and was replaced with the newer version. Unfortunately water pumps fail on cars, always have always will.

Leaks are an issue. Ours leaked early in its life, new and additional seals added, complete new carpet fitted and no problems, but by 6 years old the rubber was perishing around the rear lights and water was getting in. The electrics were also starting to play up, so we took advantage of the one benefit of AYgo ownersip, namely excellent residuals and traded it.

It is a case that no car lasts forever and at 5-6 years old you can begin to experience problems. The average lifespan of a car is only 8 years.

8 years sounds too short - what do you base that on?

David

[Wiz201]

I've heard that the time to change a car is 8 years old cause beyond that age, you're more likely to get major problems etc.