2004 Corolla 1.4 Vvti Brake Issue

[buzf355]

Hi All,

I've been experiencing some issues with the brakes on my Corolla which I needed some guidance/advice on.

The 'rolla is a 1.4 T3 spec with ABS.

History

November 2012 - Noticeable brake bind occurring so took it to the mechanic. Caliper slide pins on the front weren't as free as the could be. So he stripped all 4 brakes, cleaned and lubed them up and flushed the brake fluid with DOT4

March 2013 - Brake bind re-appeared and concluded the front driver's side caliper was seized. So the mechanic replaced both front calipers with re-manufactured ones

October 2013 - After many months of trouble free brakes, I noticed some "potential" brake bind again. The main symptom being higher fuel consumption than normal. I took it to the mechanic again who jacked it up and checked if the wheels were spinning as free as they could, which all 4 seem to be doing so. He advised that as it was getting colder, it is possible the higher fuel consumption was due to the drop in temperature, which makes logical sense

December 2013 - By this point, fuel consumption had got significantly worse. I was getting approximately 100 miles less from a full tank, doing the same journey and consistent driving style. As the calipers had been replaced, the next step was replacing the front flexible brake hoses, which the mechanic did.

Present - After allowing the weather to get comparably warmer than 3 months ago and, giving the opportunity to test whether the issue was resolved with the replacement flexible hoses, the problem persists. Fuel economy is down up to another 50 miles less per full tank.

I'm now averaging approx. 300 - 320 miles on a fuel tank. Prior to the problem occurring, March 2013 after replacing the calipers with similar weather, I was getting 450-470 miles from a full tank, doing the same journeys!

I've recently taken it to 2 other mechanics for second opinions. I've fully described the circumstances and both mechanics think I'm being paranoid!

So, monitoring the situation over the past 3 weeks here's what I have found, leading me to conclude there is still an issue with the brakes:

1. Brakes appear to be reasonably free from cold.
2. Shortly after driving into my journey (I'd say approx. 5 miles), the brakes feel as if they are binding, but not by a great deal. This is supported by the fact that on a shallow incline, the vehicle doesn't roll back, where as 8 months ago on the same incline, roll back occurred.
3. After my journey, I 'feel' how hot the brakes are for comparison purposes. On a scale of 1 - 10 (1 being cold, 10 being Scorching hot) here's what I can consistently say:

• Front Driver's side - 10!
• Front Passenger Side - 6
• Rear Driver's Side - 3
• Rear Passenger Side - 5

I did some research over t'internet (dangerous, I know!) and suggestions are the possible culprits could be:

• Possible ABS pump malfunction (although no ABS warning lights are on the dashboard whilst driving)
• Brake Master Cylinder

I'm assuming (again, dangerous I know!) that because of the heat differential, I may possible be on a diagonal brake circuit?

I need some advice on what your thoughts are on what the root cause of the issue may be? Anyone had a similar experience and manage to resolve the issue?

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

buzf355

[oldcodger]

Hi,

Sounds like a real old problem you have there; and don't think you are paranoid :)

Do find the mpg does changes between summer and winter but typically just by about 3-4 mpg.

Does seem to be some noticeable omissions from you list of works, no mention of the discs or pads and not sure how the flexible pipes could create pressure to the caliper, they typically loose pressure because they balloon.

Any hint of steering wheel wobble or wobble when firmly braking from say 60+ down to 20 ish ?

Just my thoughts on your problem, if it was something to do with the ABS system, wonder if its possible to electrically disconnect it to see if that stops the problem.

Nothing has been mentioned about the ABS sensors and housing on each wheel which can be clogged with dirt / damaged /fail; though no idea if such a malfunction could cause the kind of binding you have ?

Again something that could be swapped around to see it that takes the fault with it.

Although you say you have not noticed any ABS check light etc, have you
had the error codes read off in case you might have missed any momentary
failures ?

When I had a little problem with the hand brake shoes binding at bit I was feeling the wheels for heat after a run and even the fronts only felt slightly warm, so for your front O/S to be 10 in must be seriously catching, but no mention of excessive pad wear .

Be interesting to hear what others say and how you get on..

[cmia]

If the wheels are getting warm, the brakes are binding.

What type of discs and pads do you have installed?a

re they warped?

Maybe the caliper holders, eg where the pads and shims sit are not installed or are rusty ?

are they the factory wheels if not are they the correct offset / pcd?

Have you tried to drive and Slam on hard and drive normally and see if that helps with the heat issue?

[buzf355]

Hi Guys!

Thanks for your replies.

Apologies for any omissions. When I read back my original post, I thought. "Phwoar! I can talk for England!" Then realised you may ask those questions.

Front Brakes (Replaced July 2012)

Brembo Discs

Set 1 - Apec Pads

Set 2 - Apec Pads (replaced July 2013 due to excessive wear from sticking calipers)

The discs and pads are of standard spec i.e. not upgraded to racing/high performance spec.

Wear on the front right disc/pads appear to be more than the front left. However, I don't appear to have any discolouration of the disc due to overheating (I did have some discolouration before the calipers were replaced - due to the calipers binding)

However, I haven't yet taken off the wheels to take a closer look to see if the driver's side pads have uneven wear (inner pad wear more than outer pad).

Rear Brakes (Replaced September 2012)

ADL - Blueprint (Discs and Pads) - Still on this set with plenty life left in them yet

Flexible Hoses

I bought the calipers from Brakes International (http://www.brakesint.co.uk/) and when I felt some binding again in October 2013, my mechanic advised to speak to them and seek their advice as a second opinion. They advised the inside wall of the flexible hoses could collapse, preventing any brake fluid from returning to the reservoir. This would result in some force applied to the caliper pistons, resulting in the brakes binding.

Comparably a cheap option to another new set of calipers, so I had them replaced.

Steering Wobble

I tried the firm brake test on the way home from work on a number of occasions (national speed limit roads approaching roundabouts). Generally the car feels stable. No wobble whilst driving either so I'm assuming the discs are in good shape i.e. not warped.

ABS

I assume that removing the fuse for the ABS would electrically disable this?

I haven't had any of the codes read. However, I must admit, I wouldn't know where to go to have these read without having my pants pulled down over the price! I'm assuming that even though no lights are on, if a fault was detected, the ECU would store this code anyway until it was manually cleared?

When I get the opportunity to have the wheels off and the brakes looked at, I'll have the ABS sensors looked at also. I suspect however, these will also be in reasonably good shape.

Slammed on the brakes on the private downhill drive whilst on the way out of work a few times. Did this to the get the ABS to kick in a few times. This obviously generated the usual heat from braking but when I returned home, the heat differential was the same as I described in my original post above above.

State of Caliper Holders

These are in good shape. When I had the pads changed in July 2013, the caliper holder were cleaned and new shims were installed. The ears of the pads were lubed with copper grease wherever the came into contact with the shims. The caliper slide pins were also lubed up.

In October 2013 when I noticed the problem re-occurring, my mechanic inspected the state of the the brake assembly on the front wheels and concluded everything was in order i.e. no rust and properly lubricated.

The wheels are standard factory fit 5 spoke that come on the T3. Everything is standard spec.

I think that's everything covered from the questions you guys had. I crack on with taking out the ABS fuse and see how I get on.

Thanks again guys. Your comments and guidance is much appreciated.

[cmia]

I know this might sound a little off have you made sure you have actually purchased the right set of the discs for the car?

Please inspect the rear of the caliper and pads.

If you were having master cylinder issues your pedal would sink or the master cylinder will keep priming.

You would have brake creep.

The ABS unit has its own ECU, and works independant from the master cylinder electronically, its function is to ensure the wheels dont lock by checking and reading the pins and pules from the drive shaft and hub.

[buzf355]

Hi cmia,

Thanks for your reply.

Perfectly valid suggestion.

I guess the only way of really knowing I have the right discs/pads is by using the Toyota genuine parts. However, since the last discs/pads that came off were Toyota ones, the new discs/pads were checked to ensure the were the same dimensions, both visually and by double checking the listed dimensions. Therefore, both me and the mechanic took comfort they were the right ones.

I think I need to have it inspected again thoroughly to rule out any obvious issues. Trouble is, the mechanics I've been to tend to want to do less investigative work to find the issue. They prefer more jobs involving replacing parts as that's more predictable in terms of time. Not all mechanics are like that however. I guess I need to find someone who's willing to do some in depth checks for me.

Can anyone recommend any good mechanics who may be able to help in and around the Coventry/Warwickshire area? Possible even Northamptonshire?

Thanks again

[oldcodger]

Hi,

It sure sounds like a real mystery.

If it was me I would want to get in there myself and do some basic checks on the basic parts, the pads, the sliders and the caliper piston to ensure they are moving freely.

Having said that when I got my rolla a couple of the sliders were semi seized but it did not cause any real problem / binding / overheating.

Also wonder if something is not the right size and so binding and getting hot and binding even more, yet freeing off when cool ?

A possible way to check things, though I do not know how exactly it could be done, would be to disconnect the brake line to that wheel and then run the engine/ front axle say on a suitable garages ramp and see if the brake overheats / binds.

Perhaps Cmia can suggest how to do that, as he seem to know his stuff.

ps CMia, great tip about those Dyes for finding a fluid leaks in that other post, never knew of them.

[cmia]

Hi cmia,

Thanks for your reply.

Perfectly valid suggestion.

I guess the only way of really knowing I have the right discs/pads is by using the Toyota genuine parts. However, since the last discs/pads that came off were Toyota ones, the new discs/pads were checked to ensure the were the same dimensions, both visually and by double checking the listed dimensions. Therefore, both me and the mechanic took comfort they were the right ones.

I think I need to have it inspected again thoroughly to rule out any obvious issues. Trouble is, the mechanics I've been to tend to want to do less investigative work to find the issue. They prefer more jobs involving replacing parts as that's more predictable in terms of time. Not all mechanics are like that however. I guess I need to find someone who's willing to do some in depth checks for me.

Can anyone recommend any good mechanics who may be able to help in and around the Coventry/Warwickshire area? Possible even Northamptonshire?

Thanks again

afew more questions.

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1 how much do you need to push the pedal down for you do get brake biting point?

2 when the wheels are hot as you say in your previous posts can you jack the car up and see if the wheel moves freely?

3 the shims are they genuine shims or came with the replacment pads ?

------------------------------

I think its time you eighter swapped mechanics or get dirty yourself. Its not that complicated to pre-check the brakes system.

Purchase a set of Axel Stands, a decent socket set, a Hex Socket Set, some brake cleaner, brake grease, copper grease, gloves, pair of thin nosed pliers, a large flat based screw drivers, afew rags, and a g clamp and a trolly jack.

Loosen the tyre nuts alittle, jack the car up from the front, install the axel stands. undo the nuts.

You will now see the brake disc with the caplier on the front.

ontop of the caliper you will see a metal spring, this needs to be removed. becareful and ensure you pull this out towards yourself.

Turn the steering wheel towards yourself

You should see the rear of the caliper at the top and the bottom of the rear of the caliper you will see two plastic bungs, they should be removed.

Find the right fitting Hex socket and loosen the top, then loosen the bottom. Keep looseing untill you see both of the nuts are free.

Looking from the top and the bottom of the caliper you should be able to see the sliding pins these nuts fit into. Pull the sliding pins back into the caliper..

Using the large flat screw driver as leverage slowly pull the caliper away from the disc / hub.

open the bonnet and undo the brake master cylinder top, put a rag around it.

INSPECT

the rear pad, compare it to the front how does it look?

THe front and the rear of the disc, how does it look?

are the discs worn evenly ? or have they got a lip towards the inner edge?

Rotate the disc, does it fit firm against the hub (without the caliper the disc will wobble, but what you are looking for is flatness of fitting against the hub)

check the sliding pins, pull them out, are they able to move freely? clean and regrease and refit.

Look at the caliper, the piston is the seal that hides the piston sides ok?

Wind the piston back in with the g clamp, does it move back in ok?

Check pad shims, reseat the front pad does it sit in correct or wobble about?

maybe even look at installing the pads without the shims.

TIP

if you get your mucky hands everwhere on the discs and the pads dont fear use the brake cleaner / carb cleaner fluid, spray it on the disc or the pad and it will clean it for you!

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Now I have seen this before,

Its where the inner edges of the discs wear quicker than the outer edges. This causes a dip in the disc, the pads drag into this dip.

and two main causes

1- wrong sets of discs and pads.

2- badly maintained calipers and brake system fluid has become guoo

one of the odd ones i have seen with non genuine pads is the shims that they supply dont really fit, they are two springy maybe its cuases the pads to get stuck ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

It sure sounds like a real mystery.

If it was me I would want to get in there myself and do some basic checks on the basic parts, the pads, the sliders and the caliper piston to ensure they are moving freely.

Having said that when I got my rolla a couple of the sliders were semi seized but it did not cause any real problem / binding / overheating.

Also wonder if something is not the right size and so binding and getting hot and binding even more, yet freeing off when cool ?

A possible way to check things, though I do not know how exactly it could be done, would be to disconnect the brake line to that wheel and then run the engine/ front axle say on a suitable garages ramp and see if the brake overheats / binds.

Perhaps Cmia can suggest how to do that, as he seem to know his stuff.

ps CMia, great tip about those Dyes for finding a fluid leaks in that other post, never knew of them.

Generally you can always service the caliper as long as you can remove the slider out without snapping the bolt it should be fine. A long dremel with a tiny sanding block does wonders... the problem is time.

It can take time do it correctly, its time the mechanics dont want to spend.

Further to you post about unplugging the brake line I have never done that however lots of people like to charge for work that they have not done.

I would like the OP to check the colour of the brake fluid, it should be a clear gold colour, if he has some tools maybe even undo the caliper nipple attach a pipe, have a small disposable cup and press the brake pedal down alittle and see what colour fluid comes out.

I can only think of gunk stuck in the entire brake system or green guoo as I call it.

You can generally use the dye stuff on the cooling system as it recycles back around.On a brake system its harder to use, you will need to drain the entire system, you can get "blue" brake fluid for this job.

[buzf355]

Hi All,

CMIA Questions

1. Brake pedal feels like it has the usual depth. Approximately 1.5 - 2 inches before I feel the brakes biting. A further max 1.5 - 2 inches for the brakes to be fully on. Whilst holding the pedal down, there is no further movement (i.e. no brake pedal creep) which leads to the logical conclusion that the Master Cylinder appears to be ok

2. Last week I jacked the car up to check for the wheels spinning freely whilst hot. They appeared to be move freely. I'll try this again on a few occasions during the coming week.

3. The shims are replacement ones that came with the Apec pads on the front and the original ones on the rear if I recall correctly.

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You're right about the time that mechanics don't want to spend on doing things 100% correctly. I can understand why, but I guess this possibly leads to issues later down the line.

As I have a reasonably good understanding of the mechanical aspect, I think I'll follow up on the suggestion to get dirty myself!

I'm in the process of getting all my tools together and have noted all the inspections the CMIA has suggested.

I have a few theories which I need to test when I can inspect.

Meanwhile, I'll monitor the situation and jack the car up to continue checking for free wheel rotation.

I'll get back to you guys in a few weeks, after monitoring/inspecting the situation.

Your comments and suggestions are very valuable. Thank you all.

Just out of curiosity, what, if any, brand of aftermarket discs/pads would you recommend for the 'rolla?

[oldcodger]

Hi,

It would seem the best way forward is to check things yourself but having read your posts again a few more question arise that may have some relevance.

You say the discs and pads were originally changed in July 2012 - why , just normal wear and tear or the binding problem ?

Have long before that date have you had the car, ie could it be a fault on it when you bought it a little earlier ?

If you had no binding problem before that change it does kind of point towards something with the discs or pads.

Believe the 1.8 corollas do use a larger diameter disc on the front, wonder if you could have fitted them in error ?

Also for the correct size discs 255mm in diameter there are 2 sizes of pads dependant on the make of the braking system.

Do you know what type yours was, its the caliper thats the key part.

Would assume its not possible to physically fit the wrong type or caliper, discs, pads ?

Although its not a problem I have had as such, but something you have never mentioned, is that when driving you do not say you have experienced any pulling of the steering to one side; would have thought if just one wheel was braking it would pull the steering to one side ?

Also seems strange that you test the hot wheel but cannot find and pads binding ?

Possibly if you move the wheel backwards its freeing off the pads ?

Has any check been done on the hub bearing, could that be running hot /tight ?

Any hint of uneven front tyre wear ?

Picture shows pads for my 1.6 but if yours is the 2002+ facelift model believe they are the same for the 1.4 or 1.6

[buzf355]

Hi Oldcodger,

In answer to your questions:

1. I bought the vehicle in January 2012, at which point the brakes were still on the original set. The more I drove the car, the more I noticed the sound of brake squeal. The replacement in July 2012 was due to the discs/pads reaching the end of their life, which I assumed would also resolve the brake squeal (as I had assumed this was the wear indicator on the discs). On replacing the discs and pads with the new ones, brake squeal sound re-appeared. My mechanic stripped and cleaned the brake components again and re-assembled. Fine for some time, but re-appeared again. This lead to eventually the replacement calipers.

Therefore, it is quite possible a problem could've been present before buying the car.

2. The discs I believe are 255mm diameter. The mechanic originally bought the wrong ones (275mm) which I believe were for the 1.6 or 1.8, which indeed are physically impossible to fit. The pads are also the correct ones also I believe. Your are absolutely right, there are 2 braking systems; Aisin and Lucas. The braking system on mine is a lucas one. The pads you showed in the picture are the same I believe.

3. No checks have been done on the hub bearing as of yet.

My 'rolla is a 2004 E12 facelift model (with body coloured radiator grill) FYI.

Steering currently pulls to the left but not by a great deal. No uneven tire wear that I can see.

Your suggestion that moving the wheel back frees up the binding seems quite sensible too. I have suspected this, but since the occurrence of the issue doesn't appear to be consistent, it's harder to pin down.

Here's my theories:

1. The previous owner had the car in storage for sometime before I bought it, as it was his second car. Service book doesn't appear to mention any brake fluid changes so I assume worst case that it wasn't changed. Although I have flushed the system at least once during my ownership, I suspect I may possible have some "Green Goo" in the system as CMIA mentions. If this is the case, how may I purge this from the system? Would a pressure bleed resolve this?

2. Since the problem with the calipers appears to have existed before I changed discs/pads, I suspect the accelerated wear from the sticking calipers prior to changing them, which has possibly caused a dip into the disc. CMIA mentions this above also.

Until I can do a proper inspection, these remain unproven, but my gut feeling is that I may have elements of both. I may however of course be wrong. Getting dirty is the best I think!

[oldcodger]

Hi,

From what you describe it does sound like its an old problem from before you got the car.

Never seen brake fluid turn to goo, but being as you have had the fluid changed /bled a few times I would think your mechanic would have spotted such a problem.

I use a Gunson power brake bleeder but would not say its pressure is that strong, nothing like the force of the brake pedal.

As far as I know your 1.4 has the same brakes as my 2006 1.6.

Two remaining things come to my mind.

The shims you mention, on mine its a single round one just a bit bigger than the caliper piston; it has three lugs which clip inside the piston , are your like this or as some models with two large shims like this pic shows ?

Also wonder if that disc has been checked for run out ?

As you have had 2 sets of discs do wonder if something like the hub may actually be out ?

Perhaps a layer of rust on the hub pushing the disc out.

Might be a bit difficult to measure on used discs.

[buzf355]

Hi Guys!

Sorry. I've been off the radar for a few days.

Oldcodger, in answer to your questions:

1. The shims are the single round type that clip into the caliper piston

2. Quite possibly run-out. I guess a good inspection is in need to try and check this. All depends on how much rust is on the wheel hubs when I remove them.

CMIA, you mentioned "poorly maintained calipers" that causes fluid to turn gooey. Other than keeping the brake fluid fresh and free from contaminants, what other maintenance would you recommend on calipers?

Incidentally, FYI i did a long run in the car this week and what I found was that the wheels were reasonably free to begin with. After the long journey, same temperature differential as I described in my original post, but the more I drove, the more the symptoms of "brake bind" were present.

In a nutshell, I think what is happening is, something is causing the pistons to not fully release. So the more I drive, the more the brakes bind (or at least in the front driver's side), causing the disc(s) to heat up more and expand, compounding the problem.

I intend to take a proper look at the issue next week. I'll take a few photos of the discs. However, I have noticed that there are some grooves in the front discs where the pads may drag, potentially causing/contributing to the issue.

Thanks again guys

[oldcodger]

Hi,

Sounds like your brakes are the same as mine then.

There used to be a really good video/ pics of a pad change in this forum but the site has been removed.

However there are plenty of ytubes guide you, though unlike some take care not to hit your brake pipes or abs sensor wires !

The Haynes manual 2002-2006 Corolla manual is good -online or from Halfords etc.

As well as a few decent spanners. you will need a can of spray of Brake cleaner, a tube of copper grease and a small tube of either Red grease or silicone grease for the brake slider pins ( both do not affect the rubber parts).

A large G clamp and some pieces of wood for carefully pushing the piston back, can be done by hand if strong.

Also some tippex or marker pen to mark all the bolts and parts your remove so you can be sure of the correct order.

Mark the bolts head and body so you can be sure it do back up tightly, as its not that easy to fit a torque wrench to some bolts under the wing.

As already said, do not rely on a single jack, use an axle stand because if the jack slips off etc you can have serious bodily harm!

Checking for a serious disk run out is not hard.

Get something solid, some wood or bricks and use say a pen tip or pencil rigged up on the floor so it touches the outer edge of the disc ( but not the rust ridge).

With the steering wheel locked, wheel off, but the wheel nuts refitted to hold the disc firm, carefully turn the disc/driveshft and see if a gap becomes apparent between the two,

You will see a little bit but anything noticable could mean a problem that needs measuring with feeler gauges or a dial gauge.

(doing it on worn discs not the best way, its really a new fitting check)

As you have not done anything like this before its going to be hard for you to see whats correct and whats not so yes do take and post some pics; I may be doing my 6 month service /brake check this week so might be able to do some first hand comparisons for you.

[Paul507]

Hi just wondered if this issue had been resolved as a have the same problem  an  when cheaked out further there's no brakefluid coming out abs unit to the offside front  but when loosening the other 3 pipes for o /s rear / n/s front/ n/s rear  fluid flows out naturally an help or advise would be appreciated it's a. 54 reg Toyota corolla  diesel 2.0l

[oldcodger]

Hi,

At what point have you disconnected the brake pipes, on the top of the ABS unit or on the Calipers ?

If its not coming out of just one port of he ABS unit, then other than bleeding, think its a replacement unit as not aware its servicable.