Stock Plug In

[dickfineman]

Hi all, just about to get a new Plug in in Sky Blue with Protection Pack. My salesman said there are many in stock already in the country...can get it in about 2 weeks. I managed to get 3k off the price, so not much more than a new T Spirit with the OLEV Government grant aswell ! Also got 19k for my Golf gt.

I want to ask some of you who have recently had a new Prius or Plug in....should i be wary of a ' stock ' Plug in which could have been over here in storage for a year or more ? Also, will the tyres and the factory-filled oil be ok when delivered.

Many thanks for your replies.

Peter.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Prius is made in and imported from Japan, so, unlike the European manufactured models, Toyota, depending on when shipments have come in, will usually have numbers in stock. That is normal.

Manufacturers have moved away from the scenario of the 1970's and 1980's, where cars were left in stock for many months or, on occasion years.

If you want to know the manufacturing date of your specific car, your dealer should be able to identify that for you before delivery, and if you're not happy with the answer, say so.

The oil will be factory filled.

[dickfineman]

Many thanks Frosty. I will check date of manufacture before signing. Let you know how i get on in the next week or so. One last quick question...can't the factory-filled oil start to degrade simply with time...just by sitting in the engine for a few months maybe ? I only ask, since even if a car only does say 2000 miles in a year...you are still advised to change the oil.

Many thanks,

Peter.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I'd say double check the tyre pressures. They make a big difference to economy. I've found even a few psi below recommended drops the mpg's.

Enjoy your new car. Sounds like you got a cracking deal though - have you seen how much they're demanding second hand? I wanted a PIP but thought they were just too expensive for me.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Think you have nothing to worry about about as regards the oil. Currently the Rav4, the Prius, Prius Plug-in, Prius+, IQ, and (I think) the Landcruiser are all Japanese-built for the UK market, and I've not seen any issues re oil degradation on these forums.

As regards the service intervals, for Toyota these are 12 months or 10,000 miles, whichever comes first. Most other manufacturers have similar intervals which are either governed by age or mileage.

[dickfineman]

Thanks to all for your prompt replies....will let you know how i get on soon. With regards the oil, i have no problems, since ive had a Gen 2 and 3 a few years ago. What i meant was...if a car is shipped over from Japan and spends say 6 months in storage before it is sold, with only 5 miles on the clock, is it possible that the factory filled oil can degrade a little even before a customer starts using the car when bought ? Apologies if this is what you've responded to already. Thanks to Frosty and Grumpy.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Unlikely. The service interval is 12 months but modern synthetic oil can last much much longer than that. Toyota are very conservative with their oil change interval. It's not unknown for some manufacturers to have 18,000 miles/24 month change intervals. So sitting on a dock for 6 months and then being driven for an additional 12 is hardly going to affect it. Also, some say the first oil has extra protection in. On an alternative some owners like to change the oil within 1,000 miles like was suggested in the 1970's, others say to leave it in as the extra protection additives are there to help flush all the manufacturing debray.

Your call but I don't think there's much to worry about.

[dickfineman]

I think that sounds ok...thanks for the feedback, Grumpy.

Peter.

[dickfineman]

A quick update: I asked my salesman to obtain the VIN of the stock Plug in which they have at one of their depots....so i can verify the year of manufacture and when it was shipped. The salesman seems a bit clueless...not heard from him for few days. So i called the Sales Manager who took control and informed me that there are currently 186 Plug ins in depots in the UK awaiting a sale !!

He is now going to source the newest, probably a 2014 model in Sky Blue with Protection Pack. I managed to get £2300 dealership discount, £1000 finance contribution to add to the £5000 olev grant. Brings it down to price of a T Spirit.

Just beware of the " age " of the car that is already in stock in the country and seems very enticing because delivery is fast.

Peter.

[dickfineman]

Just looking for some opinions...turns out there are 136 Plug in Prius models in Sky Blue alone in depots around the UK !! And all of these and the other colours were shipped over between August and December 2012 ! Toyota have stopped taking new factory orders on the Plug in since the new model is due out in 6-12 months.

What are your opinions on buying a car from stock that is already at least 18 months " old " ? Given that i have secured a very good discount. Many thanks for any helpfull replies in advance.

Peter.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

If you're really really really worried, get the dealer to change the oil when you buy it. £60 oil change = peace of mind.

I'd be more worried about the HV Battery sitting there slowly deteriorating and the 12v going totally flat, than the engine sitting in unused fully synthetic oil.

[johalareewi]

Just looking for some opinions...turns out there are 136 Plug in Prius models in Sky Blue alone in depots around the UK !! And all of these and the other colours were shipped over between August and December 2012 ! Toyota have stopped taking new factory orders on the Plug in since the new model is due out in 6-12 months.

Mr T take note.

Hiking the plugin price by £5k when the government grant was announced doesn't seem to be such a smart move in hindsight.

Perhaps you need to to have massive plug in sale? Say £10k off the list price plus the £5k grant so a plugin becomes cheaper than a normal prius. Should shift a few and help clear the old stock.

Also 10000 lines.

Government grants are for the customer to encourage uptake of new tech. They are not a licence to up the prices.

[Chris Dance]

I would probably buy a PIP if like johalareewi has pointed out the price was reduced. My biggest moan is the lack of a spare wheel. A mate has just bought a new Yaris; it has no spare wheel but he can buy one with jack etc for £90. He was told by the salesman that no new Toyota models will have spare wheels!! Car makers diregard public opinion with regard to these matters so reducing the price of the PIP will not happen.

[IanIanIanIan]

My PiP had no spare but it does have a jack (it is needed to use the supplied gunk).

A visit to a scrap yard supplied a completely unused space-saver spare for £20.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The PIP is and always was way overpriced. As Johalareewi stated, Toyota UK cynically upped the price by £5,000 to then take advantage of the Government £5,000 grant. Want proof? Just check out and convert the price of the US PIP and base Prius and convert the currencies, allow import duty at 10% and 20% vat. You'll find the base Prius 3 (our t3) matches fine (give or take a few quid), but the PIP is about £5k off. Funny that.

The PIP isn't anything special. It does 10-15 miles on a 5 kwh Battery but is only a couple grand shy of the Ampera which will go 30-50 miles on EV and actually more expensive than the newly released Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV that does 20-30 miles on EV, goes faster, has more room and more spec.

I get the impression that Toyota UK didn't quite know what they had and overpriced it OR did know exactly what they had and didn't want to sell more than a handful literally so they could comply with average fuel economy stats and tick a few boxes.

Just think how different the EV or PHEV world could have been if Toyota sold it at £21,000 (£26,000- £5,000 grant)? People could then decide whether to pay a little more and get a 'normal' hybrid Prius or pay a little less but take a punt on those new fangled plug in ones. That's what the £5k grant was all about, making such cars much more affordable allowing people to take a chance and kick start the industry. I would have got one at that price.

http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/outlander/explore-phev.aspx

Shame. Greed got in the way and now the PIP remains unsold, unloved and overtaken by the competition.

[dickfineman]

Thanks for all your replies...i agree with everything you all said. I negotiated a great deal on the face of it....but dig deeper and its not that great. Seems the Plug in is " Over-priced and over here " but not going anywhere... Like US Army in 1944 ! I'm glad i didnt put down a deposit...wait and see what the new Plug in holds next year.

Peter.

[PeteB]

Last week I had a test drive on the BMW i3 electric car with "range extender" (tiny 2 cylinder motorbike engined generator). It doesn't come cheap either, but the driving experience was amazing (if there's interest I'll post some notes that I did for another group).

Even at £32k (after £5k grant) for a model that included pre-crash safety system and radar controlled cruise control, I would have ordered one on the spot but for the fact that it too has no spare wheel. And buying one separately (£1100!) would just over half fill the boot. This is the first car in over ¼ million miles and 12 years of Hybrid driving to come close to tempting me away from a Prius.

Prius/Hybrid owners may find it harder to get used to than people not used to routinely lifting off the accelerator early as the accelerator on the BMW is also the brake pedal - reducing pressure on the pedal generates regenerative braking dramatically stronger than anything a Prius can muster, and will bring it to a complete stop without using the main brake pedal unless you need to stop very quickly (no creep either!). After about half an hour of practice this felt like it should always have been like this (but would need care on a slippery ice or snow covered surface).

The only other thing I didn't like was the 19" wheels (same size as the biggest Lexus long wheel base LS saloon!) on a car the size of a Yaris - the salesman pointed them out with pride, while I thought they just ;looked plain silly on a car this size. Probably hurts the EV range too, and is likely another reason there's no spare.

[barrycoll]

I, for one, would like to read your i3 experiences, please Pete......fascinating car, but maybe the new e-Golf will be similar

[PeteB]

I, for one, would like to read your i3 experiences, please Pete......fascinating car, but maybe the new e-Golf will be similar

Hi barry - here it is!

Here is a summary of my thoughts from a test drive today (30 April 2014) in a BMW i3 all electric car with range extender. It’s the first car since 2002 to tempt me to consider switching from the Prius. The salesman came with me and I covered just over 20 miles on a range of roads, from country lanes to 70 mph dual carriageways.

The Battery was about 2/3 full when we started, and the small 1.9 gallon petrol tank showed completely full. The display showed an anticipated range on electric, another for petrol, and one for total range combined (sadly, I didn’t note them). Both displays were very clear even in the quite bright sunlight we had for part of the drive. I never felt the need to look for any adjustment, but I did miss the Heads Up Display. The centrally mounted info/SatNav/entertainment display was the optional extra larger version with some extra features - very impressive display quality. It’s not touch screen, but controlled by a sort of joystick and buttons in the centre armrest.

Walking up to the to the car the first thing I noticed was the 19” wheels, something the salesman pointed out with great pride. In my humble opinion, on such a small car they looked plain silly, and I understand tyres are £140 apiece! I worried they would give a harsh ride and be noisy, but those fears were unfounded. Apart from that I liked the appearance and it had a quality look to the finish. Unlike the Yaris, large wheels did the turning circle no harm at all, which was very impressive - almost as good as a Gen 1 Prius, which is saying something.

Getting in I found the high seats a little tricky due to some stiff joints, but once inside found the seats very comfortable. The steering wheel is adjustable for reach and rake, and the mirrors fold and open without needing the power on. Holding the lock button on the remote will make them fold in too.

It does have only two rear seats, but they are a generous size. The “suicide” rear doors are quite short, so it’s necessary to open both front and rear doors to access the back - it might be tedious to some if you frequently had to let people in or out of the back (kids taxi, for example). Rear legroom is just adequate, and would need some compromise with front occupants if four tall adults were onboard. The boot wasn’t too bad for a car this size, and there’s a small amount of storage under the bonnet, where the charging cables also live. I had hoped the spare wheel would live there, but sadly there isn’t one, and with such big wheels/tyres, finding somewhere to put one is a no no unless you’re happy to lose around half the boot (and £1100). There were four useful expanding straps in the boot to stop luggage rolling around though - full marks.

The on-off button works just like the Prius in combination with the service brake pedal, but it’s mounted on the drive selector pod on the right of the steering column. When ‘on’ the word “Ready” appears on the dash too, but in grey. Unlike the Prius, there's no possibility of the engine starting at this point. Cruise control buttons are on the left steering wheel spoke, and it displays the set speed on the dash - I like! Heating is done by an electric heat pump.

The drive selector is a chunky rotary knob which you rotate to R, N or D, and there’s a “P” button on the pod for Park. It springs back to a central position once the direction is selected. The parking brake is an electric switch behind the centre armrest, but automatically releases if you press the accelerator. There is no creep, and the car does not roll forward or backwards on a gentle incline. Touching the accelerator, the car moves smoothly away, and is very brisk, although the claimed 0-62 in 7.9 seconds (7.2 on the electric only version) didn’t feel as much faster than the Prius as I’d expected, but was very quiet.

I was prepared for the significant deceleration that occurs on releasing the accelerator as I’d seen much comment about it on YouTube, but it took me about half an hour to sort of get used to it - you hardly ever need to use the brake pedal, but years of training myself to come off the accelerator very early in the Prius was not a good idea in an i3! [see update below] However, I think it works really well, once you master the technique of easing back on the pedal slowly, just as you ease it down to accelerate economically. The regenerative braking that results from backing off the pedal is much stronger than a Prius is capable of (but then, with its carbon fibre body, this is a light car).

The car rode and handled extremely well - I’d say the ride quality is better than a Gen 3 Prius on 15” wheels and much better than a Gen 2 or a Gen 3 on 17” rims. In other words about as good as a Gen 1 Prius.! I’m getting too old to explore extremes of handling, but it felt very surefooted on the twisty Norfolk lanes. All the expected boxes were ticked for ABS, traction control and stability program. The composite body felt very stiff, with no creaks, rattles or shake. It really did feel a quality car, and I like the interior materials more than a Gen 2 or 3 Prius, but of course taste is a very personal thing.

The other trick I missed was asking for the range extender to be switched on manually (kicked myself all the way home), so I didn’t get to hear how much noise it made. Certainly, on the professional reviews I’ve read the reviewers said it was pretty quiet. The salesman went to great lengths to explain the rage extender was intended to be an antidote to range anxiety and a “get out of jail free” card (his words) if you muck it up. They would not recommend the car to anyone who expected to use it most days. Apparently, you can’t manually select it until the Battery is below 80% SOC, then you can switch it on to preserve charge for later (say a city). Once it gets very low (6 or 7% I think) it comes on and stays on. If you want to go much above 70 mph, it will still take a bit of power from the Battery too, as the generator on its own can’t handle that.

The test car had the second (out of four) grades of interior trim (£1000 extra) plus a park assist feature, which adds front sensors to the standard rear ones plus a rear camera (complete with bendy lines like some Prius used to have). It also includes a self park feature, which I didn’t try.

If you want to be able to fast charge, you need to order a factory fit option for £3-400 extra.

If it had a spare wheel (even a space saver) I’d have ordered one (sorry Toyota), but now I have some serious thinking to do. My heart wants one, but my head remembers too many instances of punctures where a can of gunk just wouldn’t have done it (search Toyota Owners Club Forum for the PlugIn Prius owner who got such a puncture 2-3 miles from home on a Friday night, and waited 2-3 hours for the AA to transport him home, then needed a taxi ride [each way] with his wheel the next day to get a new tyre!).

The spec he priced up for me came to (wait for it!) £32,173.99 on the road, including 5 years servicing and the government £5,000 grant.

That included the 2nd from cheapest interior trim (didn't really want that but have to have it to get the collision avoidance package which includes radar controlled cruise control).

If you went mad with the options, it could easily go into the £40k or even £50k territory.

It makes absolutely no financial sense, but boy did it put a smile on my face, just like the Prius has for the last 12 years / ¼ million miles. And the thought of being able to do all my driving apart from one or two days a month without visiting a petrol station, or even topping up during the day as I would in a Prius PlugIn is really appealing. If I ever got to the stage where I had my own wind turbine or solar panels, it would be really green too.

[update] the severe regen braking on lifting off the throttle cannot be switched off - if you're on snow or ice, you've only got to forget once and you may end up simulating a handbrake turn!

Edited September 11, 2014 by PeteB

[johalareewi]

The salesman went to great lengths to explain the rage extender was intended to be an antidote to range anxiety...

:eek: :eek:

[DMGbus]

A better value PHEV?

A range-extended electric vehicle about to go on sale in the UK is Mitsubishi Outlander plug in hybrid.

Starting price less than £29,000 after grant deducted.

Unlike the Volt, Ampera and i3 this latest Mitsubishi is a 5 seater (like the Plug In Prius). It might even have (or have space for) a spare wheel. A big plus is a claimed 32 miles Battery electric range - even if in the real world this is only 25 miles this is way ahead of the Plug In Prius (claimed 15.5 miles, real world 9 to 14 miles Battery range). There are, however some downsides with the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV - larger vehicle so parking issues and it seems that the Mitsubishi might have much poorer mpg on long trips (32 mpg I think, whereas Plug In Prius can achieve over 70 mpg on long trips).

[Peter2673]

Interesting. My July 2012 plug in is little older than a newly registered one.

One of my concerns with my car is that if the new model plug in has a 25 mile ev range, my car will suddenly be a dinosaur, but at least I'll have had a good 3 years use out of it. I'd be wary of buying a new one now for that reason, quite apart from the age issue.

Pete

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The disadvantage of being a....oh what's the word? It's not guinea pig, erm it's early adopter.

The EV world is changing and rapidly. What was acceptable a year ago is old hat now. Wait until the 300 mile £50,000 Tesla S starts hitting the market, or their next car that's going to be around the £30k mark.

The PIP was always meant to be a stop gap product. The Battery is only a smidgen over 5kwh compared to 1.5 kwh of the traditional Prius. The PIP was a good way to show people that EVs or plug in's aren't scarey. I think Toyota just wanted to be one of the first, but now cars like the Mitsubishi Outlander which costs the same as the PIP just show how quickly things are changing.

The good thing is that all these first generation cars will be slipping into the second hand market and opening more people up to electric motoring. Just think of the slow improvement in city air. If you're concerned about electricity production pollution, then watch this;

Bet you didn't know it took that much electricity to refine a gallon of petrol eh? The electricity to refine one gallon of petrol (4.5 kwh) can move an electric car a good 10 miles or so, before taking into account all the costs and pollution extracting the oil. The old argument of "oh the electric grid would fail if we all had electric cars" or "we'd have to build lots of new power stations if electric cars become common place" are all wrong.

Elon Musk said, and I like this, "We'd have plenty of electricity for electric cars if we just stopped refining oil". So true. Next time you pass a refinery, just look at the massive electricity pylons feeding into it.

[timberwolf]

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

A car powered by a gallon of petrol could go 50 miles.

If you removed that one car and the processing of 1 gallon of petrol, you can only go 10 miles in the electric car with the energy saved.

To go 50 miles in the electric car you would have to remove many more petrol cars.

In other the words, the claim that there is plenty of electricity if we stopped refining oil would seem to be false based on the information given so far. The electricity used in refining petrol doesn't result in the electrical energy being stored in the petrol, and if you stopped refining the petrol you've lost 40 miles of energy (50 miles - 10 miles of electric to process it) that was locked up in oil and instead spent the electricity to go 10 miles.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

It could indeed, burning something that can only be used once and causes pollution in cities, causes deaths, causes wars, causes pollution etc.

The electricity a refinery uses could power lots of electric cars. It's a fact. Pop down to your local refinery and have a look. Production of oil is a dirty process from start to finish.

Electric cars are not all rosy but they're significantly cleaner from start to finish. It's not just the refinery of petrol/diesel that uses loads of electricity or oil. The trucks moving it about, the drilling, those rigs in the North Sea, the flares off the oil rigs (look at a night view on Google Earth to see the dots of light all over the North Sea) or take a drive to Port Talbot and have a smell, the boats, the pipelines, even the fridges in the petrol station, the pumps, the lights. All of that is significant. How much electricity does a modern Shell petrol station use? Times that by the 1,000 in the country and you could power many cars for that.

But all of that would no longer be needed and the electricity to generate all the above could power cars. Electric cars won't suit everybody but they don't need all the baggage that oil needs. You need power stations (maybe use one that powers one of the refineries that would no longer be needed) but they can be run on clean electric and the whole generation to car is simple and if you have solar, even simpler.

Electric cars only draw 2.2kwh for upto 8 or 10 hours when charging, possibly upto a week of driving. That's nothing. Also, Elon musk (like him or hate him) is no fool. He knows his stuff. Electric cars run on virtually nothing. Even Ecotricity have said they've paid for 500,000 miles of electricity from their chargers for free. When was the last time Shell gave fuel away for free to encourage uptake of a product?