New Toyota Diesels

[guwz]

Ok guys, so we all know that now Toyota are 'using BMW diesel engines' which for now is the 1.6 d-4d in the verso (not sure if there are any other displacements at the moment.) I have a few questions about these engines. Are these engines directly lifted from BMW to Toyota cars with just adding the Toyota Badge like the Ford/PSA do or does Toyota ONLY take the technology and build the engines themselves? And then of course, do you think the Toyota reputation will be effected badly with these engines since BMW are not the most reliable diesel manufacturers out there? because if Toyota inherit those problems it will surely be a disaster. Thanks in advance :)

[FROSTYBALLS]

The agreement covers two engine capacities - the 1.6 litre diesel and the 2.0 litre diesel. So far only the Turkish built Verso has the option of the 1.6 diesel. The Auris and supposedly the Rav4 are also due to have the BMW engines at some stage. See:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/toyota/toyota-verso-16-d-4d-2014-road-test/

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/verso/first-drives/2014-toyota-verso-uk-first-drive-review

[Cyker]

Well that's the question! I've long been worried about the change as BMW diesel engines have a reputation for unreliable turbos, and they tend to be much peakier than the rather more constant torque delivery of the D4D's.

The 1.6 is the more reliable of the BMW diesels tho', from what I hear, and initial reports of the Verso have been pretty favourable so hopefully my worries will be unfounded!

That said, it's still unlikely I'll get another diesel unless they find a way to do away with all the stupid bolt-on emissions control crap that is making them so unreliable compared to older diesels!

[FROSTYBALLS]

Diesels are due to get tighter emission controls under the Euro 6 requirements which start to take effect from January 2015.

[guwz]

@FROSTYBALLS

Thanks for the info mate, but you have any information about the engine built? because if the are lifted straight from BMW they will suck but if they are Toyota built they may be better. And from what I have read, these engines will be only for the european market so they will not be Japan built and that sucks because I always trusted those people lol and tho I am European I trust their engineering more.

@Cyker

Yh, besides turbos, they have problems with injectors and if their engines are abused, they get diesel knock easily. With all these diesel regulations' they are killing diesel engines.

Anyway, I am disappointed with this BMW/Toyota collaboration. Ok the D-4D was a bit underpowered considering European market but at least it wasn't stressed, and that was the secret of the great reliability D-4D has, but I am sure if Toyota had to put their efforts, they could have made a faster and more refined diesel. Toyota are not the same Toyota we had 10-15 years ago. Unfortunately, these days Toyota just make cars without passion and without the will to be unique as they did before, What a shame

[Heidfirst]

I read somewhere that they aren't 100% straight BMW diesels but will be tweaked slightly by Toyota to suit their drivetrains.

Whether they will be built by BMW or built in the Toyota Polish factory that builds the current Toyota diesel I don't know.

However, the cost of investing in a brand new design & tooling for a range of diesels just at the time that it's about to get really hard to meet upcoming legislation would be colossal & may well not ever pay back (petrol hybrid is currently looking like a good call by Toyota) ...

[guwz]

@Heidfirst I agree with you there mate, Toyota's vision is not diesel, it's hybrid anyway and this is all business wise. The real thing I am really worried is because this is going to be a European engine, even Toyota's variants will be Europeans since they won't be made in Japan, and that may cause problems. Anyway, if this project result reliable, it will be a big step forward from Toyota, then the next step will be some refined designs, I'm looking forward as a loyal Toyota fan :)

[FROSTYBALLS]

The BMW sourced four cylinder diesel engines that Toyota will be using, are built by BMW at their Austrian plant. Toyota have designed a new dual mass flywheel and installed their own stop/start system for this engine.

[Uncle Buck]

I honestly think that the diesel as we know it has almost had its chips. It's been extensively developed & now it's being hammered for emissions. This will make them more expensive to run & repair. Hybrids definitely seem to be the future, as pure electrics are still very expensive & totally unusable in the practicality stakes for many of us. A Winter range of less than 75 mls with your lights & heater on ? Hopeless in many outlying areas - so hybrids are the way to go.

[Cyker]

I will miss my gear stick if I ever get one tho' :(

I'm still holding out for a breakthrough that puts diesel back in the running but the only people that have a real hope in finding it are the Germans because everyone else seems to be taking the easy route with petrol!

It made more sense for them to put more effort into the HSD and outsource the derv; The !Removed! have always disliked diesel as it's considered inelegant and also you can't rev them up to the moon like you can with petrol engines so it's a small miracle we even got the D4D's in the first place. They were literally made only for Europe. The diesel Yaris, despite being made in Japan, was never even sold there or in the US!

[guwz]

@Cyker

Yes it is true that !Removed! hate diesels, but it is a bit of a shame too since Toyota made some of the greatest diesels ever. My father has a 1981 Toyota hilux 2.25 diesel, it has over 1 million miles, used everyday and just did engine re-bore 3 years ago. Personally I have petrols and i call them my Sunday ride. But for everyday I prefer getting diesel since it is way more economical and diesel are workhorses. Looks like Germans took the lead in this section because they are making some breathtaking diesel engine, I just hope that new BMW D-4D's bill be as reliable as Toyotas so I can still enjoy a Toyota. I am not tat pessimist about reliability tho. The D-4D's are built in UK not in Japan and they proved really reliable

[Heidfirst]

Toyota has had a diesel plant in Poland since 2005. It's where the 2.2 (& therefore I presume the 2.0 in the same family) comes from.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Toyota engine and engine/transmission plants in Poland manufacture the 2.0 litre and 2.2 litre diesel engines used in the UK-produced Avensis and Auris, and in the Turkey-produced Corolla and Verso.

The BMW 1.6 litre four cylinder diesel engine used in the Toyota Verso is manufactured by BMW in Austria.

The BMW UK plant at Hams Hall produces the 1.6 and 2.0 litre four cylinder petrol engines used by BMW, the 1.6 litre petrol engine used by versions of the Mini, and the new modular 3 cylinder petrol and diesel engines used in the 2014 Mini hatchback.

[Cyker]

@guvw - Yeah, I love the D4D's too :) Most diesels are quite peaky but the D4D has a really flat torque curve which makes it really pleasant to drive :)

I also like the fact that the 1.4 D4D is probably the highest revving diesel engine ever used in a normal car

[guwz]

@Cyker

The highest revving diesel was the Ford Endura D, that engine revved like 6k and it was hell fun, but yes I think on modern day diesels, Toyotas are one of the most revving :)

Anyway guys, what do you recommend as a petrol? Is 1.33 vvti Auris slow? 1.6 v-matic economical? Which is the best petrol engine for an Auris? And are they both super reliable? Thanks :)

[FROSTYBALLS]

People in the Auris club who have the current generation 1.6's generally aren't overly-impressed with the fuel economy. Comparative figures between the 1.6 Auris and it's competitors (Focus, Astra, etc) suggest that the 1.6 Auris is actually one of the better performers for economy.

As regards the 1.33, I've had two - a 59 plate first generation and a 12 plate first generation facelift. Compared to the 2006 1.4 Corolla I had before, power-wise it is similar, slightly slower, but economy better. With my 59 reg had up to 48mpg on trips to Skye - two people, rear seats folded forwards and full load of luggage. Isn't embarrassed on the motorway though sometimes have to change down to fifth for inclines - cruises nicely at 70-85.

Only issue I had with the 59 reg in the three years I had it was a broken dashboard cupholder - fixed under warranty.