Considering An Avensis D4D

[mar.eng]

I am new to this forum as I am considering buy a new Avensis diesel to replace my Rover 45 diesel that has given sterling service and never let me down in 14 years and 100,000 miles.

I hope to be able to run this next car until I cannot drive any more, say 20+ years .

Now the specs look ok, but are they any good and what are Toyota garages like.

The Rover I maintained myself after the 1st 3 years of free servicing and hope to do so with this for as long as I can.

If you can see my photo, that's my background from my early years.

What sort of consumption do you get on everyday mixed driving using the litres bought and mileage to calculate, not the gizmo on the dash.

Do they have any weak points to look out for?

The 5 year guarentee from Toyota, do you have to have them service it to maintain it?

I know dealerships like to find something to charge you for even if it is not broken?

I am also looking at the Insignia , Mazda 6, MG6 Magnette all diesel.

[Raistlin]

Hi, Welcome to the club... Enjoy

Moved to the Avensis club

[Devon Aygo]

Toyota dealers are generally good and tend to score well in customer satisfaction surveys and all servicing and common repairs are covered by a fixed price promise ( see toyota.co.uk ) Cars with 5 year warranty do not have to be serviced with Toyota but must be serviced according to Toyota recommendations using OE quality parts and correct oils at a VAT registered garage, self serving is not accepted.

Early 2.0 1CD cambelt diesel engines are generally strong

2005-2009 2.0 1AD and 2.2 2AD cam chain engine can suffer head gasket & oil consumption issues

Late 2009> 2.0 1AD and 2.2 2AD are again generally strong with the previous h/gasket and oil consumption issues cured

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

As regards servicing during the five year/100,000 mile new car warranty, Block Exemption regulations allow non-franchise garages to service the cars and maintain the warranty provided that the manufacturer specifications for the service regime and parts are met or exceeded. Owners who use non-Toyota garages for servicing often use Toyota parts to ensure that the parts meet Toyota specs. It will be down to the owners to maintain adequate records that the service and parts specifications are met.

Where a vehicle has either an extended warranty, an approved used warranty or a third party warranty, Block Exemption doesn't apply to these warranties, and the company managing the warranty can stipulate where the vehicle is serviced.

The drawbacks with using a non-franchised garage are:

# should the car require an out of warranty repair where the owner seeks a goodwill contribution from the manufacturer, a goodwill contribution would likely be refused as the vehicles had been serviced outside the appropriate dealer network. This applies to the majority of manufacturers, not only Toyota.

# non-franchised garages may not have access to the manufacturer issued service bulletins, etc, so there may be some operations that non-franchised garages are not able to do.

Toyotas need servicing every 12 months or 10,000 miles - whichever occurs first. Toyota operate a Fixed Price Service scheme - see http://www.toyota.co.uk/service-and-maintenance/car-servicing

As regards the Vauxhall Lifetime Warranty be aware that as the vehicles gets older, Vauxhall may decide that repairs are uneconomic, and pay an agreed value for the vehicle - see part of their terms and conditions below:

"Vauxhall at its discretion may elect to agree with the owner a value for the vehicle in case the parts and labour cost of repair exceeds the economic value of the vehicle, or in case the parts are no longer available."

Have you also considered the Hyundai i40 (five year unlimited mileage warranty) and the Kia Optima (seven year/100,000 mile warranty).

[Heidfirst]

I wouldn't expect any mainstream modern turbodiesel to last 20+ years (& that's assuming that you are still allowed to run one in 20+ years time).

They are complicated & frankly, the manufacturers don't want them to last 20+ years.

Who knows what we will be using in 20+ years.

[mar.eng]

Thank you gentlemen for your info on servicing & warranty.

I will have a read and save the article.

No I wasn't planning on looking at Kia or Huyndai,Skoda and the like as they are probably the main manufactures engines and body shells from 5 years ago, same as when they exported the jigs of the Morris Oxford to India.

Now is a Mazda a Ford rebadged?

I don't see why a diesel would not last 20+ years, my R45 is 14 years old and given an oil & filter change and EGR clean every 12K there is no reason why it shouldn't. I have heard many an owner saying he has 250K on the clock, but they need a good long hot run occassionaly to blow the carbon out.

It would appear looking at several manufacturers mpg and CO2 emissions that diesels easily perform better than petrol, so maybe petrol willl be phased out. As for Hybrids there is still a lot of research to be done for them to replace straight petrol or diesel engines.

With all this hype about Hybrids they are no more economical than a diesel, a Battery only lasts 15 miles at best and the plug in jobs still cause pollution from power stations be it nuclear waste or a acid rain.

[mar.eng]

Just read the service lists, there is nothing on there that should justify such exhorbitent prices that are being charged. To change the Oil & Filter which is about all they do costs about £30.

Toyota trained technicians( and this goes for all manufacturers dealerships and garages generally), aka car mechanics, any car mechanic should be able to service & repair any make of car as they are all the same. Having serviced my own cars, petrol and diesel for the last 40 years without "manufacturers training" also rebuilt the engines on several cars in my youth and being responsible for twelve cylinder versions of the picture on my avatar plus much more complex supporting plant, rebuilt and serviced fuel injectors as an apprentice and fuel valves and pumps on large diesels, I feel I am more than qualified to service my own car than the average car mechanic. How many mechanics see the inside of an engine on a weekly basis, perhaps none, all they seem to do is fit the odd spare part( whether it is required or not, just to keep the bonus up), very little skilled diagnosis without the use of a computer.

Normally failures of parts for warranty are due to design/manufacturing defects as long as a car is driven sensibly and levels checked on a weekly basis.

The fitting of a Fram/Cooper oil/air or Fuel filter rather than a 'Toyota' badged one at twice the price sounds like a rip off. After all Toyota/Honda/ Motor manufacturers generally do not make 75% of the parts fitted to the car but buy them in with their name on. How many cars have somebody elses engine and gearbox? Many, perhaps all have at least one engine they buy in.

[mar.eng]

Lee( Devon Aygo) mentioned some weak points on pre 2010 Avensis Diesels. Has the problem been sorted out on post 2012 models and particularly any problem cropped up on 2014 models, those of you that do high mileage.Redaing between the lines it sound as if they have changed from a timing chain back tyo the infernal belts, whereas a chain is much stronger, is lubricated, self tensioned and less likely to fail than a belt and doesn't need changing, in fact the car goes to scrap still with the original engine chain.

Just an interesting point in the registration process.
It asks you how many wheels are there on a car. Well I counted 7. 4 road wheels, a spare wheel, a steering wheel and a flywheel (sometimes two of those as well, making it 8) and there may well be others. Not the best of questions, obviously the person who came up with that didn't know anything about cars. On several of the words which you had to retype they were indistinguishable, normally the one on the left of the screen.

[mar.eng]

They are complicated & frankly, the manufacturers don't want them to last 20+ years.

What's complicated about a diesel engine or a petrol engine for that matter, they have hardly changed since they were first invented, perhaps they have become simpler , with fewer moving parts, no pushrods for a start, so no tappetts to have to keep adjusting, no distributors that need new points fitted every 5K and caps that crack, almost lifetime spark plugs, 10,000 mile servicing not 3000.

It is the quality of the mechanics that is the problem not the engine. The whole idea of self service is to keep the car out of the hands of garages so it does last.

A car only wears when it is being driven, so why does it need to be serviced every year if you do not drive 10,000 miles a year? Is this so the garages rip you off each year, just ticking boxes.As a Marine Engineer I used to log all running hours of all the engines on a ship. When certain hours came up then items were attended to, but if an engine was not used as much then it was not serviced as frequently on a calandar basis as another one. The trend now is not even to service machinery by hours run but by vibration, infra -red signatures, oil condition analysis and other condition monitoring methods.

To use an old phrase " Why repair it if it isn't broken".

Why do cars need indicator lights to inform the driver it needs servicing, they have mileometers, cannot people see or count.

[Heidfirst]

Lee( Devon Aygo) mentioned some weak points on pre 2010 Avensis Diesels. Has the problem been sorted out on post 2012 models and particularly any problem cropped up on 2014 models, those of you that do high mileage.Redaing between the lines it sound as if they have changed from a timing chain back tyo the infernal belts, whereas a chain is much stronger, is lubricated, self tensioned and less likely to fail than a belt and doesn't need changing, in fact the car goes to scrap still with the original engine chain.

"Late 2009> 2.0 1AD and 2.2 2AD are again generally strong with the previous h/gasket and oil consumption issues cured"

Last time that I checked 2012 & 2014 came after 2009 ... ;)

They are still chain-driven.

A modern turbo-diesel is somewhat different from your 14 year old R45 (especially if it has the 1.9 normally aspirated XUD) same as Toyota & VW's older diesels were essentially bulletproof compared to their current ones.

They now use a high pressure common rail injection system, of course turbocharged & they have a pile of emission control equipment strapped to them.

Turbos , injectors, DMFs & DPFs can all fail & who knows if parts will be available in 20+ years?

The next round of Euro emissions requirements is forecast to make it very hard for new production diesels to meet without very high costs & petrols are improving in efficiency & have lower particulates than diesels. Toyota's hybrid solution is looking a better one than diesel atm.

If you are planning on doing ~12000 miles p.a. or less & keeping the car for 20 years I would personally buy a 1.8 petrol.

[Cyker]

Even modern diesels could theoretically run up to 20+ years if they are looked after, but know that these ain't like the virtually indestructible heavy steel diesels of old; Modern ones are mostly aluminium alloy with steel cylinder liners and aren't as strong. We've had a few cases of the cylinders cracking in the first gen chain-cam 2.2D4Ds when abused which would be unthinkable in an old steel block.

That isn't an issue now, but there are other annoying things like the emissions control garbage, esp. the EGR and DPF, which are the achilles heel in modern diesel reliability

You sound like you know how to look after an engine so it should be fine :)

As for the servicing interval, I feel it's more important to do regular oil changes with the chain-cam D4Ds, compared to belted cams, to keep the chain healthy; If you don't they become more prone to failure and are a right PITA to change from what I hear. Annually would be the minimum I'd recommend, although if you're using fancy fully synth oil might be able to get away with longer? (That might be a myth tho')

As for the filters, please don't use Fram ones; The Toyota ones are well made and IMHO worth the cost - We had a few threads on different filters some time back and the Fram ones almost always were near the bottom of the table! I didn't think they were that expensive TBH, even from the dealer, but you can get them on eBay for cheaper.

It does seem with Toyota that their smaller engines are more reliable than their larger engines over a long period of time; I've seen far fewer issues on this board with the 1.4D4D than the 2.0 and 2.2D4D, and likewise with the 1.0 and 1.3 VVTi petrol engines vs the 1.8VVTi!

[avensisd4d786]

Cyker, I always use genuine- do you know who makes the genuine filters for Toyota, the original water pump I took off was made by aisin so was the slave clyinder. I have seen some stuff on mine made by denso. I also believe the clutch kit is made by LuK.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Denso is part of the Toyota Group of companies, and Toyota Motors has the majority shareholding

[mar.eng]

Heidfirst,
The R45 is a Rover L series 2Ltr, with intercooling and turbocharger, not a Toiyota or VW engine, without the DPF but wth a cat and watercooled EGR, Exh sensor, but with the CAV type injector system. There is nothing complicated about a common rail fuel system they have been around since the 1920's and I worked on them in 1974. Car salesmen and mechanics try and bamboozle people with all these terms, but to an Engineer it is easily understandable, in fact I ask salemen and mechanics questions that their limited knowledge cannot answer.

Well I'm glad that the timing chain is now common use for diesels, perhaps brought about by Fleet owners forever having to pay out for the changing of timing belts or demolished engines due to parted belts.

If you keep the oil changes up to date using a decent oil and using non supermarket diesel the Turbos and fuel valves should not fail.

I note there are some people on this forum and others using vege oil in their diesels, they are asking for trouble.

Thanks for your reply.

[mar.eng]

Thanks Cyker, I'll bear those comments in mind.

[Heidfirst]

Heidfirst,

The R45 is a Rover L series 2Ltr,

Oops, yes - it was it's precursor the 400 that used 2 different PSA XUD diesels.

Common rails may have been around for a long time but I don't think that they were running at the pressures that they do now.

Tbh the possible Achilles heel of the current Avensis may turn out to be the electronic handbrake. There have been failures (~£1000 to fix if outside warranty) but like many of these things we just don't know how prevalent they are in terms of actual % failures.

[dave@york]

One point to remember for the D4D:

With the old Rover, the selection of engine oil is not critical. Any decent diesel-compatible oil is OK.

The D4D will have a dpf, and possibly a fuel-assisted dpf regeneration. The selection of engine oil is critical to avoid damage particularly with fuel regen.

You should use an ACEA 2C oil.

[mar.eng]

Thanks for your comment Dave @ York.

Checking on the Castrol website , they recommend Magnatec 5W-30 A1, ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5, API SN/CF suitable for Toyota.

The fuel assisted DPF regeneration, is this the fuel injector in the exhaust manifold prior to the Turbo.

Do you know how this works?

Also looking at Mazda 6, it would appear they have a similar system that deposits extra fuel in the cylinders and has a tendancy to run down the bores cointaminating the oil, which would lead to oil dilution by fuel and quite easily wiping of all white metal bearings. In fact people are experiencing the sump level rising.

I have read of an oil called Denso *?*?* supplied by dealers, is this a semi-syn or a syn and can it be bought outside of the dealers.

All this palaver for the tree huggers, as if it will do any good.

[FROSTYBALLS]

As far as I'm aware, Denso don't sell a Denso branded engine oil. They do produce oil filters, etc.

Under Block Exemption regulations car manufacturers cannot insist that dealers use a particular type or make of engine oil. There is Toyota branded engine oil that some dealerships use - for example I have some Toyota 0W-20 engine oil for my Auris to use should I ever need to top up.

Otherwise dealers are free to use whatever brand they wish provided it meets Toyota specifications - in terms of viscosity and protection levels (eg API SN).

[dave@york]

I would use the ACEA C2 oil, to get the best life out of the dpf and regen system.

A couple of useful video clips attached which contain some useful info.

Cheers.

[mar.eng]

Thanks Dave, but the video clip links never came through.

Can you recommend an ACEA C2 oil supplied by the major oil companies.

Is this oil a Synthetic or Semi-Synthetic?

Do you know how the fuel injector in the exhaust manifold interacts with the DPF system?

[Devon Aygo]

Thanks Dave, but the video clip links never came through.

Can you recommend an ACEA C2 oil supplied by the major oil companies.

Is this oil a Synthetic or Semi-Synthetic?

Do you know how the fuel injector in the exhaust manifold interacts with the DPF system?

Manufacturer of the oil is not really important so long as it meets the C2 spec and is either a 0w30 (preferred) or 5w30 (allowed) it's good enough. Toyota do retail 1lt/5lt cans

The injector operation depends on what engine if it is a normal d4d with a DPF (approx 2010 onwards) then the 4 normal injectors are used to add fuel via the bores on an exhaust stroke to allow fuel into the DPF. If the car has a D-CAT ( 2.2 Auto or 180bhp engine ) this has a DPNR which has a 5th small injector in the side of the cylinder head which injects diesel into the exhaust on command

[mar.eng]

Injecting Fuel into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke appears to be like the Mazda 6 diesel in which they had trouble due to the fuel not passing out of the cylinder in the exhaust stroke and running down the cylinder walls and entering the crank case thus causing rising sump level and fuel dilution of the lube oil leading to bearings being wiped. Poor system.

Even injecting fuel into the exhaust manifold sounds as though you are adding to the problem of pollution and increasing the fuel consumption as more fuel you burn inefficiently creates more waste gasses. What ever elements plus air that goes into the combustion process must come out in some form. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed.

What would happen if they recirculated more exhauist gas at higher speeds, as the EGR only appears to work at low speeds and low engine temperatures?

The manufacturer of the oil is important as the likes of Castrol, BP, Shell etc ( but not Halfrauds ) supply oil in 4-5 litre containers at a much better price than Toyota, who probably do not produce oil and just rebadge and up the price.

Just checked on the Castrol website and they recommend Magnetec 5/30 C2.

It is uneconomical to buy oil in litre containers especially if you are changing the oil at a service.

Is this oil a Synthetic or Semi-Synthetic oil?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Regardless of what individual oil companies recommend, it should be the car manufacturer's recommendation that you should go by.

If it is Castrol that you want, Castrol's Edge is an 0W-30 oil that meets API SM and ACEA C2, and as that fully meets Toyota's recommendation, that would be a better choice than Magnatec 5W-30 C2.

[dave@york]

The object of the exhaust fuel injection is the reduction of particulates. It is true that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but carbon particulates can be oxidised to become CO2.

DCAT is Euro 5 compliant on particulates with <5mg per km. The controls are quite sophisticated. At the instant the fuel is injected to burn the carbon, the O2 in the exhaust has to be sufficient to form CO2 and minimise CO. This higher O2 level conflicts with the need to minimise NOx formation, so the EGR has to work in conjunction with all this. It's a very clever system which meets Euro 5 and eliminates the need to do a motorway burnup to regen the dpf.

Further downstream of course is a conventional 3 way cat converter.

The EGR is an O2 and NOx reduction control. I think that excessive recirc of particulates could sticky and messy.

Toyota recommend ACEA C2 oil (minimum residue) and it would seem unnecessarily risky to use anything else.

http://www://youtube.com/watch?v=sHN5JIP4Z90