Prius Plug In

[tyrosmick]

Assuming that the Plug In has suffered poor sales and therefore there are potentially high UK stock levels, is it the right time for seeking a bargain? I have an Auris Hybrid T-Spirit and am tempted to go Plug In if the price is right. Any thoughts?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Not sure.

Brokers seem to be offering between £3000 and £4000 off the Prius Plug-in. List price is £28,395 including the government grant.

Nationally there are five 'used' 14 reg Prius Plug-ins at Toyota dealers priced between £24.999 and £28,990 priced - all with less than 1,000 miles and 4 of which are less than 3 months old.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

It was always WAY overpriced for what it is or was. A new model is due out later this year. The PIP whilst very capable and will likely be very good at it's job, is very poor value compared to the competition. The 15 mile range will more likely be 10 miles in average driving conditions and one has to question whether it's worth the hassle.

If you get one at the right price then it's a good car and will last, but do not pay full book for it or the overly inflated second hand values demanded by dealers. The car is arguably £5,000 over priced.

The new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is cheaper and goes further on electric, goes faster, is larger etc. Also, Toyota have recently reduced the warranty on their hybrid cars from April 2014. My alarm bells are ringing on that one!

[tyrosmick]

Thank you both, all food for thought! Not convinced on the Outlander PHEV, a little too big for us(pensioners!). Have to see what happens over the next fews weeks. If a larger discount is likely, am I right in assuming that brokers would reflect this before main dealers or should I test the dealer market first?

Any comments from current Plug-in owners?

[Grumpy Cabbie]

My view is always check with the dealers first; you don't get if you don't ask.

You're right though, there are hundreds of unsold examples sitting in an airfield somewhere in the UK. Try a bit of negotiation and push hard. Try them at £20k? Accept nothing but top dollar for your Auris too. Hybrids are holding their value on the second hand market now. Get a valuation on your car from somewhere like "we buy any car dot com" for a rough idea so that you know if the dealers are trying it on or not.

Good luck and let us all know how you get on.

[Chris Dance]

I would buy a PIP but what puts me off is NO SPARE WHEEL. I understand that sales have not been as expected for the PIP and a good deal can be made. I have had the charging point installed so I am all ready if Toyota change the policy of not having a spare wheel on their new cars. I am informed that Nissan have a facility to fit a spare wheel even though it is an extra.

[AGUK]

Howmanyleft (which is surprisingly accurate, but not 100%) is showing less than 1,000 are registered.

I'm not surprised. It's pretty hard to justify the Plug-in compared to a normal Prius, if you look at it from a whole-life cost basis. The electric range is pretty short, you'd struggle to do even an urban commute on electricity, and if I remember correctly you can't go over 60mph without the petrol engine kicking in. Once the range is exhausted, you're lugging a load of extra weight around.

Urban commutes suit a standard Prius perfectly, you're on and off electric power all the time. There's really no need to upgrade. Plus the latest electric cars, as in pure electric cars, usually offer 30-minute charging to 80% capacity. The Prius takes several hours to regain its tiny range, and it's on the Japanese/US connector so you'd need a separate charging cable or a three-pin socketed public charging point to plug in anyway.

Given that Toyota is backing hydrogen fuel cells not electric vehicles, I reckon the Prius Plug-in is a stop gap until this new technology comes on board. It's an incredibly valuable car in some markets, particularly California, where the high occupancy lane helped to make the original Prius a big-seller. The rules got tightened a few years ago to exclude normal hybrids but allow plug-ins to use the carpool lane during rush hour - so the Prius can't use this lane with one occupant, but the Plug-in can.

Plus I guess if you live in London, it's a handy way to dodge the congestion charge. Holland has strong incentives for plug-in hybrids too - the Outlander PHEV is outselling the diesel about 100:1 over there.

But the cost and tax advantages compared to a normal Prius aren't big enough in the UK, unless you're working the car really hard. If you do that, you'll be using the petrol engine loads.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

But if they'd have priced it as in other countries and not cynically added £5,000 just for the £5,000 Government grant to be deducted, the PIP would have been £28,500 - £5,000 = £23,500, or just slightly more than a base Prius.

That was the whole idea of the £5k grant. To bring an BEV or PHEV down to the cost of a traditional hybrid, not for it to be a premium, overpriced product cynically price manipulated for the manufacturer to gain a shifty £5,000 imho.

If the PIP had been £23k, people may have been prepared to take a punt on it. Buy a normal Prius for £22k or may an extra £1,500 for the 10 miles EV option is a punt most people would have at least considered. But £32,000 (before the grant) for a car that goes 10 miles on electric is the stuff of fantasy madness (and poor sales).

Think about it. The base Prius is £22k and the HV Battery is worth £2k, so let's remove the Battery and you're left with a £20,000 car. Now let's give that car the 10-15 mile HV Battery from the PIP. and you end up at £32,000!? That means that battery costs £12,000? No way. So let's base the sums on the £26k t-spirit - £2k for the battery = £24k, it means the battery in the PIP is worth £8,000 (£24k + battery = £32k which is the gross Prius of the PIP). There is no way on Earth that the 10 mile 5.2 kwh battery from the PIP is worth £8,000. The 22kwh battery in the Nissan Leaf is reported to cost about £6,000 in 2014 prices.

So you can see from the sums above that the PIP is just way over priced. Toyota will say they don't have to justify it, but sales are low so it appears punters weren't convinced.

Oh and if that battery is worth the £8,000 indicated above. You better hope it's bl**dy reliable now that Toyota have reduced the warranty on their hybrids. You certainly don't want an £8,000 battery going pop at 5 years 2 months!

Either the PIP is overpriced OR you could end up with a very very expensive repair bill should the HV battery go pop. It's unlikely considering the longevity of previous hybrids, but then again, they had the benefit of an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, not the newer 5 year/100k battery warranty applicable from April 2014.

http://www.toyota.co.uk/insurance-and-warranty/toyota-warranty

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Long time no post. After issues with my current vehicle (none Toyota) I'm ready to jump ship from brand loyalty (has never been returned) and have considered a PIP. One of the used ones at a year old knocking around at £20k.

grumpy cabbie, you make an interesting point about standard Prius being £22k vs £27k for a PIP (price paid inc £5k government grant), but the one thing I think has been overlooked is the spec of the PIP. It sits above a T-spirit Pruis doesn't it? And how much is one of those new?

My only concern is fuel consumption. I do a 50 mile round trip to work each day, would be leaving fully changed from home. Assuming its got a 10 mile range and not the 15.5 Toyota claim, that's still 20% of my journey on plug in juice. Then I've got it as an EV for local running about. Just not sure what oversights I may have made though, don't seem to be many personal reviews knocking about unfortunately about real life living with a PIP.

Jon.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

grumpy cabbie, you make an interesting point about standard Prius being £22k vs £27k for a PIP (price paid inc £5k government grant), but the one thing I think has been overlooked is the spec of the PIP. It sits above a T-spirit Pruis doesn't it? And how much is one of those new?

Jon.

I thought I did. The £26k t-spirit was quoted. I deducted the £2,000 for the Battery and came up with £24,000 for the t-spirit without the Battery. Then I used the gross cost of the PIP at £32,000 so I could accurately work out the cost of its HV Battery. No point using the £28,500 cost after the £5,000 grant. The £32k minus £24k (to work out the battery cost) came up with £8,000 for the HV battery in the PIP.

There is no way the HV battery is £8k as shown in earlier post. If, and it's a big if, it actually does cost that, then God help you if it fails once the new, reduced warranty runs out at 5 years.

One could argue that the PIP is £28.5k and only slightly over the £26k of the t-spirit, but that ignores the £5,000 grant of yours and my tax money. Toyota like to quote depreciation from the original non discounted price of £32k, so why shouldn't I use that as a base figure to work out the battery cost? It's the cost of the actual car.

You might say that £28.5k is the price to buy the car and therefore the price to base the car on. And you're right, you can buy one for that, but you're risking an £8,000 battery cost OR Toyota are scamming the UK Government. Which is it? If the HV battery cost is £3,000 for the PIP then Toyota should be investigated for fraud because of the gross cost of the car being £32k imho.

[johalareewi]

don't seem to be many personal reviews knocking about unfortunately about real life living with a PIP.

There are a few PIP owners who post their experiences on this forum.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Nissan have just released the replacement cost of their 22kwh Leaf battery;

http://insideevs.com/breaking-nissan-prices-leaf-battery-replacement-5499-new-packs-heat-durable/

$5,500 or £3,200 for a 22 kwh Battery. OK add VAT to that and you get £3,840 and Nissan indicate 3 hours labour to fit. Toyotas pricing indicates their PIP pack at 5kwh is worth £8,000!

So now we have proof that Toyota are lifting the legs of their customers with PIP pricing, at least in my eyes.

It also makes the Nissan Leaf a serious consideration for owners who travel less than 80 miles a day. You can pick up a car for £10,000 now with 10k or less miles. Then when the pack does pack in (pardon the pun :) ), you simply have it repaced for £4,000. The savings in petrol will be significant. An ideal car for commuters.

One does have to question Renaults insistence on Battery leasing at a minimum of £70 per month, open ended for the life of the car!

[AGUK]

I agree. With a 50-mile commute I'd definitely be looking to go full EV rather than the Prius, which has a very small range. How does a used Prius compare to the Plug-in?

Remember with a used LEAF you can rapid charge it too. So if 99% of your journeys are local you'll have no range issues, but you can reach 80% charge in less than half an hour at most motorway service stations - for free, using renewable energy. You'll do all of your commuting on electricity that way.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Comparing the Prius to the PIP?

Are all your journeys within 10 miles? If the car will be a 'pop to the shops, school run' car, then the PIP might be worthy of consideration. Saying that, if all your trips were of that nature why not buy an EV? Good second hand ones with barely a 100 miles are going for about £15k without a Battery lease. With the other £10k you could buy a little Kia for the longer runs :)

The PIP is a strange one. To quote a Yorkshireism, it's neither somat or nowt; something or nothing. It's not an EV or even a useful PHEV and it's not a petrol car. Is it worth plugging in to go 10-15 miles on electric and keeping under 60 mph or harsh acceleration? Hmmm.

Is it a nice car? Sure. Is it worth the extra money for the novelty of a miniscule electric range? That's an answer only an owner can give. The existing Prius or the other hybrids out there give good economy and reasonable performance without luggging about 100kg of batteries for a miniscule range.

What are you looking for? What use pattern? Would a good second hand Leaf be better if your Yaris HSD is a second car in the house already?

I do hope that PIP 2.0 has a much more useful range or it will be left behind by the competition; the Outlander being one.

[IanIanIanIan]

85-90% of my journeys are under 12 miles, the rest of the mileage is made up of 65 mile plus journeys including two or three round trips to the north of Scotland every year. I also need to carry the occasional large load, say a washing machine or some fencing, and often five people and their kit. An EV would not cut it, perhaps in a few years when the charging situation settles down but too much hassle today. My usual destinations don't have ( and will not be getting, charge points). We already have a second car, a 35 year old 2CV, and no room for a third. We had already had a Prius for eight years so the move to a PiP was easy to make.

The PiP is giving 80+ MPG on long trips and of course electric only day to day. Rarely, say twice a month, does the ICE kick in accidentally around town on the short trips, zipping across a roundabout to jump in is the usual.

I never understand why people quote list prices and savings. The only important price is the one paid. I paid £23,724.93 to Drive The Deal last August with the car delivered to my home fulled and complete and with pearlescent paint as an extra.

It works well for us.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Comparing the Prius to the PIP?

Are all your journeys within 10 miles? If the car will be a 'pop to the shops, school run' car, then the PIP might be worthy of consideration. Saying that, if all your trips were of that nature why not buy an EV? Good second hand ones with barely a 100 miles are going for about £15k without a battery lease. With the other £10k you could buy a little Kia for the longer runs :)

The PIP is a strange one. To quote a Yorkshireism, it's neither somat or nowt; something or nothing. It's not an EV or even a useful PHEV and it's not a petrol car. Is it worth plugging in to go 10-15 miles on electric and keeping under 60 mph or harsh acceleration? Hmmm.

Is it a nice car? Sure. Is it worth the extra money for the novelty of a miniscule electric range? That's an answer only an owner can give. The existing Prius or the other hybrids out there give good economy and reasonable performance without luggging about 100kg of batteries for a miniscule range.

What are you looking for? What use pattern? Would a good second hand Leaf be better if your Yaris HSD is a second car in the house already?

I do hope that PIP 2.0 has a much more useful range or it will be left behind by the competition; the Outlander being one.

Use pattern is 50mile round trip from home and back to home. Leaf isn't an option, the spec isn't up to my standard, and 65 mile range in the winter with heater, wipers and lights going isn't an option, I occasionally have changes of plans which mean the 50 mile round trip could suddenly be 80-100 miles.

On a 50 mile round trip, with a 10 mile EV range, thats 20% of my journey on Battery, plug normal Prius use in addition to this. I've been having a look at used Prius vs used PIP on the next, and for a 12 month old version I can spend an extra £2k and get a PIP over the same age t-spirit Prius, only difference in addition to this is the PIP having an additional 12k on the clock, but if anything this is a benefit as it'll already be run in over a 4k mile engine.

85-90% of my journeys are under 12 miles, the rest of the mileage is made up of 65 mile plus journeys including two or three round trips to the north of Scotland every year. I also need to carry the occasional large load, say a washing machine or some fencing, and often five people and their kit. An EV would not cut it, perhaps in a few years when the charging situation settles down but too much hassle today. My usual destinations don't have ( and will not be getting, charge points). We already have a second car, a 35 year old 2CV, and no room for a third. We had already had a Prius for eight years so the move to a PiP was easy to make.

The PiP is giving 80+ MPG on long trips and of course electric only day to day. Rarely, say twice a month, does the ICE kick in accidentally around town on the short trips, zipping across a roundabout to jump in is the usual.

I never understand why people quote list prices and savings. The only important price is the one paid. I paid £23,724.93 to Drive The Deal last August with the car delivered to my home fulled and complete and with pearlescent paint as an extra.

It works well for us.

The price you paid, what that a special offer, of just a case of good bargaining skills?

Oh and what is ICE?

Do you find in real world use the 15.5 mile EV range quoted is correct? What do you tend to get?

Another question, the LED headlights, how do they compare with Bi-Xenon HID headlights on other cars, my current car has these fitted, and with the mileage and type of country roads I use I'm a fan of decent headlights.

Thanks.

[IanIanIanIan]

ICE=Internal Combustion Engine, a derogatory term amongst pure EV owners.

Purchase breakdown:

List Price £33,245.00
White Pearl £650.00
Protection Pack £360.00
OLEV Incentive (£5,000.00)
Toyota Loyalty Bonus (£1,500.00)
Drive The Deal (£4,030.07)

Total £23,724.93

No bargaining required. The Toyota bonus was for Prius owners buying another Prius, old V5 scan required.

I gave Drive the Deal the details of what I wanted and that is what they came back with, I did not even know about the loyalty bonus until they pointed that availability out to me. A very easy purchase.

No other Toyota garage mentioned it and I contacted eight across the country to get prices, Elgin (I have relatives there and asked on a visit) came closest but almost a couple of thousand more and I would have had to get the car back to Reading.

10-12 mile range dependent on temperature. Aircon uses about a mile.

LED headlights are startlingly bright but a bit blue around the edges.

[AGUK]

ICE isn't a derogatory term, it's an industry term for an internal combustion engine.

The only time it's used in anger is when someone with a conventional car parks in a bay with a charging point. Then the bay is described as "ICEd"

[PeteB]

I was lent a PIP for a day on one of my services - picked it up at 7:30 am, fully charged on a coolish morning last November (about 4 or 5 C IIRC) and the display showed 9½ miles EV range when they unplugged it after a full night's charge.

Earlier this year I chatted to an owner in a car park and he said he was only getting 8½ miles in the winter, but was very happy with the car as it met his requirements.

In an average month I recon there would only be 2 or 3 days when I had to use much petrol (and I can top up at a Little Chef half way when I stop for coffee/supper) although I would need to plug in a few times during the day, which things like the BMW i3 RX and Outlander PHEV wouldn't require. Again, the big no no for me was no spare wheel, or anywhere to put one (except the boot).

[IanIanIanIan]

I was being ironic as I have an ICE. Still, it is how you read it I suppose.

ICE is also an industry term for In Car Entertainment, don't get confused.

I bought a spacesaver wheel, which was totally unused, from a scrapyard for £20. It sits in the boot normally, or when loaded up to the gunnels, behind the drivers seat held in place by the folded down rear seat headrest. It has never been a problem and is, like carrying an umbrella, my guarantee that I won't get a puncture. The day I leave it behind I will get two punctures (which never seems to bother anybody who complains of a lack of a spare. Do they carry two spares today?)

Also, if you wish there is actually a built in, shaped and designed place to carry one:

I don't, it has a cover and is just chucked in the boot.

[PeteB]

...I bought a spacesaver wheel, which was totally unused, from a scrapyard for £20. It sits in the boot normally, or when loaded up to the gunnels, behind the drivers seat ...

Also, if you wish there is actually a built in, shaped and designed place to carry one:

I don't, it has a cover and is just chucked in the boot.

Sure, I was aware of these options, but they don't suit me at the moment as whilst the vast majority of my journeys are local, every now again I go touring (with some 3 month European trips planned for the next year or two). When I do this I completely fill the existing Prius boot (and space under the false boot floor) leaving nothing on display to draw the attention of thieves.

In a plugin, I would already be missing the under floor space, without the loss of space taken up by the spare wheel - plus if using the "designed place" I'm sure my bad back would appreciate removing it every time I want to put my holdall into or out of the boot.

I appreciate they had to find space for the extra Battery, but 7 years ago I sometimes had use of the 2007 Prius with a 3rd party plugin modification that did nearly 40 miles on a charge - and the small 6 person firm that did it still managed to leave room for the space saver under the floor - this is why I was particularly disappointed when I found out the official Toyota plugin, designed by a firm with massive resources and with a much more modest Battery, didn't!

BTW Had I not experience this, I would probably have been less critical. I've had about 14 punctures in the last 12 years, but fortunately never two at once!

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Test drove a PIP this afternoon. Was very impressed. Managed about 13 miles out of EV mode, which I was happy with considering its the first ever Toyota Hybrid I've driven and probably wasnt driving it at its most economical.

The dealer is trying to find one within the Toyota network which is about 12 months old as I don't fancy new out of the box with depreciation levels etc, but hope to be a potential PIP owner in the new few weeks all being well.

Just another few questions for current PIP owners if I may, the AC button n the remote, a bit of googling shows this operates the ventilation system for upto 10 minutes, everything relates to cooling the cabin in the summer, but will it do the opposite and heat it / defrost the car in the winter months?

Also is there a smart phone app available to remotely check charge state / start charging of the PIP when parked and plugged in, I'm sure I've seen something then searching the net, or is this just over seas markets that get this?

[IanIanIanIan]

The engine is the only source of heat in a PiP unfortunately, except for the heated seats. I have not found any smartphone/internet access apps for the UK, I suspect that is only for the US market. bluetooth linkage with phones and iPads/iPods (and my desktop iMac) though but that just plays music, not exchange of data.

In cold weather I use the heated seats and City mode alone for short journeys, say ten minutes and HV and let the car do its thing until the engine stops, then EV or City for longer journeys.

The fuel cost for the few moments of running is far less than any alternative I have looked at, mains heater placed in car before driving off, electric sump heater, 12V PTC heater in ventilation duct and Eberspacher type heaters. Toyota have made the correct decisions about car heating. The PiP is a hybrid first with EV use second.

The remote aircon is useful, it will run for ten minutes on first trigger and then another ten minutes on second trigger and then locked out until a door is opened. Not too much of a hit on EV. I have not discovered its range but it is far, far more than the door locking, hundreds of yards.

The UK PiP is very different to the US version and Wikipedia (and the other US sites) should be disregarded. Talk to a UK owner.

[Chris Dance]

Ian: Does the PIP come with the tools and jack or did you have to get them from the scrap yard with the spare? Is there the same storage space for the spare wheel on the PIP as the normal Prius? My local dealer does not have a PIP in stock or I would go and investigate myself. If a new PIP comes onto the market I suspect the price of the current model will reduce considerably.

[IanIanIanIan]

The Pip comes with a jack and tools under the passenger seat and an integrated 12V tyre pump and puncture goo dispenser in the boot, you cannot use the pump as a stand alone pump. There is no storage for any size of spare but I discovered a designed in 'holder' for want of a better word:

I just chuck the spacesaver in the boot (in a nice bag) or with the rear seat flat, behind the driver's seat.

I understand the replacement puncture goo costs a lot, £120+, and many tyre repairers refuse to repair a goo-ed tyre. So a simple puncture may cost upwards of £200!!!

I bought some Holt's tyreweld which says on the label that National Tyre will repair and give a 10% discount. I have also modified the pump so it will work as an ordinary tyre pump, complex and you need a lathe.