Prius Plug In

[kithmo]

Am I right in understanding that when comparing the PIP to a T-Spirit, there is no option which includes a reverse camera with guidance lines showing the direction of travel nor radar cruise control?

I think they dropped the guide lines when they went over to touch and go in 2012, T-spirit lost them too IIRC, unless you had the technology pack with IPA.

[johalareewi]

I think they dropped the guide lines when they went over to touch and go in 2012, T-spirit lost them too IIRC, unless you had the technology pack with IPA.

The guide lines are often in the camera not the head unit.

[kithmo]

I think they dropped the guide lines when they went over to touch and go in 2012, T-spirit lost them too IIRC, unless you had the technology pack with IPA.

The guide lines are often in the camera not the head unit.

I meant the moving ones that curve around with the turning of the steering wheel, to show you where you are going to go with that amount of lock on, software based in the old T-Spirit Nav system, pre T&G.

[EcoCar]

New prices are high though companies like WOW offer considerable discounts online. After carefully looking at all the current and imminent EVs including the Outlander I finally opted for a demo plugin Prius. With just over 1000m and several extras this was £23,400 with Toyota Nuneaton providing an excellent service with no pressure on us to buy.

I've just parted with a 15 yr old Golf running on 100% biofuel (chipfat) often giving me 70plus mpg driving with a light foot on the pedal. The first 500 miles or so on the PIP has given me average mileage around 180 and on a 50 mile run today starting fuilly charged (13.1 showing) it returned 117 mpg. On this limited experience I'm so far happy I've made the right choice. The Outlander admittedly does double the EV mileage but it is a heavy vehicle with a modest engine after the Battery runs down and I suspect overall will give a poorer mileage than the PIP.

Have been trying to setup the Entune app on my (android) mobile phone but have come to the conclusion that it only works in the US. Has anyone else managed to find an app to set charging times etc which works here in the UK?

[MEP's Yaris GS]

The Outlander admittedly does double the EV mileage but it is a heavy vehicle with a modest engine after the battery runs down and I suspect overall will give a poorer mileage than the PIP.

This is the same conclusion I came to. Outlander will be great if you're regularly doing no more than 25-30 miles, but for me on a 50 mile round trip for work, and several 300-400 mile journeys, the crippling MPG of a Hybrid 4x4 will outweight the additional EV range and cost more overall than an PIP to run. Then you've bigger tyre costs, bigger car parking issues etc etc.

IMO the PIP hasn't any real competitors for this reason, as to the best of my knowledge all other PHV's currently available are 4x4's.

The UK doesn't have entune, so I'd give up wasting your time lol.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Horses for courses. Many people might like the benefit of 4x4; probably people who don't live in London though. Many people might like the bigger stance of the Outlander and many will prefer the increase in power (200+bhp). And the electric range is double the PIP which is great if you do an average UK commute. I'll bet that in 12 months the Outlander will sell more than the PIP did in its first 12 months.

I am very curious as to what the next generation of PIP is like. It had better be a quantum leap to catch up with the serious competition out there.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Horses for courses. Many people might like the benefit of 4x4; probably people who don't live in London though. Many people might like the bigger stance of the Outlander and many will prefer the increase in power (200+bhp). And the electric range is double the PIP which is great if you do an average UK commute. I'll bet that in 12 months the Outlander will sell more than the PIP did in its first 12 months.

I am very curious as to what the next generation of PIP is like. It had better be a quantum leap to catch up with the serious competition out there.

But as I've said, its not direct competition. Its a different class / league of car, its like comparing the Freelander with an Avensis.

200+ BHP - Its a PHV, not purchased for power tbh, the PiP is 134BHP and only 1450KG and more than powerful enough for a good blast when needed.

Then there is the fact that using the Outlander as a hybrid it's still using 2-2.5 times more fuel than a PiP is in hybrid mode.

33MPG over 500 miles with one recharge and about a 20-22 mile real life range (So not even twice the real world a PiP will five (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/mitsubishi/10940771/Mitsubishi-Outlander-PHEV-review.html)

Thing I'll stick to the 71MPG I managed over 375 miles without a recharge in my PIP and its regular 12-15mile EV only range, easy parking and cheaper tyres etc.

Like you say though, will be interesting to see what they make of the next PiP.

[EcoCar]

Thanks for your comments and confirming Entune can't be used on UK mobiles.

I forgot to add the other ideal feature of the PIP is I can fully charge it in less than two hours - at the moment from a 13A socket - and, in the current weather - at no cost by using the surplus PV I'm generating on the barn. I don't think there is any other vehicle out there at the moment or even likely in less than two/three years which gives me the same options. Much of my driving is local - so most of that is well over 200 mpg equivalent and on longer runs I believe my mileage figures should be close to 100 mpg though time will tell.

It has been a little difficult to access a13A plug with the limited cable length so some hesitantly (as I'm not a fan of British Gas) am having a charging point put in a more convenient place today. Have missed the free options but £115 isn't bad for a bespoke 16A installation.

So far I've not found anywhere to charge the PIP when out and about as most of the charging points are 32A or more and the cables are a different fitting.

I'll report on the charging point installation (deals still available as I write) in due course.

[IanIanIanIan]

Why go with British Gas? There are other suppliers. I have a free PodPoint with no problems.

[EcoCar]

Free offers stopped mid July and British Gas was the only response I got after sending out 4 requests to different installers.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Thanks for confirming the free offers have stopped, I thought they had, but had someone (none EV owner, so not sure why they'd have known better) advise that they are still available.

[IanIanIanIan]

PodPoint still install for free. The 16A that is. I think there are others as well.

Call 020 7247 4114 for confirmation.

[JSHarris]

First post, so please be gentle (although some here may remember me from other Prius places).

I've owned four Prius's, since 2005, and currently have a Plug-In, which I bought very hurriedly because my 2010 Prius T4 was written off in a no-fault accident. I couldn't quickly find a replacement Prius nearby, but did find a 6 month old ex-demo Plug-in at a very good price. Despite a fair bit of trepidation about the limited EV only range and the chance that I was buying a stop-gap model that may well be superseded before to long, I had to get another car quickly, and this came along at the right price.

My experience, after 7 weeks ownership, has been very positive. My daily commute is 16 mile each way, and I can charge at home (via the supplied cable) and at work (via a free charge point). The car was supplied with about 1/3rd tank of fuel that lasted the first couple of weeks, and the mpg display hadn't been reset recently so wasn't showing a sensible value when I picked it up. When I filled it up just over a month ago I reset the trip and mpg display. Since then I've driven just over 1000 miles, including a motorway trip of around 140 miles and a couple of trips of around 60 miles with no re-charge. The rest has been commuting (with a charge at each end) or trips into the city (which I can "just" make there and back on EV only mode).

The indicated mpg is currently 144mpg, and the fuel guage dropped to 2 bars this evening on the drive home. At a guess, the range will be around 1200 miles on a tankful for fairly untypical 5 weeks or so of driving. The daily commute of 16 miles each way shows a typical journey mpg of around 210 to 230 mpg on the shut down display.

The driving experience is typically Prius, except that it feels a little less sprightly in EV mode, but pretty much the same in Eco mode or City mode. The build quality is a lot better than my 2010 Prius, which had several very annoying rattles that proved very hard to fix. Even the radio works (and those with 2010 models will recognise just how awful the radio was in that model if they happen to live in a poor signal area). Also the nav system is a very significant improvement on the 2010 T spirit nav (the poor nav was the reason I bought a T4 back then).

Overall, if anyone is thinking of buying a Plug-in, my advice woud be to ignore the paper spec and look at how they will use the car. If most of your driving will be sub-20 mile trips, with the opportunity to charge at each end, then I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised at how good the mpg is, as the chances are it'll perform better than expected.

One thing I've found very useful is to have a charging lead that plugs into a standard Commando-style 16A outdoor industrial connector. I found a Czech supplier that offer an "intelligent" J1772 plug, that includes the EVSE electronics needed to get the Prius charger to turn on, but that can be wired up to a suitable length of cable and industrial plug. 240V Commando outlets are pretty common, they are the standard caravan hook up point, and can be found pretty much anywhere in an industrial environment. They are also relatively cheap to wire up to your home, if you can't get a free charge point (and we can't as we can't get a mobile phone signal).

Anyway, just thought the above might be useful.

PS: Hi Pete B, glad to see you're just as enthusiastic about the Prius now as you were wne you first bought that "Mk 1" all those years ago.

[Astolat]

PodPoint still install for free. The 16A that is. I think there are others as well.

Call 020 7247 4114 for confirmation.

I was in a twitter conversation with PodPoint today, and noticed they tweeted that they had just installed their last free home charger.

[PeteB]

... my 2010 Prius T4 was written off in a no-fault accident.

... The build quality is a lot better than my 2010 Prius

PS: Hi Pete B, glad to see you're just as enthusiastic about the Prius now as you were when you first bought that "Mk 1" all those years ago.

Hi Jeremy - welcome - good to 'see' you again - sorry to hear about your 2010 - I guess we both know how each other feels!

The chassis was stiffened for the 2012 facelift to give better handling, but it also seemed to banish the creaks etc. My T3 on its 15" wheels (just like your plugin!) gives it quite a pleasant ride (nice and quiet too on my Dunlop Sport BluResponse tyres), although it still can't match the ride quality, seat comfort or quality of interior materials of the Gen 1.

I've driven almost 300,000 mikes in Hybrids since 2002 now, and counting! I still lurk on the Yahoo Prius-UK group and am still a (less busy) moderator but don't say so much there these days - quite busy here though!

Enjoy the plug-in - I think it's largely underrated (especially if you get a good deal - someone here managed to get a brand new one for £23-24K!). It would work great for me with an overnight charge and one or two during the day between local trips, but for various reasons I insist on having a spare wheel and somewhere to store it (not to mention storing a full size wheel if you have to use the spare).

Regards, Pete

[JSHarris]

Hi Pete,

My Prius mileage isn't as high as yours, but at a guess it's somewhere north of 120,000 miles since 2005, half of that in the 2005 Prius. The ride is very definitely much better on the 15" wheels, and the road noise is lower. I really don't know what Toyota were thinking when they put those very low profile tyres and 17" rims on the T4 and T Spirit as standard, the car isn't a boy racer machine and is much nicer without them.

My limited experience shows that the plug-in IS seriously under rated, I think. My guess is people look at the EV range and think it just isn't enough, when most of the time it's just about right. I got mine for the same (perhaps a bit less) that I would have paid for a 6 month old T Spirit so the "plug-in" feature really came at no cost (as the spec is otherwise very similar to the T Spirit).

I share the worry about the lack of a spare, as I managed to accidentally split the sidewall on a tyre on my 2010 Prius driving over a sharp flint. The silly kit in the plug-in wouldn't have fixed that. My plan is to see if I can get a skinny spare from a scrap yard and get a bag for it, as I don't like the idea of doing a long journey without a spare.

For those with questions about free home charge points, then I did a fair bit of research on them, as I'm part way through building a new house and wanted one fitted as a bit of future proofing.

First off, to use a home charge point with a plug in Prius you either have to get one with a tethered lead (fairly limiting, as the lead is a maximum of 5m, with most only being 3m, so it means parking right next to the charge point in practice) or you have to buy a lead to convert the J1772 connector on the Prius to the IEC 62196 connector used on most charging points. From Toyota this lead is an eye watering £500+, but a 5m lead can be bought for around £150 if you shop around.

Secondly, the scheme has almost dried up, although there are still one or two companies that will install one (British Gas said they would when I spoke to them a few weeks ago, even though the other players had temporarily stopped fitting them).

Finally, you have to have a good mobile phone signal at the charge point location, and sign up to agree to share all the data that the charge point sends back to the installer. It is selling this data on that really pays for the charge point I think, as personal data like this (address, owner of an electric vehicle, number of times the point is used, energy consumption etc) has a value to marketeers. Some also reserve the right, in principle, to lock you out of using your free charger at any future date and impose their own tariff of charges to allow access to it, over and above the fact that the thing is using your own electricity. We don't have a mobile signal and when I asked why one was needed was when I found out about the data transmission. It's initially a bit like a store loyalty card, in that its main purpose is to gather marketing data so you can be targeted for advertising, I think.

The good news is that fitting your own charge point is pretty easy, and any competent electrician can make the final connections and sign it off if you feel in any way concerned about your own competence to do a pretty simple wiring job. In my case I had already fitted a 16A Commando outlet (with RCD) as an outdoor power supply, so only needed to get a cable, EVSE and connector. The EVSE is the awkward bit, as the car needs to see a 1 kHz signal at a specific mark/space ratio in order to know the current rating of the outlet it is connected to. It loads this signal line down to call for power to be turned on, and the EVSE then makes the connection live by turning on a contactor to supply power to the car. When the car has charged it signals back to tell the EVSE to turn off the power.

I found a few open source EVSE projects around on the web, but opted to buy a J1772 car connector and a very neat little EVSE unit from a Czech company. This fits inside the connector, and includes a contactor, so all that is then needed is a suitable length of heavy duty extension lead (I used 15m of tough 2.5mm² industrial cable) together with a suitable Commando (or any other suitable) connector on the other end. For safety's sake, the power outlet must be protected by an RCD, but this is a part of the regs now anyway. A caravan hook up box is an affordable way of getting a waterproof box with a Commando connector and an RCD already fitted, and can also be used to run electric lawn mowers, power washers etc, so is more versatile than a dedicated charge point. Finally, a lead made up like this is a lot easier to carry around than the Toyota lead with its bulky EVSE box at one end, and is reasonably weatherproof.

[PeteB]

Hi Jeremy

My mileage was helped along the way by the year in the minicab (ahem I mean Private Hire Vehicle - my then lords and masters hated the term "minicab" as they felt it conjured up a picture of a 12 year old Cavalier smelling of kebabs!). I did 46,000 miles in the PHV that year, plus 7k in my own Prius, as well as about 4k in the Micra my ex-partner had at the time, not to mention a holiday hire car (nearly 400 miles in Ibiza [30 miles long!]).

It's not just the loss of comfort and mpg with the bigger tyres - one reason I kept my Gen 1 for so long was it had a proper full sized spare (with matching alloy) plus old fashioned virtues like two each of rear fog and reversing lights (and the Gen 2 STILL didn't have heated mirrors!). I spent about £1,100 on tyres in the 9 years (average £40 a pop from my brilliant Toyota dealer in Norwich) - the 16" jobbies on the Gen 2 averaged £90-£100 each (£120 at first) - I would have spent £2½k for those - an extra nice holiday or two thank you very much!

Mind you, Toyota aren't alone - I tested a BMW i3 electric + range extender earlier this year - it's Yaris-sized but had 19" wheels (like the biggest Lexus off-roader and limo!).

4 of 12 twelve punctures I've had in the last 12 years would never have been fixed by gunk (especially the one where the tyre exploded at 60 mph, and I just had a bare rim by the time I stopped!) and the rest; maybe, maybe not.

[PeteB]

ps: if you're interested in my review of the i3, look here:

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/158061-stock-plug-in/page-2#entry1333511

[JSHarris]

Having filled up my Plug in for the second time on Tuesday (first fill up was 7th August) I can give some real-world data that may be useful. My normal daily commute is 16 miles each way, and I can charge both ends (one end being a free charge). Over the past 6 weeks I've done a couple of longer trips (with no re-charging), one of ~140 miles, one of ~50 miles, plus 5 shopping trips to the local city and back that were pure EV mode trips.

Total mileage was 1141.6 miles between fill ups, with 35.35 litres needed when I filled up. The indicated MPG was 149, but the true MPG works out as 146.6. Overall I'm pretty impressed, as even including the 35 charges that I've had to pay for, my total "fuel" cost was around £60. Worked back to equivalent MPG (based only only costs) this gives around 110mpg, which still seems pretty good.

It confirms my view that, for people who have a driving pattern that is mainly sub-20 mile journeys, with an ability to charge at both ends, and only long trips once a month or less, the Prius Plug in is a pretty good option.

I'll admit to being very pleasantly surprised at it's performance, with no real gripes. My only real issue is the silly price Toyota charge for a standard J1772 to IEC 62196 cable (as used by 99% of charge points). Charging more than three times the price of other vendors seems OTT, and this lead really should be included with the car, rather than the rather daft (and awkward/bulky) lead with a 13A plug that it comes with.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Having filled up my Plug in for the second time on Tuesday (first fill up was 7th August) I can give some real-world data that may be useful. My normal daily commute is 16 miles each way, and I can charge both ends (one end being a free charge). Over the past 6 weeks I've done a couple of longer trips (with no re-charging), one of ~140 miles, one of ~50 miles, plus 5 shopping trips to the local city and back that were pure EV mode trips.

Total mileage was 1141.6 miles between fill ups, with 35.35 litres needed when I filled up. The indicated MPG was 149, but the true MPG works out as 146.6. Overall I'm pretty impressed, as even including the 35 charges that I've had to pay for, my total "fuel" cost was around £60. Worked back to equivalent MPG (based only only costs) this gives around 110mpg, which still seems pretty good.

It confirms my view that, for people who have a driving pattern that is mainly sub-20 mile journeys, with an ability to charge at both ends, and only long trips once a month or less, the Prius Plug in is a pretty good option.

I'll admit to being very pleasantly surprised at it's performance, with no real gripes. My only real issue is the silly price Toyota charge for a standard J1772 to IEC 62196 cable (as used by 99% of charge points). Charging more than three times the price of other vendors seems OTT, and this lead really should be included with the car, rather than the rather daft (and awkward/bulky) lead with a 13A plug that it comes with.

An interesting read, how many miles do you find you do on ICE each way on your 16 mile commute out of interest?

I do a 50 mile round trip for work, and don't have charging at work (yet), and seem to average 85-90MPG in my PiP with the odd bit of local running about (gym etc) on EV only. Even when completing a 375 mile journey (sitting mainly at 65mph) in-between 2 fill ups without any charging on a run to the midlands and back she still returned 71MPG on manual brim to brim calc which I was happy with :)

I can't compare with a normal Prius as the PiP is my first Hybrid, but have been really pleased with it and not looked back personally. Eventually my work commute should drop to <20mile round trip - the PiP should come into its own then, especially if I manage to get charging at work sorted.

[JSHarris]

At a guess, I'm probably doing around 4 or 5 miles of my commute in ICE mode and the rest in EV mode. Part of the past 6 weeks consumption probably isn't realistic, as I've been getting used to the pessimistic "EV range remaining display" and trying to judge when I can complete each journey with no Battery power left.

My last Prius was a 2010, and that used to average around 56 mpg in winter and around 63mpg in summer, with an average of around 56 to 58 mpg on long motorway trips in summer. Temperature makes a big difference, mainly because most of the fuel goes in overcoming drag, and aerodynamic drag increases with air density. The previous Prius (a 2005 one) was a bit worse, dopping to around 50mpg in winter and struggling to ever reach 60 mpg, but that was used mainly for a 45 miles each way commute.

For my old 2005 Prius, that I owned for around 3 1/2 years and 65,000 miles, I found that the fuel consumption pretty much perfectly matched the air density change with temperature. Even though some were arguing that the engine should be more efficient in cold weather, the correlation was so strong that it was hard to come up with an alternative explanation.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

In cold weather the engine is running at a richer fuel mix for longer until up to temp, mainly due to low external temps around the engine bay and the heat being drawn off into the cabin, so that'll be the main reason for decreased fuel consumption in the winter.

[JSHarris]

True, for a very short time at start up, but the correlation between air density and fuel consumption is close, to the extent that it pretty much proves beyond doubt that it's the primary causative factor for any reasonable length of journey, where initial warm up isn't a significant proportion of the overall fuel usage.

For example, at 50 mph, the aerodynamic drag increases by 7.2 % for a change in air temperature from 20 deg C to 0 deg C, which matches pretty closely the fuel consumption increase.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I disagree with you saying it's for a very short time. The engine will run for longer at start up before switching off, but the engine will run significantly longer to warm the heater up (or the coolant for it) and also to keep it 'topped' up with warmth. I know as I've driven tens of thousands of miles in winter. The engine will cycle on and off and on and off all the time, whereas in summer it will stay off for much much longer.

And the colder the weather the more the heater needs heat and the more the engine cycles on and off.

So aerodynamic drag could increase for sure, as does the tyre drag because of wet roads. But in a hybrid the engine is used more and the heater requires it to run more for heat. When I used to commute 25 miles each way, in summer the engine would switch off after about half a mile, in freezing weather it would still be running 5 or 6 miles in through town. There goes your average mpgs.

My car spent the first 60k miles in town where is barely ever got to 30 mph (average speed often about 12 mph) and my fuel consumption dropped significantly in winter). At that speed it would be barely anything to do with aerodynamics.

[PeteB]

I think GC is right - on my second Gen 1 Prius that I ran from 2002-2011 for the most part I was doing a 40 mile each way cross country commute during the week. I was driving at speeds where the ICE was running a lot of the time anyway, and my tank-to-tank fuel consumption averaged about 55 mpg both winter and summer.

On my present Gen 3, where I do lots of short journeys, the winter mpg gets hammered, but I think that's mostly due to the ICE working more as a heater. Again, this is at speeds where air resistance is not the major factor.