Government E-Petition For Proper Spare Wheel

[PeteB]

If anyone is interested, someone has created an e-petition about making a "proper" spare wheel mandatory. It only has 23 votes at the moment, but expires on 5th September.

It can be found here:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/54578

More and more Toyotas and other cars are now coming with just a can of gunge, that doesn't always work. The Plugin Prius doesn't come with a spare, or a decent home for one if bought separately (it partially blocks the boot), and what's the betting the Gen 4 Prius (when it finally arrives) won't have a spare either?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Just cannot see that this petition will do anything - not only is it calling for vehicle manufacturers to fit a spare wheel, but also that the spare is the same size as fitted to the road wheels. The second issue is unrealistic - to my knowledge temporary space saver spare wheels have been common fitments for at least 16 years, satisfy current legislation and provide a reasonable means of keeping one mobile until one can get a replacement tyre fitted.

It would be more effective to concentrate on the one aim of getting manufacturers to fit a spare wheel.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I agree. Keep it simple. I don't want a full size spare as they do take up extra space, esp since wheels have got wider in the last 20 years. But a space saver will do me fine. It get's you from the side of the motorway, even if you're restricted to 50 mph. It also gives people an added incentive to get their damaged tyre fixed, where a full size spare meant that people would just stick the flat tyre in the boot only to be forgotten about until it was needed.

Also, how many of us when we were young and foolish would use the full sized spare to get their car through an mot, leaving a spare with dubious tread depth.

I think the bullet should be bitten and a new e-petition started just insisting on any spare - full stop. Then it doesn't alienate anyone and could even go viral. I think such a petition could be 'introduced' to the Motoring Press, many of whose readers will agree with you.

[PeteB]

Well, went I went to the e-petition web site, I was planning to create just such a petition, but when I saw this one I felt a second similar petition running at the same time as this one would be counter productive.

Whilst my personal preference is for a full size spare and space to store it, I do concur with your reasoning and a space saver is certainly preferable to no spare at all. When I get around to my Europe trips, I plan to buy a full size spare and new boot under tray assembly to accommodate it, but it's not a cheap option at about £700 for the lot!

That said, there are issues I have with space savers:

- a trip up the M1 one evening on one limited to 50 mph was quite nerve wracking when it looked like I'd be rear-ended every 5 minutes

- 2 chemists who had worked for two different tyre companies told me that tyres should be replaced at about 5 years anyway due to the rubber compound starting to perish

- I like being able to introduce the spare to use when buying new tyres and putting a brand new tyre in the boot

- I worry about making a emergency stop or manoeuvre with a space saver fitted, especially in the wet, or on snow/ice

- one serious tyre damaged in a car (Mk 3 Micra) that had oversized wheels and a tiny space saver - with four passengers and a full boot, a long way from home on a wet Saturday night, there was no way the luggage and the full size wheel we'd taken off was going in the boot (the spare wheel well was only just big enough for the space saver - the main wheel was nearly 3 times wider) - we ended up wrapping a muddy, wet wheel in Waitrose bags and wedging it between two rather miserable rear passengers!

In the last 10 years I've had:

- 1 tyre exploded - nothing left on rim by the time I stopped (so gel not much use!)
- 3 tyres failed and not safe to continue driving at any speed
- 4 punctures (nails/screws) that might/might not have worked with gel

So a having a safe spare wheel is something I'm quite (understandably IMHO) sensitive about!

If we do a separate petition as you suggest, maybe it would be better to wait until a little while after the existing one has finished?

[Sooty]

Well, went I went to the e-petition web site, I was planning to create just such a petition, but when I saw this one I felt a second similar petition running at the same time as this one would be counter productive.

Whilst my personal preference is for a full size spare and space to store it, I do concur with your reasoning and a space saver is certainly preferable to no spare at all. When I get around to my Europe trips, I plan to buy a full size spare and new boot under tray assembly to accommodate it, but it's not a cheap option at about £700 for the lot!

That said, there are issues I have with space savers:

- a trip up the M1 one evening on one limited to 50 mph was quite nerve wracking when it looked like I'd be rear-ended every 5 minutes

- 2 chemists who had worked for two different tyre companies told me that tyres should be replaced at about 5 years anyway due to the rubber compound starting to perish

- I like being able to introduce the spare to use when buying new tyres and putting a brand new tyre in the boot

- I worry about making a emergency stop or manoeuvre with a space saver fitted, especially in the wet, or on snow/ice

- one serious tyre damaged in a car (Mk 3 Micra) that had oversized wheels and a tiny space saver - with four passengers and a full boot, a long way from home on a wet Saturday night, there was no way the luggage and the full size wheel we'd taken off was going in the boot (the spare wheel well was only just big enough for the space saver - the main wheel was nearly 3 times wider) - we ended up wrapping a muddy, wet wheel in Waitrose bags and wedging it between two rather miserable rear passengers!

In the last 10 years I've had:

- 1 tyre exploded - nothing left on rim by the time I stopped (so gel not much use!)

- 3 tyres failed and not safe to continue driving at any speed

- 4 punctures (nails/screws) that might/might not have worked with gel

So a having a safe spare wheel is something I'm quite (understandably IMHO) sensitive about!

If we do a separate petition as you suggest, maybe it would be better to wait until a little while after the existing one has finished?

I fully agree with your comments.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

I still cannot see the issue here, If you want a spare then buy one, have to just factor it in, for the majority membership to a recovery service will be more than sufficient for piece of mind should worse case happen and you get a blow out.

If it really were that much of an issue, it'd be insisted upon by the EU etc, we all know what they're like for stipulating cars have needless features as it is.

Its very much a case of each to their own, but when you consider that most wouldn't know how to change a tyre (yes I know, we're the lucky few who know it really is a very easy task), I can actually see for most that having a can of gunk is a far better alternative for normal punctures.

[PeteB]

I still cannot see the issue here, If you want a spare then buy one, have to just factor it in...

I don't have a problem with that where there is still a space to store it securely, safely, and leaving adequate boot space.

You might like to see this, if you haven't already, about a Prius plugin owner's experience:

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/150738-plug-in-hybrid-lack-of-spare-wheel

The problem is that as models are revised or replaced, the next step is to leave no space for even a space saver.

This is already the case with the BMW i3 REX and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (in the latter, I wonder if the AA/RAC will come to your aid if you have a non-gunk-able puncture off-road!?). The Prius plug can take the space saver but it would need to be removed and replaced every time you load/unload something large into the boot - I'm sure my bad back will love that when I do my 2-3 month tours of Europe!

There was a time when the AA and RAC excluded calls due to a member's "failure to carry a serviceable spare wheel". A number of users have reported being told by RAC/AA patrolmen and operators that proving recovery to cars that could have been sent on their way with the spare wheel fitted is getting beyond a joke - will they think of surcharging for this at some time?

Then there is the issue with TPMS (Tyre Pressure Monitoring System) that nearly all new cars now have and will be mandatory from next year and an MOT failure if they don't work - many use tyre sensors that are wrecked by the gunge and would add £100-£200 to the cost of a puncture!

And I make the point about safe/secure storage of a spare if you buy one because in a crash I wouldn't want one loose in the car. Sure the rear seats may hold it, but it's a heavy object and could be lethal if the rear seats are folded down.

My first (Gen 1) Prius was written off after 6 months in a 40 mph crash, and my Satnav came off the screen and separated from it's mount and jacket, all the coins flew out of the coin drawer and shot around the car (luckily all missing me!). I also heard of a guy in the 1970s killed in a crash that should have been survivable because he was hit on the side of the head by a small, not particularly heavy item from the rear parcel shelf - ironically, it was a first aid kit!

I would definitely have bought a plugin Prius if it had space under the boot floor for a spare wheel (even a wretched space saver), and failing that the BMW i3 REX.

[FROSTYBALLS]

"Then there is the issue with TPMS (Tyre Pressure Monitoring System) that nearly all new cars now have and will be mandatory from next year and an MOT failure if they don't work - many use tyre sensors that are wrecked by the gunge and would add £100-£200 to the cost of a puncture!"

Tyre pressure monitoring systems became mandatory within the EU for all vehicles requiring new Type Approval from 1st November 2012, and for all new vehicles from 1st November 2014. Which is why TPMS's have been included recently on the Auris (which carried forward the Type Approval from the first generation Auris), and on the facelift Yaris. Other manufacturers will have made or will be making similar adjustments to vehicles Type Approved before 1st November 2012,

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I still cannot see the issue here, If you want a spare then buy one, have to just factor it in, for the majority membership to a recovery service will be more than sufficient for piece of mind should worse case happen and you get a blow out.

That works if you live in the South East or populated areas. There are two National Parks near me that are bigger than your county. Try waiting 3 or 4 hours or more on a Bank Holiday for the lone RAC or AA patrol to come out. It's not just people living there, but those visiting too.

I guess if people lived in even more remote places such as Northumberland, Cornwall, Wales or Scotland, then a spare is even more important.

The spare has lasted this long because it has a use. Nobody bothers with a set of tyre spanners like I guess they would in 1920, but a spare still has its use. Tyre monitoring systems are no use for blow outs or significant side wall damage. A slow puncture where the gunk will be of use can easily get you home or to the nearest air pump.

I just don't get this gunk nonsense. It's probably cheaper with the tyre pressure monitoring sensors now to not use the gunk but just drive slowly on the 6psi filled tyre, shredding it to safety. Hardly a forward step.

[Cyker]

I wouldn't mind a full-sized spare - It'd be a !Removed! lot cheaper for me to replace than a space-saver! (A tyre for my 175/65R14s is like, £40-50 for a decent one; The space saver is £70+! WTF?! )

The gunk is indeed mostly useless; In situations where it would provide any benefit, you could probably just over-inflate the tyre and get to a tyre place before the PSI dropped too low and then there is the possibility of a repair, rather than guaranteeing a new tyre will be needed with the gunk.

The gunk is useless for larger punctures and sidewall damage.

You can get another rim and tyre and just store it in the boot, but it is quite inconvenient in cars like Aygos and Yarisususesuess, where bootspace is limited, and it can give some insurance companies wiggle room (My current insurers have made it clear in the past that replacing my alloys with non-OE ones count as a modification and that'll be an extra £70 a year thankyouverymuch :censor: - Smeg knows what they'd say about an odd alloy!)

On a slight tangent, I wonder what happened to those airless tyres that Michelin etc. were so excited about?

[PeteB]

I still cannot see the issue here, If you want a spare then buy one, have to just factor it in, for the majority membership to a recovery service will be more than sufficient for piece of mind should worse case happen and you get a blow out.

.... Tyre monitoring systems are no use for blow outs or significant side wall damage. A slow puncture where the gunk will be of use can easily get you home or to the nearest air pump.

I just don't get this gunk nonsense. It's probably cheaper with the tyre pressure monitoring sensors now to not use the gunk but just drive slowly on the 6psi filled tyre, shredding it to safety. Hardly a forward step.

The main benefit I see from my TMPS is that it alerts me as soon as the problem starts.

It's already done this once, where a rear tyre started losing a few pounds over a couple of days, which I wouldn't have picked up until my weekly check before I had the TPMS - the tyre still looked normal (I still check, but because I've found it reliable, I check pressure less often, but still weekly for cuts, bulges etc). My dealer even repaired it free (it had a screw in it). It could be the difference between a repair and a new tyre.

The trouble with modern chassis and suspension is that they're too good in the respect that a flat tyre isn't always obvious to a driver even when gently cornering. I've wrecked two nearly new tyres over the years by driving on them after deflation, and didn't notice until I slowed down and heard the noise! I've also seen other people driving on completely flat tyres (the noise gives it away), seemingly unaware.

I do actually carry some gunk and a pump, but would only use it as a very last resort (fortunately my TPMS uses radio transmitting dust caps, so I can remove it if I ever use the gunk).

My preference would be to pump up and make it to a my dealer (or a tyre shop), limiting my speed and watching the TPMS to know if I need to stop again. Falling that, put the spare on, and failing that, the gunge.

[PeteB]

I wouldn't mind a full-sized spare ...

...You can get another rim and tyre and just store it in the boot, but it is quite inconvenient in cars like Aygos and Yarisususesuess, where bootspace is limited, and it can give some insurance companies wiggle room ...

or the BMW i3...

And if the car comes with no space saver, then it's either a full size wheel or deciding on a space saver specification yourself.

If you do that, how do you know what size is safe, what on earth with you insurer make of it, and what would happen if you were involved in a serious crash whist it was on the car?

The BMW i3 has 19" wide wheels that would fill two thirds of the boot (and cost £1100!). Even if you risk a smaller tyre, what would you do with a full size one taken off the car if you have to use the space saver and have a full boot?

[smalltalker]

Let's keep the government out of this. I don't want a spare wheel, and I don't want the government to legislate to make it mandatory. If the manufacturers don't offer it, it's because the market (the consumers) don't demand it. If there's demand for it, in a competitive market like car manufacturing, it will take very little time for a manufacturer to offer a spare wheel and get hordes of happy customers to buy their cars because of it. That doesn't happen, so it means the market values more a spacious boot and a cheaper price than a spare wheel.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Let's keep the government out of this. I don't want a spare wheel, and I don't want the government to legislate to make it mandatory. If the manufacturers don't offer it, it's because the market (the consumers) don't demand it. If there's demand for it, in a competitive market like car manufacturing, it will take very little time for a manufacturer to offer a spare wheel and get hordes of happy customers to buy their cars because of it. That doesn't happen, so it means the market values more a spacious boot and a cheaper price than a spare wheel.

Doesn't work in real life as certain safety features are mandated. I'm sure the 'let the market decide 100%' worked well in 1929, when you could get away with one headlamp on the drivers side, or no number plate lamp etc, but certain safety features are expected.

Where is the line drawn between the two? Should manufacturers remove expensive catalytic converters to save £500 a car? I don't care for one living in a town with lots of clean air, but I'm sure folk in London would complain when they choke on the fumes. Same applies with spares, you don't care for one as you live in a city, but not everyone does and thus a spare is useful to others other than just you.

[Chris Dance]

One reason I have just ordered a new 2014 Prius is that it does have a space saver spare as standard fitment.

I would have bought the PIP prius but no spare wheel or space to store it put me right off. I had a dedicated plug in point installed in my garage prior to realising the PIP had no spare wheel.

The Auris sports is OK as you can buy a space saver for it and it does have storage for it.

I have had to use a space saver once on a dark rainy night. It was a scary ride; driving at 40 MPH seemed pushing it and other drivers were tooting and flashing me. I also learned a lesson NEVER USE A SPACE SAVER ON THE FRONT. At least it got me home.

A proper spare wheel and space to store it is what most customers seem to want but any spare wheel is better than none. I would sign a petition for any spare wheel

I also think the new Gen 4 Prius will not come with a spare wheel. My mate has been told by his dealer all new models from Toyota will have no spare wheels.

My neice had a flat tyre on her new Vauxhall car on a dual carriageway at 1am. She found out she had no spare wheel and the can of gunge went everywhere and was useless. She had to have a recovery and she did not get home till 8am.

I am told Nissan are making a spare wheel an extra accessory on their cars. I do not know if new model Nissans will have spare wheel storage.

Folk who say a can of gunge will do me as I have never had a pucnture or tyre incident should realise it can happen to them. If you do get a split tyre and there is no spare be aware it can be a long frustrating wait at the roadside for recovery.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Anyone else think that carrying an air compressor would be more use than a can of gunk? If anything it won't ruin your tyre inside and if you have a split or sidewall damage or a blow out, neither a compressor or the gunk will be of use.

[IanIanIanIan]

I have modded my supplied PiP compressor so it may pump in the gunk and inflate as originally designed and also just pump air alone.

It was not too difficult but you need access to a lathe and a bit of engineering nouse.

Why it can't be supplied like that I don't know.

[RelaxedDrive]

Does the latest Lexus CT200 have a spare? I seem to remember a dealer recently mentioning this was something customer's had asked for so they were going to provide one in the latest model.

I have already has to use my spare and given I had to *order* the replacement tyre due to the funny size(so had a day or two without it), having the space saver was very useful for short journeys in the meantime!