Rav4 2007 Head Gasket

[Worried2]

Hi all

Just found out that my 7 year and 3 month old Rav4 has a blown head gasket. Have read some of the multiple posts on this forum on the subject since this revelation occourred. Mr T does not seem to want to help, has anyone in this situation had any joy?

Worried

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello Bob - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

You haven't said whether your car is petrol or diesel.

Presumably if it is diesel, you have seen the following topic: http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/132178-charliefarlies-guide-to-the-toyota-2ad-diesel-engine-and-its-issues/

In the case of the 2AD engine, Toyota offered a goodwill warranty covering cars up to 7 years old or 111,846 miles, whichever occurs sooner. As yours is now older than this, it is outside the scope of the goodwill warranty.

[gjnorthall]

Presumably this is a diesel? Is this a head gasket failure in isolation or are there other issues such as high oil consumption? Depending on what's gone on - this may or may not be the well known 2AD engine issue. Toyota's goodwill warranty extension has a very clear time and mileage cutoff, and based on cases similar to yours - dealers are required to apply the warranty rigorously - ie not a day beyond 7 years.

[Worried2]

Hi Guys

thanks for the replies.

The car is diesel.

I have had it just over a year and have always noticed a hint of coolant usage but was not overly concerned. Recently did a long trip 450 miles out and 450 return next day, no problems. But on the next cold morning had no hot air from the fan. Investigation showed loss of coolant was the issue. The car has 70k miles. Oil recently changed nice and clear, no emulsion. Local garage I use to service car confirmed head gasket after testing.

More Worried

[gjnorthall]

Presumably there's signs of coolant (white powdery stains) blowing out from the vent on top of the expansion bottle. Unfortunately a head gasket failure between a cylinder and coolant channel can only get worse (the passage of exhaust gasses opens up the leak channel). Does the engine use oil? The difficulty you face is that simply replacing the head gasket may not bring a lasting solution. The issue is that the gasket fails due to accumulation of carbon on the piston crowns - this in turn results from excessive amounts of oil getting past the pistons. The replacement engine fitted by Toyota has upgraded pistons etc. so addresses the root cause of gasket failure.

[Worried2]

gjnorthall,

Yes there are the signs of coolant blowing out the vent pipe.

No it does not seem to use any oil, but I have not been monitoring it exactly.

Mr T says he needs to take it appart to see how much work will need doing, at which point I become a hostage to fortune?

Do I need a worst case quote before proceeding? any idea how much that could be?

Thanks for the replies so far

Worried

[Doosan]

gjnorthall,

Yes there are the signs of coolant blowing out the vent pipe.

No it does not seem to use any oil, but I have not been monitoring it exactly.

Mr T says he needs to take it appart to see how much work will need doing, at which point I become a hostage to fortune?

Do I need a worst case quote before proceeding? any idea how much that could be?

Thanks for the replies so far

Worried

I had exactly the same symptom's as you have described about 21/2 years ago with 45,000 miles on the clock, resulted in a 3/4 engine being replaced by Mr Toyota.

Good luck

[gjnorthall]

A replacement engine fitted by Toyota would be £3000 in round numbers. The problem with Toyota doing any sort of work is the astronomical labour charge of around £80 + VAT per hour, whilst an independent would be around half this charge. Stripping down, possibly replacing pistons, skimming cylinder head etc would be getting on for £2000 but I would suggest getting a cost range for various scenarios from Toyota as a starting point.

There's many a Rav4 been PX'd in anticipation or with symptoms of the dreaded problem. The alternative view is that you'd spend maybe £2K or so on PXing for a similar car and if your Rav is a nice one, and you had a repair done - you'd have a good car with essentially a new engine. If you intended keeping the car for a few years - in the long term, a repair would be quite cost effective.

[Mistermena]

When my second Toyota main dealer engine rebuild failed it cost over 6k in warranty work! True cost to Toyota Japan is around 1600 quid! But lets not get into that one!...These engines can't be skimmed if carbon stamping has occured due to gasket shuffle! So the engine is scrap in real terms. Oil usage is one of the 1st tell tail signs of carbon stamping!... And as said! Toyota have modified the pistons to help stop this! But still mine went again after only doing about 8k!!!... such a shame with these originally built Polish engines! As when they are going well! They are a great power unit...

[gjnorthall]

Hence my question about oil consumption. In this particular case - it doesn't seem that oil consumption is a significant problem. If it was - there is a risk of significant gasket stamping - this leads to gasket shuffle and failure of the gasket. Unfortunately gasket shuffle can mark the head and it's not always possible to machine the damage and keep the head within tolerance. If this were the case - the head would need replacement!

There was also a problem with the long life coolant damaging the head gasket and leading to failure - though this is rarely the primary problem leading to gasket failure. A new type gasket was fitted from late 2007 which eliminated the coolant attack issue.

Important thing now is to get a view and cost estimate for the various failure scenarios - worst case would be a 2/3 engine replacement at around £3000.

[Worried2]

Hi Mistermena,

just to be clear, when you first engine failed you got a 3/4? 2/3? replacement and that failed as well? or had you had a rebuild/piston change and skim? and was the second engine under warranty when it went pop?.

Hi Gjnorthall

So there are a combination of possible reasons for this type of failure but the long and short of it is you need to change pistons which is a complete engine out job and either rebuild or replacement of engine.

Is there any history of this sort of problem from 2009 onwards or is the engine basically different and how do you tell if a 2008/2009 model has a 2AD engine?.

Hi Doosan

How many miles dose your new engine have on the clock now?

Im still searching for clues to help me through this, my old faith in Toyotas as being "bomb proof" has been well and truly shaken.

Thanks for you help guys it is much appreciated

Worried

[gjnorthall]

In the early days when the problem first raised it's head - the engine work was done at the dealers with mixed success - some repaired engines repeat failed. Toyota then moved to fitting 2/3 replacement engines with great success - I'm sure there are exceptions but the general experience by owners has been excellent.

All Rav 4.3 diesels have the 2AD engine. From the beginning of 2009 modified engines were fitted and there has been no reported issues from this date. There have been a couple of failures of 2009 cars reported but it transpired that these were 2008 cars which weren't registered until 2009 - so watch this particular point.

As you say - the bottom line is that pistons have to be replaced or a replacement engine fitted. The complication is the degree of damage to the engine which will only be evident when it's stripped - it may, in some cases, require the cylinder head to be replaced - not an issue with a replacement engine.

I have to say that I'd be a bit concerned about a Toyota dealer repairing an engine, though I'm sure there's variability between dealers. In the early days when dealers stripped engines - there are cases of the job taking 50 or so hours - if this were chargeable, you'd be talking of a £5k labour bill! - hence the recommendation to cost out all the possible scenarios beforehand.

Certain Toyotas are bomb proof but some engines are not! The 2AD engine was fitted to several other models and there have been significant problems with oil burning in the past on Toyota and Lexus models. The 1.8 petrol engine fitted to the likes of the Celica was very bad. Unfortunately these sort of problems don't often raise their heads in road report type reviews so it's worth researching areas like owners forums before buying any car. There's many cars that suffer from very significant issues but don't hit the headlines.

[Mistermena]

Mine were 3/4 rebuild at the dealer.

[Doosan]

Hi Worried2, My mileage is now reading 76,181 and is running fine.

Doosan

[battleaxe]

my 09 reg XTR, 08model had had a rebiuld @ 11000, i bought it with 16000, it burnt oil then but my local toyota garage tried to fob me off,

keep on at them and when it went in for the 20000 service, after completing the service one of the wise monkys came from the work shop and asked if I had noticed a niose on start up, then went on to tell me about the rebuild and with the oil issue they would get in contact about a 3/4 engine, now covered 16000 on motor it seems o/k fingers crossed.

B-A

[Worried2]

Hi Guys,

thanks for all the very useful information, i am paying close attention.

I will see what Mr T quotes for the various options. I am not that sure about a dealership rebuild, it strikes me that conditions in workshops vary and getting the engine back together correctly with no contamination is crucial to success.

I guess another question would be where do the 2/3 replacement engines come from?

What sort of warranty can I expect on a rebuild or replacement?

Thanks Worried

[Mistermena]

All the engines now come from Japan in order to maintain build quality! The old unit gets sent back and the dealer has to fill out a lot of paper work and get the engine gone within a time frame. You get a 12 month warranty with the new engine...

[gjnorthall]

It shouldn't really matter where Toyota engines are built or rebuilt - it's a global company operating to a corporate standard. Many diesel engines are made in Poland - petrol engines in Deeside, N.Wales. Issues are generally due to design rather than build quality. I'm guessing that a new engine or major engine repairs would carry a 12 month warranty - is it possible to purchase a Toyota extended warranty? - I'm sure someone can give a definitive answer.

Many owners who have had a new engine fitted have elected to fit a new clutch fitted at the same time - it's parts cost only - no additional labour. The rationale is that it's a sort of insurance against clutch failure in the longer term which would be £1200+ to fix.

[Mistermena]

I have a Genuine Toyota DMF and clutch kit for sale..,http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=161409493632

[Worried2]

Hi Gjnorthall,

does the 2/3 engine for 3000 include vat and fitting? I ask as I am not getting any where near that figure at the moment?

Worried

[gjnorthall]

There will be several on the forum who have had engine changes and will have the invoice for the work - I'm sure there will be someone happy to share. From the invoices I've seen in the past - the cost of a the new engine is around £1400 so together with 15 hours labour, a number of gaskets + consumables, it would come to around £3000 + VAT. What I don't know is if the engine cost is a charge-out rate to dealers - it's obviously easy to check the retail price.

[Worried2]

Gjnorthall,

thank you for the reply, it gives me a clearer grasp of the costs, not sure I understand what "charge-out rate to dealers" means but I am not in the motor buisiness.

Off to think about my options for a few days

Thanks again Worried

[mikis]

Hi Worried2

How are you doing.

Have you found a solution?

Are you still driving it?

I'm asking out of friendly interest and because I could be the next with such problem.

All the best

Mikis

[Worried2]

Hi Mikis

No solution yet, only using it for short trips.

Fortunately I do not need to drive to work etc.

Pretty sad situation really still weighing up the options

Worried2

[Devon Aygo]

The figure of around £3000 for an exchange engine is approximately correct for the cost from dealer to Toyota and would be significantly more as a retail price as the dealer will have a fixed ( see heavily reduced ) hourly labour rate and has to charge parts at cost + 7% when charging Toyota for warranty work.

Another big issue is Toyota do not allow the exchange engine to be sold as a retail part and will with hold the £3000 surcharge cost if a warranty claim is not submitted along with the return of the engine, as a retail customer you can only purchase a brand new engine £5000 + or repair with spare parts.