Abs Kicking In When Least Expecting It - Even On Straight Roads !

[BerksAV]

I have an Avensis Verso 2004 and over the last few months the ABS has been kicking when least expecting it. One would normally expect it to react in heavy rain and winter conditions etc esp when cornering acutely or at above average speed but on dry roads with little camber and only yesterday even on a straight road ... is especially worrying to the degree it has affected the way I drive the car (Im on edge every time I get to any corner now in any condition)

It started last year when in Holland but we put it down down to possible uneven road conditions in a windy leafy area at the time. It has however been rather crazy since July and of recent spent (2 weeks ago) a few days in Wales where corners and hills are very prevalent with some rainy conditions (but not too heavy) and it was kicking in 6 out of every 10 left corners and 1-2 out of 10 every right corner situation.

Any ideas if I am having a senser problem or a combination or tracking - steering - tyre deflation - alloy wheel deterioration (as they are quite rust pitted now)

I also get the odd misfire when taking some of the corners at a time when one puts on the accelerator to get out of the corner after the main turn. Not sure if this would affect it as well.

The other problem I have is of recent the car can experience a period of flat acceleration esp if being on a long motorway trip. On the way to Wales from Berks it happened about an hour into the drive and I could not get any response to the acceleration and in the end had to take a detour to a services area, turn it off wait a few mins and then try again. It was then Ok for the rest of the journey to our destination.

I appreciate the car is now 10 years old and will be expected to have problems but we have only done 80k and its been regularly serviced throughout.

Any help would be appreciated.

With the pitted wheels .. would it be advisable to look at buying a new set of alloys as Ive heard that alloy wheels do leak within the tyre enclosed area after some time and this may well affect the balance of the car in the above mentioned ABS problem. Boy do I have problems that sound expensive.

[Cyker]

Hmm... easy things to look at first - Check tyre pressures, tread wear and see if there is any scoring or uneven wear on the brake discs.

[BerksAV]

Thks Cyker .. have checked the tyres regularly and try to keep them at 33psi and there may be a problem with the front driver side as this leaked recently and QuickFit told me it was the alloy wheel that was leaking and they fixed that for £20 (or so they said they did) .. I check this from time to time and why I added about the alloy wheels .. Toyota want £250+ per wheel for a new one without tire exchange or fitting so it leads me to looking on a specialist wheel site if need be.

A recent Service (Aug14) from a specialist Toyoto fitter did'nt report any problems with the disc drums - all OK but the pads are O/SF and N/SF 90% and O/SR N/SR 50% ... brake fluid needs replacing .. Rear shocks leaking and that was about all.

[BerksAV]

Are the sensors reliable after a few years or do they need regular cleaning .. seems to replace they are over £100 each and there is one on each wheel.

If it gets really worse can the ABS system be de-activated at all ? .. by unplugging it somewhere or taking out a fuse ? thks again for reading

[Konrad C]

My understanding of the ABS system is that the sensor pickup need to be a specific distance from the castellated wheel. If the castellated wheel is misshaped, misaligned or damaged then that could send the wrong signal. May be there is a metal foreign body contaminating the sensor. A clean could help.

EPS sensors which measure G forces. May be over sensitive. The EPS is part of the ABS system. Another guess is the speed sensor which again is over sensitive. The ECU or ECUs that controls the EPS/ABS functions are faulty. A much deeper diagnostic may be needed.

[BerksAV]

Thks Konrad ... Wow very complex - Ill try have look for them underneath and try cleaning them and see if that helps. Ive had it put on a diagnostics check a couple of weeks ago but no fault codes come up. Happened again last night on way home on a slight left corner turn - very annoying and put you on edge all the time when one drives.

[BerksAV]

The problem still exits and now I have booked it into a main dealer for help.

Ive had the wheels refurb's - new tyres - steering checked - cables out and cleaned and still it happens .. now even on straight roads (and twice on the motorway) - very disturbing and affecting the way one drives (one is constantly on edge esp in new road areas)

The orange skid light keeps coming rather than the ABS light so assume that car thinks it is about to skid ???? who knows.

Now the car lacks power when changing gear out of a cornar or uphill .. so Ive been told this likely to be the turbo needing refurb - cleaning or changing .. is this a job we mortal men can do (or) another expensive trip to the garage.

[Cyker]

Did you ever check the brakes? Just have a look at the discs; They should have very narrow rust bands, maybe 5mm at the outer face and a bit wider nearer the hub. The rest should be scrubbed shiny iron.

I had an early-trigger ABS issue in my Yaris for a while which led to me crashing into a mini!

It turned out that the pads were only half-contacting the discs so I had to push the brake pedal quite further than usual, and in hindsight it was all that extra force - as I braked harder the brakes would lock, triggering the ABS.

The Toyota garage I'd serviced the car at only months earlier had said they were fine, with a advisory that the discs had some scoring, but they didn't even notice that the pads weren't contacting the discs properly so don't take everything they say as gospel. (I still don't get how they didn't see the inch thick band of rust around the outer edge of the discs if they actually looked at the discs; This should have been a clue that Something Was Not Right)

Had new discs and pads fitted, car went back to stopping like it hit a brick wall :D

(Well, until I put these Cooper CS2 tyres on... they have noticeably worse grip than the Continentals I had on before!)

I'm starting to wonder if it isn't an ECU issue tho' given the engine power loss as well; It could be the turbo, but usually turbo issues show up only when you're revving the car quite high (Deffo past 2000rpm), never at the low end.

If there is power loss below the turbo, it's usually the EGR/throttle body, but may also be the ECU backing it off to protect the DMF, but backing it off too much. Do you drive it hard? If you're driving it gently all the time, the power loss issues may be due to the injectors crudding up or soot building up in places (I am assuming it is a diesel as AFAIK there are no petrol turbo-charged Avensises?)

[BerksAV]

Thks Cyker ... this gives me some info to ask Toyota of Friday when I go see them but the front pads were replaced only last month and the rears in Sept but this has been going on for about 2 years now but getting worse each month and why the request for help !!

I do not drive hard - rarely over the speed limit unless on the MWay (max 80-85) but one has to to get thru a corner and up a hill or exiting a roundabout etc

Ill ask them about the EGR and ECU and what options I have without another mortgage

[Konrad C]

Derek, you need to add more details about you versa, like the engine type and spec level. Your last post you mention turbo, so you car is a turbo diesel.

This could explain a whole lot of issues and there may not be anything wrong with the ESP/ASB. Could be wrong or system related.

It sounds like the EGR needs to be looked at. When the EGR gets blocked, the EML/ESP/ABS indicators illuminate, and the car goes into limp mode.

You car does not show all of the signs but it fault could be related to your situation.

Have you had the rear hub bearing off to check the castellated wheel and make sure it is true. Are the front drive shafts located properly? These can effect how the sensors read the rotation speed.

You also mentioned ESP coming on occasionally. A diagnostic may pull a fault code and confirm what the real issue is. The dealer should do this and hopefully give you the answer you are after.

eBay or the breakers may be the solution if the ECU's are at fault. I recently changed my ABS ECU when it died.

Konrad

[BerksAV]

Wow Konrad - even more things to think about .. Yes I have the new all singing and dancing Avensis Verso 2004 Diesel T Spirit and wish now I hadnt got the ABS and VSC system at all - in fact with the emission warnings for 2020 coming from Boris now I wish Id never even got a Diesel in the first place .. just that we cant afford to upgrade nor change or car ... and why we are trying to sort these 2 problems out and try get another few years out of it before we have to move it on (if anyone will buy it)

The Car itself is a fantastic workhorse esp as a Family car but now I fear its getting old at 11 years although the mileage is still young 70k

Is the ECU easy to get at as I really think that is where the problem lies and its making its own mind up and thinking the car is about to go into a skid .. seems to always be a left turn or left canver in the road - rarely the right side nor turn. Derek

[BerksAV]

Sorry about the spelling my keyboard sticks as well .... cant win

[Cyker]

Oooh, it's only in one direction?

May be a suspension thing then... more things to check might be anti-roll bar and its drop-links, shocks and springs...

You did mention something about the rear shocks leaking; IIRC if they were replaced with ones that were too stiff it can cause understeer at the front? (Or was it too soft? I can never remember which way round it is )

[BerksAV]

I had the rear absorbers and springs done at the same time as the pads .. 1 month ago .. only rear though... as I said this started 2 years ago in Holland when touring and has got worse month by month so tackled the jobs that came up on the service lists first.

Just hope the Main Dealer is as knowledgeable as you Cyker but again they also dont add zero's to the bill afterwards.

[Konrad C]

Wow Konrad - even more things to think about .. Yes I have the new all singing and dancing Avensis Verso 2004 Diesel T Spirit and wish now I hadnt got the ABS and VSC system at all - in fact with the emission warnings for 2020 coming from Boris now I wish Id never even got a Diesel in the first place .. just that we cant afford to upgrade nor change or car ... and why we are trying to sort these 2 problems out and try get another few years out of it before we have to move it on (if anyone will buy it)

The Car itself is a fantastic workhorse esp as a Family car but now I fear its getting old at 11 years although the mileage is still young 70k

Is the ECU easy to get at as I really think that is where the problem lies and its making its own mind up and thinking the car is about to go into a skid .. seems to always be a left turn or left canver in the road - rarely the right side nor turn. Derek

Derek, don't worry about the 2020 congestion charge/ emission zone. How many times have you traveled in that area? Yes it is aimed mainly at diesel vehicles because they have different emissions which can be a health hazard compared to petrol. You probably knew this!

Now you have given more details about the vehicle plus the fault happens with a left turn or bias, I think the lean or yaw sensor is at fault. Look at the stance of the vehicle on a flat, level surface and measure the height of the vehicle, left then right, ground clearance and wheel arch to tyre gap. Use a spirit level the make sure the surface is level, the use the spirit level on a flat surface within the vehicle to see if it leaning to the left. If all is level then the yaw sensor is at fault. I have included a link regarding the yaw sensor.

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2004/picnic-avensis-verso/clm20r-armdyw/2_511220_015_/electrical/8414_abs-vsc#89183A

Again check breakers/Ebay to keep costs down.

Hopefully this will be the fix.

Konrad

[BerksAV]

Thks yet again Konrad .. you guys are so knowledgeable it makes me feel a prat asking. I have looked at eBay but the items look well old and many have had the wires cut and then there is some risk in whether they work or are worse and then the part number has to be checked and Ive no clue where they are (I dont have ramps)

The car itself looks level but I get the picture as it happened on the way back home from dropping the boys off to School and the car did sway slightly on a left hand corner camber in the road and set the orange skid light off for a few seconds .. I was only going 34mph.

If I were a mechanic or an Ed China with all the gear and time and not needing a car for work 5 days a week I would have a go ... not like the old Ford Anglia days when all one needed was one spanner and a screwdriver .. its about torques and computer chips.and a hood full of tubes wires and heavy metal. I will print this off and take it to Toyota tomm and see what options I have with them and then I can discuss them with the guys that service our car.(they are ex Toyota mechanics from Slough who set up privately when they closed down a few years ago) Derek

[closchkutza]

Let me see if I got it right: the problem related to ABS/ESP is that on different road conditions, without the car showing any skidding signs, the ABS/ESP check-lights light up into the dashboard?

[BerksAV]

Thks for question Closchkutza ... just the orange skid light comes on .. no diagnostic faults found. Mainly when driving around a left curve and esp when there is any camver in the road surface. then they car kicks its ABS system into action - light comes on -alarm and the whelles are basically forced straight ... usual ABS stuff.

Recently on a holiday in Wales going to Nevis we encountered many curves and it was going off all the time .. it is very worrying and affects the way one drives as it's always in the back of your mind.

Toyota now thinks I need 2 wheel bearings and some steering unit needing replaced (over £1000) which would cause this type of condition. They have taken it out on a long test run but found nothing happened but then they dont drive it like the owner does .. we know our cars inside out. I can even name the road and the area IT WILL happen. rgds Derek

[Konrad C]

Toyota could be correct if there is play in the bearings and they have confirmed this.

The castellated wheel on the rear hub is fixed to the centre of the hub, so any play could cause the wheel to be off centre,causing a slight wobble. The sensor sees this as a speed differential.

Here are photo of a rear hub which is similar to your car:

To save money you can try and source the hubs on eBay and they are easy to change - 4 bolts after the brake disc/drum has been removed.

The front is different as the castellated section is part of the drive shaft. The front drive shaft sits through inner hub which is press through the centre of the wheel bearing.

When you drive the car it is fully loaded at high speeds on a left bend, could trigger the ESP. You need to drive the car with the engineer aboard to witness the situation. Did you give an empty vehicle to the garage? This would answer the wheel bearing problem.

[BerksAV]

Yes Konrad - an empty vehicle. Forgive my ignorance are these fitted to a wheel bearing or different parts to consider replacing if he continues to happen after the re-fit.

I have a friend who is a part time mechanic so I guess he could do these for me but the risk with eBay is that they are selling parts that have been causing poblems in another car and why they have been taken off in the first place (apart from breakers that is but they can never gnty they work)

[Konrad C]

Derek, new front wheel bearings are cheap. the cost will be the fitting labour, which should not be too much.

The rear hub bearing is a one piece unit because the ABS castellated wheel cannot be removed. These cost a lot more, but are far easier and quicker to change.

Worn bearing can effect the difference when a car is unloaded/loaded. But then tyres can also make the difference if they have been on the car a long time, and have internal structural damage that is not evident. A damaged tyre will squash more under load, making the speed difference higher, more lean angle, which the yaw sensor will notice. The sensor itself should be level within the car.

Obviously the sensors are okay and securely fitted in place!

Hope the cause is found and not too expensive.

Konrad

[BerksAV]

Thks Konrad .. Im having the wheel bearings done this week with this steering joint replacement (whatever it is) and 2 new brake discs but like most garages they dont tell you the breakdown until you get the bill (all I know is a rough figure of £1100) but then what choice have I got when Im not mechanical. They originally quoted me £1500 + £2200 - £3700 !!!! with Toyota parts)

Id love to change all 4 bearings and the items you mention and those shown in the pictures to know I have covered all bases but I cannot afford that. Maybe I can try and have a go myself but if I get stuck - Im stuck as I need the car for work most days.

I know I can buy the parts thru factors but the labour is a killer for us all and I guess one feels committed after they have spent so much time checking and testing the car as I would have to go find someone else who would do the work and trust them.

Ill let you know how the car is when I get it back sometime during the week. At least Ive got a loan car. Derek

[BerksAV]

Well guys - they did the steering rack and the nearside/offside wheel bearings and the car feels tight and responsive and - so far no ABS light.

It has also sorted out the lack of power as well although I haven't been too far in car as yet - so even though it cost a mini mortgage - so far so good.

Will wait a couple of weeks for a final judgement on both problems but fingers crossed. Derek

[Konrad C]

Derek, I don't need to tell you to keep all paperwork and receipts.

I would load the car and go for a high speed run as soon as possible!

My reasoning is that the longer you delay getting back to the garage, the harder it is to get things done with less cost to you.

You give the car a reasonable workout.

One question, the bearings must have had some play to affect the ABS system, and at least the MOT should have picked it up. Bearings can wear without being noisy.

Also some drivers are not aware of faults, others drive around them and some faults are hard to detect.

I hope this is the end if the saga.

Konrad

[BerksAV]

Thks Konrad - will be taking it for a long ride this weekend to Bristol and Wales and see what happens .. so far so good Derek