Approved Used Purchase - Advice Needed

[Reaway]

Hi all,

My first post on the forum - I am looking for any advice from forum members on an approved used scheme purchase I am in the process of potentially completing.

The car in question is an approved used 10 reg 1.8 V-matic Avensis with 34000 miles on the clock from an authorised Toyota dealer. I test drove the car last weekend and having been verbally assured by the Toyota salesman on the status of the car (i.e. he showed me an alleged printout confirming the provenance checks were all clear, a stamped log book and a printout of service details since the car was first registered) and not finding any obvious faults with the vehicle I put down a deposit for the car. I have only noticed on the way back from the dealer (stupid I know!) that the vehicle order form I signed after making a deposit states in (very) small font paragraph at the bottom of
the front page that "… The odometer reading is currently being investigated. The accuracy of the odometer reading therefore cannot be relied upon and should be ignored”!

Now, the vehicle in question is an approved used car and I have been in touch with Toyota UK before contacting the dealer for a clarification – Toyota UK advised me that the order form small print regarding odometer reading inspection does not seem to be a part of the standard definition of the order form for an approved used car. They did briefly check the vehicle details I was provided and have confirmed the car to be on their approved used register. The person I spoke to seemed to think that there is a small discrepancy between the actual meter value on the clock and that logged by the service personnel during last service performed in January 2015 (34500 instead of 34293) and suggested that this may be a potential reason for including the small print on the form however he could not provide any definitive explanation – his advice was for me
to contact the branch I dealt with for clarification.

I have earlier today sent an email to the salesman I dealt with when inspecting the car and making a deposit – I have asked for an explanation of the text along with clear information on provenance checks, whether the vehicle mileage has ever been corrected, copies of V5C form etc – I am waiting for his answer and will contact the manager directly at some point tomorrow if I don’t hear from the branch.

I am (was?) due to collect the car this coming Sunday but am beginning to think it may be better to postpone this until full documentation is provided. Seeing that the car in question is sold on an approved used Toyota scheme all the provenance/technical checks should have been completed before it was advertised – I am concerned that they would allow me to inspect the car, claim that all HPI/Experian checks came out clear and the details (including mileage) are valid (as one is to expect from Toyota’s Approved Used scheme?) only to state on the order form that the odometer reading is being investigated?

The car I test drove/inspected seemed to be in a good condition and apart from the above I did not have any reason to suspect any foul play – am I being overly paranoid or do you think there is a genuine reason for concern (should I pull out while I am only risking the deposit funds?) I did contact the UK Citizens advice line and was advised that this could potentially constitute a breach of contract as the goods have been misrepresented: the car is being sold on an approved used scheme hence all vehicle checks should have been performed before it was put up for sale and there should not have been any need for additional odometer check?

Any advice anyone can provide would be very welcome – apologies for a lengthy post!

[Parts-King]

It is a standard piece of text used on an order form and nothing to be concerned with. In days gone by all odometers used to have a sticker on with the same sort of text, what it basically means is that the dealer has taken all reasonable steps to ensure the odometer is correct. Of course your dealer can check by using service records, visits to other details etc etc. All very easy if the car is owned by a local person and visits the dealership regularly. The difficulty comes where there have been many owners with limited history. The mileage on this car is quite low, so will only have had 3 visits for service, so if the service book has stamps in it, that correspond with the service print outs, you dont have anything to worry about

Speak to your dealer and have him pull out all the documentation. You would be entitled to walk away with your deposit if there was anything out of the ordinary. Go and speak to them directly

Kingo

[Reaway]

Thank you Parts-King, you've made me feel a bit more positive about my potential purchase - there is however one thing that confuses me in this situation regarding the "The difficulty comes where there have been many owners with limited history." This is an approved used car that has guaranteed mileage, full service history etc. at the point of being put up for sale by Toyota (?) - the particular model I've put the deposit down for allegedly has only had one past keeper and has a full service history.

Regarding my query on the small print in the order form text the Toyota branch have sent me the vehicle documents scans (logbook service stamp page scan, V5C, a printout of a single HPI Check Results page etc) and have informed me that they will forward me the VMC (Vehicle Mileage Check) once they have spoken to the Toyota branch they received the vehicle from (apparently the vehicle I put down the deposit for was delivered from a nearby Toyota branch for a customer that changed his mind - the approved used vehicle was serviced/checked before sale in the nearby branch and not in the one I have negotied with).

As far as I understand Toyota's description of their Approved Used Scheme is of vehicle that have already been checked and whose details are guaranteed at the point of being put up for sale - I don't understand why an additional VMC check is neccessary at this point to establish the mileage of the vehicle, after I've already put down a deposit for the car having been presented with vehicle data claimed to be certified ? Surely this is a potential breach of contract as the vehicle should have been fully checked beforehand, with all the details I was told are bulletproof during the test drive/car inspection having been verified?

[FROSTYBALLS]

The one thing to bear in mind here, is that the contract of sale is between the customer and the dealer - not Toyota.

Toyota offer an Approved Used scheme via their franchised dealers, which comprises a standard package of benefits to the potential customer. So the main advantage for customers within the UK is that they have a standard used car scheme whether they live in Wick or in Cornwall.

It is the dealers who identify which vehicles they offer through the scheme, it is the dealers who undertake the checks, and it is the dealers who sell the vehicles.

The same scenario applies with any manufacturer used car scheme.

Any potential breach of contract is a problem for the dealer. So you need to enter into discussions with the dealer to iron out any potential issues, as the contract of sale is with them. If you don't get satisfaction from the salesperson, then involve the dealer principal.

If the issues aren't solved to your satisfaction, walk away.

[Druid Boy]

You may be overthinking this. The mileage stacks up against the service history although it seems the last guy to service it couldn't be bothered to put the mileage in accurately creating a small discrepency in the records. If you are concerned that you are buying a ringer then walk away but, to be honest, main dealers can't afford to sell bad cars. Their reputation & service is what brings people in and keeps them coming back.

[Reaway]

Thank you all for your responses - I have been in touch with the dealer and while they did not clarify the reasons for the controversial (in my opinion) small print regarding the odometer reading on an approved used vehicle they have provided me with full details on the vehicle and have put it in writing (email!) that they stand by the advertised mileage reading. I may have been overly paranoid but do still think that things could have been less confusing. In addition to the above they informed me that the vehicle mileage check results are still outstanding as this can apparently take up to three weeks - presumably the fact that all the hpi checks, full service history etc were presented and they are, as an approved Toyota dealer, happy to stand by the advertised mileage should mean that the VMC outcome is a formality.

[Reaway]

A few more details - I have just performed an HPI test for this vehicle and the results for NMR checks are pasted below:

ALERT - Data currently held on the national mileage register indicates that
there may be a mileage discrepancy on this vehicle.

01/Mar/2011 BVRLA 11,291 11,291

20/Jul/2011 NMR 11,293 11,293

20/Jul/2011 Manufacturer 15,852 15,852

06/Dec/2012 Manufacturer 20,320 20,320

24/Jul/2013 Manufacturer 23,771 23,771

02/Jan/2014 DVLA 34,000 34,000

22/Jul/2014 Manufacturer 30,782 30,782

02/Jan/2015 NMR 34,400 34,400

08/Jan/2015 Manufacturer 34,500 34,500

22/Jan/2015 Manufacturer 34,203 34,203

26/Jan/2015 Manufacturer 34,524 34,524

There is an obvious discrepancy in the mileage records between the DVLA taken on 02/Jan/2014 and manufacturer's records taken on 22/Jul/2014 (Toyota have noted down the mileage being more than 3000 miles less in July than in January).

I did notice that the hpi check printout the dealer provided did not include V5 check and an NMR check - the milege discrepancy may be a technicality that can be corrected but where there is smoke there can be fire - I presume that the smallprint on the order form I signed referred to this being under investigation. I understand that this may be a technicallity but am very dissapointed that the company operating on an offically approved Toyota Approved used scheme would not disclose this information to a customer and would knowingly not disclose it - especially after I directly asked them to explain the smallprint in detail (so much about this being a standard piece of text). I am looking into this with the centre principal at the momennt and have been in touch with Toyota UK.

Paranoid is not always bad it seems!

[FROSTYBALLS]

After separating out the mileage records to make them more easily read, the main issue seems to be with the readings in 2014.

DVLA records, as far as I'm aware, are generated from either MOT's being issued (where the current mileage on the day of the MOT is recorded), or when there is a change in ownership, and the previous owner notifies DVLA of the change (there is an option when notifying DVLA to include the current mileage).

The questions I would be asking the dealership include:

1. was there an MOT done in January 2014 - in which case the MOT tester may have noted the wrong mileage

2. was there a change in ownership in January 2014 - in which case the previous owner may not have been accurate in supplying DVLA with the correct mileage

As far as I'm aware, recorded mileage on MOT certificates can only be changed within two weeks of the certificate issue - so for an MOT certificate issued last year, that information is now 'set in stone'.

As regards the discrepancy for January 2015 - how long has the dealership had the car for sale? I would suspect the mileage figure noted on 22nd January is incorrect.

Again, the issue is really the dealer's problem, as any contract of sale is between you the dealer - not Toyota GB.

At the end of the day, if you're not happy, walk.

[Heidfirst]

the other thing that you know now (if you didn't already) is that your proposed car is an ex-rental car originally.

Rental companies don't always stick to service schedules which of course can potentially invalidate the Toyota 5-year warranty. When I was looking for mine I walked away from 1 for precisely this reason - there was a reason that it was super cheap for age/mileage & this was it!

Mind you I am guessing that there isn't much of that left (& that's assuming that it was first registered after June 2010 when the 5-year warranty came in.

[Reaway]

Thank you all - this is currently being investigated by the dealer.

I do understand forum members' inputs suggesting that 'if you don't like the goods you are free to walk' however (surely?) there is a larger principle involved here.

The approved used scheme as advertised by Toyota themselves (who licence dealers to become part of this scheme) clearly states that every vehicle has been HPI and/or Experian checked including Mileage Verification and a string of other things. Now, as an unsuspecting customer putting their trust in Toyota and their licenced AU scheme's reputation and then being in a positon where vital data have been witheld/not clearly communicated while being allowed to put down a deposit for the vehicle that turned out not to be HPI clear I can perceive this experience in two ways:

1) You don't like this - then walk! (the Approved Used Joe's garage Scheme treatment - at a premium price!)

2) Why is this scheme being officially advertised as being bulletproof, as licenced by Toyota (resulting in significantly higher prices for the AU vehicles compared to those sold by allegedly dodgy by default backstreet dealers - I am/was, of course, happy to pay the higher AU price for the sake of having a piece of mind and not having to even consider the option that an APU scheme transaction would require me to worry about the validity of the information being provided, including vehicle provenance data). Surely the AU scheme is not meant to operate this way - or am I just being (very) naive.

In any case, thank you all for your inputs and help - this has indeed been a learning curve for me!

For those that are interested, pasted below are the links highlighting the benefits of Toyota's AU scheme as advertised by Toyota UK themselves - Joe's Garage here I come ! ! !

(http://usedcars.toyota.co.uk/approvedbenefits.aspx?wflw=se_na_ap_vi&idx=0

and even more clearly here

http://usedcars.toyota.co.uk/approvedbenefitssub.aspx?wflw=se_na_ap_vi&idx=2&src=mrmBenefitContent&ifr=true&pos=VCR&h=490&w=620&x=0&y=0&tme=od-theme-1)

[Heidfirst]

My guess would be that those are the standards that Toyota set down & expect dealers to adhere to but are not directly responsible themselves for actually handling the mechanics of much of it. As already mentioned your contract is with the dealer & not with Toyota themselves.

Personally , I think that you've been unlucky to run into it but it certainly wouldn't be the first time that somebody has noted down a mileage incorrectly or had a figure transposed during data entry.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Lets have a look at the six benefits of the Toyota Approved Used programme, and how it compares to the Avensis you were buying (from the tone of the last post I presume you've walked away):

12 months comprehensive warranty - a minimum offer on all Approved Used cars. With your Avensis being a 2010 model, it would have come with either a 3 year/60,000 mile new car warranty, or a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty (if registered after June 2010). So the remainder of any new car warranty on this car can only be less than 12 months - so it will be offered with the Toyota Approved Used 12 month warranty.

Vehicle Exchange Plan - if you're not happy with the car, you can return or exchange it provided the car has done less than 500 miles since purchase.

My Toyota - an online service where one can register one's car and keep track of maintenance, car tax renewal, etc.

Vehicle Provenance Check - done through one of two companies, and a certificate supplied with every vehicle. The Provenance check looks at four things: mileage verification, no outstanding finance, not been stolen and not been involved in a major accident.

12 months Toyota Roadside Assistance - breakdown cover.

Toyota Approved Quality Check - done before sale, not before advertising.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As regards the Vehicle Provenance Check, the scheme doesn't describe when the Vehicle Provenance Check is done (ie before advertising the vehicle for sale, or before a likely sale). The certificate will state whether or not the mileage can be verified.

Presumably in your case the certificate will state the mileage cannot be verified.

As regards whether a vehicle has been involved in a major accident - this is reliant on accident damage being recorded by the Motor Insurance Database.

There have been incidences of cars having gone through a Vehicle Provenance Check, and later being found to be stolen or having accident damage - so the system isn't infallible.

At the end of the day, the links to the Toyota Approved Used Programme you provided don't describe the scheme as being bullet-proof. No manufacturer approved used programme will be bullet proof.

[Reaway]

Thank you very much for your detailed answer Frostyballs (and others) - it has certainly made a few things clear.

I have left the case with the dealer to investigate and have sent them the HPI report I paid for that comes up with a red alert regarding the discrepancies in vehicle mileage records - I am waiting for them to get back to me with an explanation/resolution to make a decision on what happens next. I do believe I have given them a generous opportunity to correct things by providing me with all the information on the vehicle (as I believe should have been the case from the point I entered the dealership and put blind faith into Toyota's AU programme) and full details of the mileage check they have initiated. I am also dissapointed that they would choose to hide behing the AU scheme and not inform me of the mileage records discrepancies during the negotiation process and would knowingly allow me to lay down a deposit for the car that is not HPI clear - the fact they would not explain why the smallprint regarding the inaccuraccy of odometer reading was included on the vehicle order form despite my multiple attempts clearly shows they were aware of the HPI check issues from the outset and chose not to report these to me while being happy to sell the vehicle at a high AU level price - this certainly does not resonate well with the advertised Toyota's Ichiban philosophy where customer is always meant to come first!

I believe that the detailed description posted above by Frostyballs provides a full explanation of critical details that are not presented to the potential AU customer - mod edit - there does not seem to be any on the AU Scheme benefits page though!). Anyhow, the paragraph below (quote from the post above) is what should be clearly displayed on Toyota's AU scheme benefit webpage explaining the details of the scheme to the unsuspecting customer:

""

As regards the Vehicle Provenance Check, the scheme doesn't describe when
the Vehicle Provenance Check is done (ie before advertising the vehicle
for sale, or before a likely sale). The certificate will state whether or not the mileage can be verified.

""

instead of the current

""

The following checks are carried out on every Approved Used Car either
through HPI/NMR or Experian/VMC and a certificate is supplied with
every vehicle:

• Mileage verification etc...

""

The current text on Toyota's website clearly insinuates that certificates of verification (clearly suggesting a positive outcome) will be provided. I would be extremely surprised if any potential Approved Used Toyota (or manufacturer X) customer out there would be as drawn to the scheme if they were aware that there is a possibility of purchasing a vehicle that is not HPI clear and if they were aware that what Toyota mean by 'certificates will be provided' means you may get a certificate that states that mileage is incorrect or a vehice was stolen etc. In my case this would mean purchasing a vehicle that has been 'Approved' by Toyota and provided with a certificate stating that "The vehicle odometer reading on the vehicle can not be verified" - you can not be serious??? (to quote the great Johnny Mac) . I would think that having such a certificate would take a significant chunk of any resale value of the vehicle when the time comes for me to pass it on to the next owner - not to mention that it would make the whole AU scheme look like a joke. While I can respect that there is no such things as bulletproof, I would think that expecting any customer to pay a premium price for an item that is provided with a legal certificate clearly stating that a critical feature of the purchased item is compromised sounds borderline ludacris.

To draw a crude parallel this would be similar to expecting a potential Rolex customer to walk into a Rolex dealership and purchase a used approved Rolex timepiece provided with a certificate stating "the authenticity of this timepiece can not be verified".

In any case I would like to thank the forum members for their advice and help - I do believe that my posts (while potentially somewhat paranoid) should make for a useful reading to any potential Toyota (or company X - I presume all operate on the same principles) Approved Used Vehicle. My advice to them would be to trust nothing they are being told and try and obtain copies of all the relevant vehicle documents to check against available records - critically do not trust the HPI check printout provided by the dealer and make sure you do one of your own. While there is no such thing as bulletproof the least you can make sure of is that you are getting a vehicle with all the relevant documentation being clear for the premium approved used price you will be expected to pay.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Lets be clear on the Toyota Approved Used scheme - the scheme provides prospective customers with a series of checks on potential purchases, and is similar to other manufacturer's approved used schemes. The Approved Used scheme provides purchasers with a certificate stating what checks have been undertaken and the outcome of those checks, and customers are thus made aware of any potential shortcomings with a vehicle's history.

The scheme cannot and doesn't promise that vehicles sold under the scheme will pass all the checks undertaken.

Any suggestions around how Toyota advertise their schemes need to be made to Toyota GB. On the Home page of Toyota Owners Club is the following declaration: Toyota Owners Club © 2015 | This Website has no association with Toyota.

Although it is possible that representatives from Toyota may visit Toyota Owners Club, it is not actually known whether or not they do.